Self Defense Single Shot Shotgun

[MacAR]

You can't short shuck a spear or a BP musket either. Folks make cases for all kinds of guns.

This a fair assessment. And an honest one, too. Because at end of the day:

If it's a gun that works and shoots something, it may save your life.

Basically where my thoughts were going, but your wording is (appreciably) much clearer. Essentially, we pay our penny and take our chance with what we have.

Mac

 

[bannockburn]

I have one single shot shotgun, a Marlin 200 12 gauge, with a 28" barrel with a Modified choke. It's just used mostly for busting clays at a friend's backyard range and as a back-up (that is to say a distant back-up), for hunting waterfowl. It will never be used in any sort of home defense situation nor will it ever be modified into some sort of tactical weaponry. I have much more capable shotguns for that job, should the need arise.

 

[Jim Watson]

Times change.
The shotgun is no longer seen as a "scattergun" where a couple of buckshot might well cause an assailant to change his mind... and maybe later die of gangrene.
Now we are told that we are legally liable for every individual piece of shot and therefore should not shoot at an enemy any farther than the whole pattern will stay on his body. If he looks farther away than that we should do the "select slug" ritual.
Ick. That turns the shotgun into kind of a low capacity repeating musket.
While I have a home defense shotgun, and not a single shot; I think a carbine would be a better choice if reequipping.

 

[.38 Special]

As always in the "capacity wars" I will point out that most researchers who have studied the issue have found that "the mere presence of a gun" is enough to deter the great majority of gunfights before they start.

Beyond that, it is worth noting that the oft-mentioned "multiple determined attackers" scenario seems to be one of the rarer self-defense situations. I'm aware of very, very few instances where the attackers kept coming even after the intended victim started shooting.

Most if not all of us would prefer more than one round on tap in a defensive gun. The bombast about single shots (or doubles, or five shot revolvers, or single stack autos, or...) being next to useless is misplaced, though, and I'd be happy enough if it stopped showing up in this sort of thread.

 

[GEM]

I wish people would stop misinterpreting the issue. It is whether or not you have the capacity for the average. The average is no shots fired, so have no ammo. The deterrence factor of the gun works most of the time. However, the idea is to have the ability to deal with an incident more in the extremes. More than one opponent - and that does happen. A person or persons that are economically motivated and won't be deterred.

This is not bombast and the denigration of folks who go beyond the so-called average would be a great benefit to the forum if it ceased.

 

[entropy]

If it were a case of using a single shot rifle to hunt with-that makes more sense. Worst case scenario-you don't eat venision that year. And you won't get a shot at the second deer if there is one anyway. There is always next year. Betting your life on one shot in an HD situation is only a better option than having no shots available. If that second attacker is armed and continues to engage......yourr choices become extremely limited. There may be no next time. We don't respawn IRL.
If you live alone and choose to use a single shot for HD, you have made the choice for yourself. If you live with others and do so, what does that say about how you value their lives?

 

[GEM]

This is like a Dunning-Cowboy-Kruger effect. Folks tend to overestimate their shooting ability. An Army study found that 75% of the soldiers tested overestimated their scores on M-16 qualifications. Folks see Clint Smith run a single or double gun under low stress plates and think, wow - I can do this.

Guess what, you can miss with a shotgun. Watch and/or try shotgun competitions. Folks miss. I know I have. So you can miss your average single opponent.

Let's cut the crap, unless you are virtue signaling, COS player or doing the Dunning-Kruger delusion - there is no reason to primary a single shot shotgun unless finances limit you. That was one of Clint Smith's points by the way.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

This is like a Dunning-Cowboy-Kruger effect. Folks tend to overestimate their shooting ability. An Army study found that 75% of the soldiers tested overestimated their scores on M-16 qualifications. Folks see Clint Smith run a single or double gun under low stress plates and think, wow - I can do this.

Guess what, you can miss with a shotgun. Watch and/or try shotgun competitions. Folks miss. I know I have. So you can miss your average single opponent.

Let's cut the crap, unless you are virtue signaling, COS player or doing the Dunning-Kruger delusion - there is no reason to primary a single shot shotgun unless finances limit you. That was one of Clint Smith's points by the way.

Virtue signaling... are you just trying to use buzzwords to sound relevant?

 

[mavracer]

I think the video goes way farther to show that training with your chosen weapon is important, than a single shot is a good choice.
IMHO a pump shotgun is a terrible idea for a guy that shoots shotgun sports with an auto all the time.

 

[Odd Job]

I agree with GEM. I've done some shotgun courses (a while back, mind you) and I recall feeling fairly vulnerable on reload. And that was with a pump which I was using to cover a doorway whilst reloading the tube.
There is a lot that can go wrong with a single shot:

1) That first (and only shot) misses
2) That first (and only shot) hits the target but doesn't neutralise it
3) That first (and only shot) hits and neutralises the target but there is a second target

The other variable applies to pumps also: it is difficult to train for the level off stress you will face if you have to fire in anger. The closest we got was the trainer did a few things that wouldn't pass a health and safety review if you follow my meaning. That was enough to get me to short cycle with a pump. Probably if it was me I would pick a reliable semi-auto. But if it came to a pump or a single shot I would take the pump any day.

 

[mountaindrew]

Regarding speed with a single, I have been known to shoot doubles with my 20 gauge identical to the one in the picture (sans mods) One can get fast with practice. If I remeber, I shot at least 10 rounds of doubles without letting a clay bird hit the ground. Hit one on the way up, reload, hit the other on the way down. I can sustain a rate of fire of less than one second per shot, at least until my vest pocket is empty. Not blazing Tactical speed, but not a "one and only shot" situation.

 

[chicharrones]

Regarding speed with a single, I have been known to shoot doubles with my 20 gauge identical to the one in the picture (sans mods) One can get fast with practice. If I remeber, I shot at least 10 rounds of doubles without letting a clay bird hit the ground. Hit one on the way up, reload, hit the other on the way down. I can sustain a rate of fire of less than one second per shot, at least until my vest pocket is empty. Not blazing Tactical speed, but not a "one and only shot" situation.

Similar to when I was hunting doves with my old 37A. The difference was that the doves weren't closing distance to attack me. If they happened to be flying at me, they were doing so above me with the intent to go past me. Which gave me time to pivot while reloading (and cocking the hammer) under no pressure other than to not miss a meal.

Basically, I was trying to shoot doves while they were trying to get away. I can't claim an attacker would react the same way, not to mention that my stress level would be completely different (sport vs. possible death).

 

[Kleanbore]

we are legally liable for every individual piece of shot and therefore should not shoot at an enemy any farther than the whole pattern will stay on his body.

Legally and morally. There was a pretty good video here about when to leave the shotgun in the patrol car.

I will point out that most researchers who have studied the issue have found that "the mere presence of a gun" is enough to deter the great majority of gunfights before they start.

The discussion starts after the "mere presence" has failed to deter.

Beyond that, it is worth noting that the oft-mentioned "multiple determined attackers" scenario seems to be one of the rarer self-defense situations

We understand that incidents involving two or more attackers are as common as those involving one attacker. Michael Bane's The Best Defense devoted an episode to the subject.

Virtue signaling... are you just trying to use buzzwords to sound relevant?

"Buzzwords"? "Sound relevant"?

 

[tallpaul]

I used to take a similar basic short H&R ss 12 ga with an auto ejector on road trips across state lines... before ccw was common and easy. Made a decent defensive gun for hotel and emergencies and was as non offensive to LE in those goofy areas as I could get... I never felt unarmed.

 

[AK Hunter]

This is how:

I would say any gun is better than no gun at all in a defensive situations. But a single shot?? You better have a lot to hide behind. Because when you pull the trigger on the first guy all other threats will turn on you. The only way I would use a single shot is in retreat mode as I was getting out of the house to protect my six.

 

[.38 Special]

The discussion starts after the "mere presence" has failed to deter.

Is that an order?

We understand that incidents involving two or more attackers are as common as those involving one attacker. Michael Bane's The Best Defense devoted an episode to the subject.

That may or may not be so - but the quote includes "determined" attackers who continue the attack even after the victim has begun shooting. Those apparently are so rare that I cannot, off the top of my head, think of a single instance.

 

[.38 Special]

I wish people would stop misinterpreting the issue. It is whether or not you have the capacity for the average. The average is no shots fired, so have no ammo.

If you'd stopped there you would have made a good point. People who worry about the capacity of their weapons - let alone people who insult each other about the capacity of their weapons - are arguing about enormously unlikely situations.

The deterrence factor of the gun works most of the time. However, the idea is to have the ability to deal with an incident more in the extremes. More than one opponent - and that does happen. A person or persons that are economically motivated and won't be deterred.

And therein is the underlying cause of so much frustration and bombast: folks who are sure that their imaginary extreme is where the bar should be set, and sure that any other imaginary situations are wrong.

 

[Kleanbore]

Is that an order?

Of course not. It is simply the way conditional probabilities work. Basic statistics.

the quote includes "determined" attackers who continue the attack even after the victim has begun shooting. Those apparently are so rare that I cannot, off the top of my head, think of a single instance.

Who would know, and how could we know?

People who worry about the capacity of their weapons ...- are arguing about enormously unlikely situations.

Yes. The likelihood that a person rill fore a firearm in defense in any one year is enormously low. The likelihood in one's lifetime is much higher, bu it is sill extremely low. None of that matters, though, until that first shot is fired. That's a basic tenet of risk analysis.

And therein is the underlying cause of so much frustration and bombast: folks who are sure that their imaginary extreme is where the bar should be set,

No one has any firm basis at all for surety regarding "where the bar should be set". It's a judgment call, which necessarily takes into account one's tolerance for risk. Personally, I like to have some margin. And once the balloon goes up, nothing is imaginary.

 

[Kevin Keith]

I think I could have that sweet 20 out and smokin' with a couple of seconds for each follow up. Plenty enough time to eject, load, thumb and fire. Rinse and repeat. Unless you're just a-sprayin' and a-prayin' any other follow up shots with any other weapon will take a couple of seconds I imagine.

 

[John Joseph]

Defensively, I'd draw the line at a double with two triggers.
Faster follow up shot than a pump or semi auto and light years faster than a single shot.

 

[GEM]

A couple of seconds between shots is an eternity in some situations. In 4 seconds from the draw, I could (was able) to get good COM hits on 6 seven yard targets with a full power load 1911.

As Kleanbore again has pointed out, the odds of getting into a fight is different from what happens in the fight.

In life I had two possible 4 opponents situations which were potentially lethal but I managed to avoid. That was above average, I think.

 

[chicharrones]

A couple of seconds between shots is an eternity in some situations. In 4 seconds from the draw, I could (was able) to get good COM hits on 6 seven yard targets with a full power load 1911.

As Kleanbore again has pointed out, the odds of getting into a fight is different from what happens in the fight.

In life I had two possible 4 opponents situations which were potentially lethal but I managed to avoid. That was above average, I think.

4 opponents is an interesting number. My interesting number has been 3. I've had no interesting 2s, but I have had some nearly interesting 1s.

The first 3 was with me in my early 20s, well before my gun carrying days. The leader of the 3 pulled out a revolver and I gave them my money. My guard was down due to my inexperience in life, and I wouldn't have had a chance to pull a gun to protect myself if I had wanted to.

The second 3 was decades later with me in my early 40s, and I had my carry license and gun on me. The leader of the 3 had a slight build, backed up by two "muscle" men. They produced no visible weapons. For whatever reason, producing a cell phone to take the photo of the leader convinced them to go away. Of course, the leader mouthed off while leaving, but mission accomplished.

In both cases, all of us were only about 10 feet away from each other. It's kinda hard to keep distance from people in a city no matter the situation.

I'm trying to think how a shotgun would play into my situations above. It could have been a heck of a visual deterrent, but that would involve open carry of that shotgun.

 

[Kleanbore]

I think I could have that sweet 20 out and smokin' with a couple of seconds for each follow up. Plenty enough time to eject, load, thumb and fire. Rinse and repeat. Unless you're just a-sprayin' and a-prayin' any other follow up shots with any other weapon will take a couple of seconds I imagine.

That rapidity fits well with th movies that people play in their minds, and that's for a reason: when we watch screen fiction about gunfights, everything is slowed to a tempo akin to running in the dream. They want to viewer to see and comprehend what tis going on, rather than to find out what happened after the shooting stops.

In real life, we cannot reasonably expect someone who intends to do us in to afford us the luxury of two seconds, let alone two seconds between shots. As GEM said, two seconds is an eternity in a use of force encounter.

Also consider the issue of misses. At self defense distances the pattern of a shotgun is extremely small. One has to aim. It is not really a "scattergun" at close range.

As Odd Job put it,

There is a lot that can go wrong with a single shot:

1) That first (and only shot) misses
2) That first (and only shot) hits the target but doesn't neutralise it
3) That first (and only shot) hits and neutralises the target but there is a second target

Add to that what the pattern does farther out. Shot that does not stop in the attacker's body constitutes a real danger for innocents in the background.

No, I do not consider a short single shot shotgun a "nice little defensive weapon"

 

[Dale Alan]

I think I could have that sweet 20 out and smokin' with a couple of seconds for each follow up. Plenty enough time to eject, load, thumb and fire. Rinse and repeat. Unless you're just a-sprayin' and a-prayin' any other follow up shots with any other weapon will take a couple of seconds I imagine.

This puts a "couple seconds" into perspective .

 

[Armored farmer]

Well @JCooperfan1911 ...
It has been decided that you're going to die trying to defend yourself with that cool little single barrel. Goodbye my friend!

(At least you won't die alone.)