Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry

[P95Carry]

I tell you what Michael .... If someone seeing you wearing that apparel .. even with the gun .... can think you look threatening .... then they gotta be crazy!

Some threat!!

I'm an ol' phart ... hair a bit long and straggly ... always jeans .. t-shirt . maybe shirt or vest over . plus cap .. probably look way more ''suspicious'' .... tho the white whiskers maybe ''de-scare'' things a bit!!

You're 101% normalcy in my book ... and some!

 

[YammyMonkey]

Might want to check out the Gun Owner's Foundation, it's an offshoot ot GOA, maybe my monthly donations will help you out, good luck.

 

[Esky]

I'll be praying for a big WIN.

Thanks, mate, you're fighting for all of us.

Esky

 

[mvpel]

Patience

The main thing I'm having to remind myself is to be patient. I know that the wheels of government bureaucracy turn slowly, ever so slowly - it took me months to win a speeding ticket case in California, and this situation is considerably more significant in its import than a simple speeding ticket.

I need to remind myself to avoid the urge to barge ahead, and give things a chance to soak a bit. Who knows, maybe the Manchester PD will admit they were wrong and update their training and procedures.

In the meantime, I'm working on gathering information that might prove useful - not only the 911 records, but I'm also making some plans to try to find any other witnesses other than the 911 caller and the store manager, perhaps by placing a newspaper ad or handing out flyers on Saturday night at the store (depending on Manchester ordinances about such.)

 

[eje]

Any civil rights/police misconduct litigators out there who could weigh in on:

1) what kind of remedies mvpel could seek in court?
2) what is the ball park amount of damages mvpel could expect to be awarded if he prevails?
3) how much in attorneys fees is mvpel facing if there is litigation?
4) are there any defenses the PD and individual officers would have?
5) what are the legal standards by which the officers' conduct would be judged?

I'm curious what the 911 tapes are going to say and also what are the PD's polices.

 

[Flyboy]

Finding Witnesses

In the meantime, I'm working on gathering information that might prove useful - not only the 911 records, but I'm also making some plans to try to find any other witnesses other than the 911 caller and the store manager, perhaps by placing a newspaper ad or handing out flyers on Saturday night at the store (depending on Manchester ordinances about such.)

A thought on finding witnesses: most stores (including BN) have "membership" cards that they use to track customers (in exchange for lower prices). See if you can subpoena the sales records for that night--you might find a few with club cards. Even without membership sales, you might be able to dredge for credit card recepits; you can look for the name/signature on the slip, or. failing that, go to the credit card companies to get the name of the account holder. If you can get this info, it would give you almost a tailor-made list of people to contact as potential witnesses. Seems like it would be a lot more effective than handing out flyers, trolling on Saturday night, etc., and hoping for a bite.

BTW, I'm new to the site; saw this case referenced elsewhere (packing.org, I think), and registered specifically for the reason of posting on this thread. Good luck with everything; you're fighting the good fight. I lost my job a week ago, but I'll see if I can't find a few dollars to send out there. Thanks for keeping us all updated on the case.

Incidentally, I might be moving to New Hampshire in a few years. I'm a member of the Free State Project, and they (we) picked NH as our state of choice about six months ago. You might post your story to some of their boards (or, with your permission, I'll do it); you'll find much support there.

 

[Grigori]

Sue the pants off em.

Make the department pay financially and i'm sure the department will issue some sort of statement to their offers about refraining from such behavior in the future.

 

[mvpel]

EJE - thanks for posing that question. That list includes some of the things requested in the application to the NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund. I'm working on that now.

Flyboy - We've thought of getting ahold of the Barnes & Noble Reader's Advantage records for that evening, but in order to get a subpoena you have an open lawsuit with a case number, and we're not quite to that point yet - we're sort of in "wait and see" mode for what the outcome of the Manchester PD's "internal investigation" will be.

And Barnes & Noble would probably fight it, making it rather expensive. Penny had good luck with a newspaper ad in another case, so that'll probably be one of the first things we'd try.

My wife and I are Free State "Pioneers," in fact - we joined the Free State Project in May or so, voted for New Hampshire, Vermont, and Delaware, and moved from California to New Hampshire in November 2003. We bought a house in Merrimack in January. I posted this letter and a link to this thread in the NH Misc section of the discussion boards over at the FSP website.

 

[Ironbarr]

Flyboy...

welcome to THR. If you are firearms inclined you'll find a wealth of experience here, some deep thinkers on other subjects, a bit of hi-jinks, and a few giggles.

But I must say that if my credit card outfit divulged my name without a court order, I'd 86 it. I'd like to hope they just don't do that easily.

Jump in and enjoy our company.

-Andy

 

[mvpel]

Many heartfelt thanks!

I'd like to extend my heartfelt thanks to the following folks for their contributions to the legal fund:

Paul Murray
Jay Kominek
7.62FullMetalJacket
Greg & Colleen Lyke
Chris Beglin

Thanks very much, you guys, it really means a lot to know you're standing behind me in this effort to hold the police accountable.

 

[JW2]

I would just like to thank you for what you are doing. As inconsequential as it may seem to some, we know how important it really is.

Cheers
JW2

 

[papercut]

Say, can someone tell me if open carry is legal in New Hampshire?

Oops, gotta run....

 

[12-34hom]

I think you're going find out that this will come back and bite you in the ass down the road.

I personally don't have a problem with what you're doing, if you feel its necessary, so be it.

Regardless of you're appearance or demeanor, a police officer can't know what's going on in you're mind or anyone Else's for that matter. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute.

Could it have been approached and handled better?

Most certainly.

In the times and political climate we are subject to for all the reasons we are aware of, some will over react; on both side of this issue.

12-34hom.

 

[buckmeisterq]

... come back and bite you down the road...

I think, actually, that it has already bit him. He was attacked for obeying the law, for doing nothing wrong, and for having no appearance of doing anything wrong.

Even if someone had a personal problem with what mvpel is doing, it is necessary that he do it. The Manchester PD needs to obey the law, just like we do. They didn't "over-react"- they broke the law. Period. If you get a speeding ticket, can you claim "over-reaction, officer, my foot just pressed the gas too hard..."

Regardless of someone's appearance or demeanor, a police officer can take 5 SECONDS to observe the situation before attacking and come to the only logical conclusion- no threat. A person having a gun and behaving in a non-threatening way IS NOT A THREAT. Open carry is legal in NH. We call it a God-given right.

In the times and political climate *** we are subject to *** for all the "reasons" we are aware of... yes, some will "over-react" and break the law. They should be punished. I wish we could be citizens, instead of subjects. Isn't that the way it was supposed to be? Citizens, not subjects?

12-34hom, may your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget...

 

[inGobwetrust]

papercut,

Open carry is certainly legal here in NH and in the smaller town where I live we do it all the time. I grew up in Portsmouth and used to open carry there quite a bit as well. I never had a problem with it and plan to open carry in Manchester next time I'm there.

mvpel,

Please keep me in mind if there's anything I can do to assist you whether it's a peaceful protest or handing out flyers in front of the bookstore. There are a lot of gun owners here in New England that are well-spoken, peaceful, professionals that are mad as Hell that our rights are being trampled and abused. Good for you for taking a stand!

 

[labgrade]

12-34hom,

"I think you're going find out that this will come back and bite you in the ass down the road."

If it does, there is certainly something very wrong at work here & will garner much more monetary contributions.

"Regardless of you're appearance or demeanor, a police officer can't know what's going on in you're mind or anyone Else's for that matter. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute."

According to the account, which I have no reason to doubt, our young gent was perusing books, while conducting a perfectly legal activity & I have no desire to put myself in the shoes of a cop. mvpel was doing nothing illegal in the least, & somehow we're supposed to "think like a cop" & jack this man up for a legal activity!?

No, nope, no thanks, & that's a police state = being jacked for legal activities. The LEOs had no business even asking him any questions, let alone what transpired. Try putting yourself in the shoes of the citizen.

Would one also expect to be "arrested/detained" for merely walking down the street?

Oops! the guy had a gun, it was perfectly legal, he was not acting in any overt method, so what the hell was the point of the detention?

"In the times and political climate we are subject to for all the reasons we are aware of, some will over react; on both side of this issue."

I heartily submit, 12-34hom, that we are not "in such times" except by those high-handed actions perpetrated by LEOs who over-extend their "powers" through their own over-reaction to perfectly legal activities.

If an action is legal, y'all can just bail out of our business, stay out of it & leave us the hell alone.

Got it?

& enough said.

 

[12-34hom]

Labgrade,

Got it?

Oh, yea, i most certainly do.

Open carry is legal in NH, but how many citizens are aware of this fact?

Certainly not the one who reported this incident.

If i remember correctly, the picture of this gent shows that his gun is visible on his person. For someone who is not aware of the carry laws in this particular state, it might be of concern to them.

After he was detained and disarmed, he never was handcuffed or arrested. He was berated & subject to simple questions then released with his firearm. He may have not liked the demeanor of the police or their questions, but when you are armed and out in public a little common sense goes a long way.

Open carry is legal here in Iowa, but you don't see anyone doing it. If you did, you would most certainly be visiting with the local authorities where ever you might be.

By the way, I'm a citizen first and formost, policing what i do for a living part time. This is the way i'm looking at this situation. I try and look at both sides of all situations, a rule that has served me well on both sides of this fence.

12-34hom.

 

[Jay Kominek]

Open carry is legal in NH, but how many citizens are aware of this fact?

When did ignorance of the law become any sort of excuse?

a little common sense goes a long way.

And what piece of common sense would've helped mvpel, here? Perhaps he needs to keep in mind that he is but a serf, subject to the whims of someone with a cell phone, and the police? (For whom ignorance bloody well isn't an excuse.)

 

[sumpnz]

I've been lurking on this thread for a while, but this needs comment.

by 12-34hom: Open carry is legal here in Iowa, but you don't see anyone doing it. If you did, you would most certainly be visiting with the local authorities where ever you might be.

And this is a good thing, how???

I live in AZ where permitless open carry is legal, and aside from at the range, I've not really noticed anybody carrying openly. But if I did, or if I was the one doing so, I'd be mighty pissed if some yokel called the cops on me for doing a perfectly legal activity.

How would you like it if I called the cops on you for disturbing the peace/inciting a riot (when you are really doing neither) by shouting political slogans in the town square just becuase I didn't like your opinions? What if I said a madman was raving about taking down the .gov when all you were doing was railing against what you thought was a unjust action being taked by the .gov. Would that justify you being tackled, forced out of the square and told off for daring to excercise your right to freedom of speech?

 

[Balog]

A note on open carry in Arizona. I've lived here all my life, and I've seen maybe five or six people doing it. But, when I've carried openly me-ownself (in places as varied as Walmart and McDonald's) I've never been hassled. And I probably looked a lot scarier than mvpel.

Lemme see, IIRC I was wearing black jungle boots, USMC digi-cammy pants, black shirt and an old boonie hat. Add in the muttonchops, scraggly goatee, and tattoos and I'd definitely look more like a criminal (and less like an accountant ) than our protagonist.

 

[P95Carry]

Forgive me chipping in - again.

Know what? Our biggest single PITA is ''attitude'' ..... the sheeple who seem to forget what is (or used to be!) OK .. and ''normal''... as well as legal. It's like it's become a lost art .... sorta insidious attrition thru disuse.

It's gotten to the stage now where most of us are too diplomatic to open carry anywhere and everywhere. Technically it seems ... as there is no law preventing such .. open carry is ''legal'' here in PA. In effect, I open carry when I go the mail box but then that is not far off the property.

I would like to open carry elsewhere quite often but ... sheeple have reached such a nadir of ignorance and hysteria potential that regretably it seems ''hardly worth the hassle''. Maybe thru age or simply lack of testicular fortitude - I ''play safe'' .. and stay concealed, but sure as heck wish I had both options to suit my choice, just sometimes. Freedom of choice.

I am totally with the likes of mvpel .. and fully support his right to open carry .. and the case in question.

 

[12-34hom]

Sumpnz, it's neither a good or a bad thing, that's just the way it is. if you or others want to put a spin on it; that's you're business.

You're analogies are irrelevant to the incident in question.

What piece of common sense would have helped Mvpel?

By keeping his firearm concealed from view of general public, this incident would have never taken place. How is his or families safety compromised by totally concealing the firearm he carries on his person?

JK;

He should keep in mind that he is but a serf

My response = You're words not mine.

I also respect his right to open carry, i just question his judgement in doing so.

12-34hom.

 

[ScottS]

I have to agree with 12-34hom on this. How many times hasn't a "Man with a gun, quietly sipping a latte in a bookstore" gone bad. Why, you hear about it every other day. For all those cops knew, he could have been a Blood or Crip, quietly enjoying a book, because you hear all time about those gangbangers hanging out at the Barnes and Noble. Big readers, I've heard.

The problem with too many LEO's is they start to look at everyone as "perp's" and forget just who they work for.

Scott
Legal Fund Contributor

 

[12-34hom]

Scott, you're sarcasm is a moot point.

How many times has a "man with a gun" in a bookstore quietly sipping a latte gone bad

That's easy to say, sitting in front of you're pc not having to confront this or any other person who has been reported armed and not knowing what his mindset or demeanor happen to be.

Can you tell be just looking? i suggest to you; look at the in car video of Trooper Mark Coates [who was killed on duty], just to see how fast a call can go bad on a traffic stop or anywhere else you might happen to be. I have seen it, and it is scary how a person can turn on you in the blink of you're eye.

12-34hom.

 

[JW2]

Maybe we should start treating everyone as possible criminals and dealing with them as such, because you never know what may happen...