Self defense handgun choices and why.

[brutus51]

Opinions vary and what ever melts your butter pleases me plumb to death. I personally have a dislike for anything measured in sillymeters and find the 38 Super far superior to the 9mm but that's just my opinion. I also refer to the 10mm as the .40 Super and was disappointed when the 6.5 Creedmoor wasn't named the .256 Creedmoor but that's just me.
As I stated the Super is everything the wannabes would like the 9mm to be, except for the capacity issue and in my humble opinion so many bullets are unnecessary if you can shoot worth a darn. A point well taken in a world where spray and prey has taken root in our society.

 

[Tony50ae]

For me my CCW and HD guns share a common thing. No safety. On my night stand it usually is a K frame with 38+p or my CCW J frame w/laser with same rounds. However I have had my S&W SD9VE on my nightstand sometimes. Some don't care for the trigger, but since I shoot revolvers the trigger is fine for me.
Now that I have my Springfield Hellcat as my new CCW, it might just pull double duty.
Normally not in the woods but I guess still would carry my Hellcat and maybe strap on my Ruger Vaquero in 357.

 

[Kleanbore]

I personally have a dislike for anything measured in sillymeters and find the 38 Super far superior to the 9mm but that's just my opinion.

Superior in what practical way?

We are discussing self defense here.

 

[Kleanbore]

, except for the capacity issue and in my humble opinion so many bullets are unnecessary if you can shoot worth a darn. A point well taken in a world where spray and prey has taken root in our society.

Are you saying that you think that you can deliberately shoot and hit the critical small body parts hidden in an opaque, moving, three dimensional body that is charging?

 

[Kleanbore]

For me my CCW and HD guns share a common thing. No safety.

Years ago that would have been anathema to me.

No more.

 

[brutus51]

In my experience I have found that the short powder column of the 9mm case is detrimental to its accuracy potential. I discovered this when transitioning from the 40S&W to the 40 Super (10mm). The larger powder column allows for more diverse choices in powder selection. Keep in mind I’m a target shooter first and accuracy is always the top priority, I come from a one shot one kill family. Venison doesn't taste so good with 17 rounds of lead in it.

 

[sisyphus]

CZ 75 D and Dan Wesson Vigil CCO. As a nod to capacity I carry a spare magazine when I carry the DW, for just in case.

 

[brutus51]

Are you saying that you think that you can deliberately shoot and hit the critical small body parts hidden in an opaque, moving, three dimensional body that is charging?

Nope not with pistol or rifle but I do accomplish it somewhat regularly in the pheasant field, if I didn't my Springer would be looking for a new home.

 

[Kleanbore]

In my experience I have found that the short powder column of the 9mm case is detrimental to its accuracy potential.

For self defense--the subject of the thread--that is inconsequential.

Keep in mind I’m a target shooter first and accuracy is always the top priority, ...Venison doesn't taste so good with 17 rounds of lead in it.

For target shooting, that's fine. Target shooting and defensive shooting are very different.

I come from a one shot one kill family

That won't work in self defense.

And remember, killing is not the objective.

 

[Kleanbore]

CZ 75 D and Dan Wesson Vigil CCO.

They both have excellent reputations.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I don't need a "tack driver" for most SD.

If one goes by every study i have ever read then this is very true. Numbers vary but the usual numbers are 80-90% sd situations are under 21 feet. I have never met a handgun that would have any problem hitting even a rather small target at 7 yards. Even the small Derringers ive fired (but never owned or wanted) are plenty accurate for 21 ft More important IMO is being able to control and fire quickly. Most cant. And most worry more about the gun or the cartridge than they do about getting better at using it.


As far as cartridge is concerned. I think that, like accuracy, it is over stated for concealed carry. If you can do your part quickly then its a fine choice so long as it the common duty calibers. The difference in 9mm, .40, 357 sig, 45 etc is negligible IMO. I feel like bullet choice is more important than caliber. A 10mm fmj is less desirable than an HST or similar from a 9mm for SD in my opinion. Ive chosen speed over power myself, to a point at least. I used to carry a 10mm glock. Now I carry a .40. I would have no issues if it were a 9mm. I do have the 5.7 which I can fire faster and more accurate than any of my others but I dont feel like its an ideal sd round.

I have a 226,229, and the 220. I love the design and they are great guns. I used to carry the 229 some and may well decide to again someday but they are quite heavy. I also don't care for DA/SA for SD. I carry a Glock 27. Only gives up 3 rounds to my 226/229 (12 rounds in .40) with the 27 mags. And gains rounds with 23 or 22 mags.

 

[Kleanbore]

The difference in 9mm, .40, 357 sig, 45 etc is negligible IMO.

And in the opinion of the people at the FBI Training Academy at Quantico.

That speaks to terminal ballistics. The differences manifest themselves in controllability in rapid fire.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I also prefer to carry the same one for the most part. That's one reason I choose Glock even though I own more brands. I can carry my 27 all year or if the mood strikes me or I'm traveling in fall or winter I can carry one of my full size Glocks. Same feel. Same sights.. Practically the same gun. I can also deer hunt with my 10mm Glocks which I used to do more often. Admittedly I've pretty much gone back to revolvers for hunting.

 

[Kleanbore]

I also prefer to carry the same one for the most part. That's one reason I choose Glock even though I own more brands. I can carry my 27 all year or if the mood strikes me or I'm traveling in fall or winter I can carry one of my full size Glocks. Same feel. Same sights.. Practically the same gun.

That eliminates a disadvantage that some people seem to accept.

 

[crestoncowboy]

And in the opinion pf the people at theFBI Training Academy at Quantico.

That speaks to terminal ballistics. The differences manifest themselves in controllability in rapid fire.

Did they study the 5.7x28 at all or did they not consider it viable to begin with. Obviously they never carried it but Ive seen a lot of scattered data and not much of any value IMO. Most of that data was with the original ss90 ammo rather than the ss 197. But the accurate rate of fire is pretty much how fast you can reset the trigger. And accuracy is exceptional. I use mine for varmint control personally. I feel like its perfect for that. It even has the V-max as its factory ammo from FN/Hornady. I wouldn't choose it for SD as my first choice (or second. Or fifth) but it is certainly fast and accurate.

 

[sisyphus]

CZ 75 D and Dan Wesson Vigil CCO. As a nod to capacity I carry a spare magazine when I carry the DW, for just in case.

I never gave the why. They're both lovely guns and a joy to shoot. Feel just so in hand. The CZ has never malfunctioned on me, and the DW only did the first time out because I ASSUMED it was good and oily out of the box like my other DW. It wasn't, and when I got home frustrated by failures on its maiden trip I found that it had come to me from DW pretty dry. Every subsequent outing it's been flawless, so that first time is on me for not checking. I know both of these guns are going to function, the ergonomics and aesthetics are just gravy.

 

[murf]

home: glock 30, glock 19, lcp II

reason: i shoot them well, reliable

concealed carry: glock 30, glock 19, lcp II

reason: i shoot them well, reliable

woods: glock 30, glock 19, lcp II, 45 cal. blackhawk

reason: i shoot them well, reliable, the blackhawk for tent camping in yellowstone nat. park

note: the lcp II stays in my pocket pretty much all the time (pants are lying by the bed ready to go at night).

murf

 

[.455_Hunter]

Carrying only one gun or only one type of gun is an illusion.

My defensive carry needs can very widely across the same day- from very discrete carry in a NPE (policy restricted, not legally restricted) to working outdoors on our property in prime bear and cat country.

The 4" 629 appropriate in the later scenario would be a non-starter in the former, while the NAA product perfect for the former is a joke in the later.

A true "master of arms" should be able to effectively carry and deploy ANY common defensive weapon platform.

 

[AK103K]

Carrying only one gun or only one type of gun is an illusion.

My defensive carry needs can very widely across the same day- from very discrete carry in a NPE (policy restricted, not legally restricted) to working outdoors on our property in prime bear and cat country.

The 4" 629 appropriate in the later scenario would be a non-starter in the former, while the NAA product perfect for the former is a joke in the later.

A true "master of arms" should be able to effectively carry and deploy ANY common defensive weapon platform.

I agree totally with the last line above. Many seem to be one gun "specialists", and what they carry is the only one that could possibly be the best.

That said, I do carry one, sometimes two of the same make/type, and do so on a daily basis. I never thought the idea of constantly switching up, was a good idea. Same gun(s) same place, all the time, makes the most sense to me. Doing otherwise simply asks for trouble, and when you dont need any more trouble in the moment.

Dont misunderstand here though, just because I only carry one type, doest mean I dont shoot the others on a regular basis in practice. I think everyone should have at least one of each of the different types (and a good holster for each) and be very familiar with them. That way, if you need to pick up something you dont normally use, its not something youre unfamiliar with.

With all the different carry options available today, its hard to imagine, you cant find something that will work for you, no matter what you choose to carry. Ive carried full sized handguns, and often a BUG as well2 concealed my whole life, and never had a problem doing so. Much of that was in NPE's too.

When I started, there werent a whole lot of options available, and I still didnt have any trouble making it work. We really didnt have a whole lot to chose from gun wise either, so you learned to figure it out if you wanted to carry any kind of realistic gun. I dont see that anything has changed there either.

 

[Kleanbore]

A true "master of arms" should be able to effectively carry and deploy ANY common defensive weapon platform

That sounds good.

And it is true if the carrier is consciously aware of the characteristics. of the firearm.

At the range, he or she is so aware the instant the gun is placed on the bench.

But we are speaking of self defense.

in concealed carry, where the gun is several levels of consciousness below most of that one is doing, one is not always aware of that he has strapped on--unless it is always same gun.

If one carries the same thing every day, it doesn't matter.

If one carries firearms that are very similar, such as different Glocks, it doesn't matter.

But if one carries a Glock on some occasions, a 1911 on others, a gun with a slide-mounted safety in others, and so on, it will matter.

It is not a matter of being a "true master". It's a matter of having to detect what firearm one is carrying when drawing and remembering how that one works.

That's not important at the square range, but in the stressful moment of an SD encounter, it can slow the first shot, or leave the defender wondering why his gun did not fire at all, at a very, very bad time.

That's not untested theory. It can be shown via controlled scientific experiment.

But one need not do that with firearms to know it. The same kinds of tests have been conducted using all kinds of mechanical devices.

These principles influence the design of aircraft displays and controls, of safety cut-off switches, car stuff--you name it

Long ago, they led to the adoption of the PRNDL transmission selector quadrant as the standard on all cars with automatics.

Anyone who has ever studied human factors engineering understands these things. I still remember a good bit of it, many years later.

Some years ago, the president of an aircraft company assumed the position of CEO of an automobile company. He decided to drive every model they made.

When he found that the wiper and washer controls, automatic headlamp switches, instrument panel lighting controls, parking brake controls, and so on differed among models, He found that to be a significant safety issue. It became an agenda item at an executive meeting.

It was not an item for discussion. People left with clear direction.

Some of us who had worked under the man had some fun imagining the nature of the meeting.

Some things are just basic.

 

[sisyphus]

or if you handle two different platforms a lot, shoot them both a lot, carry them both a lot, perhaps the feel of one or the other in your hand is all it takes for your body to know what you're holding. I think you're making it too complicated, I think the body takes over and this doesn't occur on the level of conscious thought, anymore than anything you've trained in does.

 

[sisyphus]

the one good argument I take from this is that someday the potential exists for the 1911 safety to be a problem for me. That is why I appreciate the decocker. Atrocious first pull, but it's ready to roll and safe to carry.

 

[AK103K]

The idea is to handle and shoot as many as you can as much as you can, but youre still going to be the best with what you shoot and practice the most with.

Switching up to match the outfit, especially if the gun isnt in the same place all the time, is a big time bad idea, even if you are up on the others.

 

[.455_Hunter]

That sounds good.

And it is true if the carrier is consciously aware of the characteristics. of the firearm.

At the range, he or she is so aware the instant the gun is placed on the bench.

But we are speaking of self defense.

in concealed carry, where the gun is several levels of consciousness below most of that one is doing, one is not always aware of that he has strapped on--unless it is always same gun.

If one carries the same thing every day, it doesn't matter.

If one carries firearms that are very similar, such as different Glocks, it doesn't matter.

But if one carries a Glock on some occasions, a 1911 on others, a gun with a slide-mounted safety in others, and so on, it will matter.

It is not a matter of being a "true master". It's a matter of having to detect what firearm one is carrying when drawing and remembering how that one works.

That's not important at the square range, but in the stressful moment of an SD encounter, it can slow the first shot, or leave the defender wondering why his gun did not fire at all, at a very, very bad time.

That's not untested theory. It can be shown via controlled scientific experiment.

But one need not do that with firearms to know it. The same kinds of tests have been conducted using all kinds of mechanical devices.

These principles influence the design of aircraft displays and controls, of safety cut-off switches, car stuff--you name it

Long ago, they led to the adoption of the PRNDL transmission selector quadrant as the standard on all cars with automatics.

Anyone who has ever studied human factors engineering understands these things. I still remember a good bit of it, many years later.

Some years ago, the president of an aircraft company assumed the position of CEO of an automobile company. He decided to drive every model they made.

When he found that the wiper and washer controls, automatic headlamp switches, instrument panel lighting controls, parking brake controls, and so on differed among models, He found that to be a significant safety issue. It became an agenda item at an executive meeting.

It was not an item for discussion. People left with clear direction.

Some of us who had worked under the man had some fun imagining the nature of the meeting.

Some things are just basic.

Yes- We are talking about self-defense.

I will stand by my statement that a person should be familiar enough with a full-spectrum of handguns so that they can effectively deploy ANY of them in a defensive encounter, whether a Model 10 S&W, Ruger Vaquero, Beretta 92, 1911, or common polystriker (ugh).

Limiting yourself to one platform is a self-imposed fallacy that sounds good, but fails in the large variety of real-life defensive scenarios.

To use your analogy, I am perfectly comfortable operating my manual transmission vehicles just the same as my automatic vehicles. I don't need everything to be exactly the same just to safety drive down the road and instinctively react to an incident.

You are free to disagree, like we frequently do, but I am not going to engage in a continued back and forth on the topic.

 

[Kleanbore]

I will stand by my statement that a person should be familiar enough with a full-spectrum of handguns so that they can effectively deploy ANY of them in a defensive encounter, whether a Model 10 S&W, Ruger Vaquero, Beretta 92, 1911, or common polystriker (ugh)

"Being familiar with a full spectrum" is not the same as being able to draw one item at random from the spectrum and using it equally.

Do you have any objective basis for believing that a person will be familiar enough?

Have you gone through a sufficient number of different realistic FoF encounters to understand what "effectively deploy" really means in self defense?

To use your analogy, I am perfectly comfortable operating my manual transmission vehicles just the same as my automatic vehicles.

Being "perfectly comfortable" doesn't mater. It's what happens in an emergency that counts.

I don't need everything to be exactly the same just to safety drive down the road and instinctively react to an incident.

No, and I don't know what you think you need, but accident reports have shown that drivers who happened to be driving "the other car", even if they have driven it a lot, can do the wrong thing when reacting to an emergency.

Again, this is basic stuff, supported by scientific study, and it is part of the well-understood subject of human factors engineering.

I have to wonder why you insist on denying it.