Seller Misrepresenting S&W Revolvers on Gunbroker

[Homerboy]

I guess the reason for my my rambling is that: 1) not every private seller is a crook, 2) if you gotta pay by credit card you probably can't afford the gun in the first place, 3) every website that I know of requires a 3 day inspection period for ALL sellers, and 4) screwing around with a U. S. Postal Money Order can put you in a world of hurt.

I agree. I've sold probably 15 guns online. Course, I've probably bought 20. Always been happy with what I got, and the feedback from what I sold is ALWAYS positive. I buy from gunbroker all the time. I just sold one on there last week. I don't accept credit cards, either. But I don't have 50 guns for sale at any one time. I don't shine up guns and mark them as new and unfired. I am courteous to ALL inquiries, especially those asking legitimate questions. I ALWAYS answer the question fully. I don't deflect it by saying "I've answered your question in the ad". This guy is a scumbag. He is rude to genuine inquires (I'm sure only those asking questions that he couldn't answer. I'll BET if I sent him one saying "your model 65 looks exquiste. Is it REALLY as good as it looks?" would get me a sweetheart answer. But ask why the gun is so polished, or doesn't come the original factory grips, and you get the freeze treatment. I just want this guy to get shut down. He's stealing from people, and if it is true that non-dealers can't profit more than 10% of their annual income, I want this guy to get hammered. He's selliing some of these for $5000. Unless he's Donald Trump, his sales are more than 10% of his income.

 

[Geezer Glide]

How can someone uneducated in guns ask a question? It is MORE the seller's responsibility to conduct business in a fair manner, and not to lie about a product he is selling. If this guy posted his guns as "used S&W's refurbished and restored" then I would have no problem. He's billing them as safe queens, new and unfired, and in 100% condition. Members of this forum are not representative of gun owners. MOST of us can spot a fake like this guy is selling. The average gunbuyer cannot. And he's taking people for more than double the value of the gun. He's ripping people off, period.

Did you read your first sentence?

 

[Homerboy]

Did you read your first sentence?

Sure I did. I wrote it. If you have no knowledge of a topic, how can you formulate an intelligent question? For instance, I KNOW that S&W did not ship the gun with the mirror finish. So I knew enough to ask WHY the seller polished it. I also know that gun shipped with wooden Magna grips, not Hogue's. So when I ask the seller where the grips are, or why there is no box, I can expect an answer. A less experienced buyer would not have the experience to ask that. Kind of like when you bring your father with you to speak with the Army recruiter, or to buy your first car. And even when I DID ask him, he avoided the question. Rather than answer "the Magnas were replaced", he responds with "the gun comes with what is in the auction". When I am knowledgeable enough to ask why he still is going to ship overnight fedex through his FFL when it is not necessary, he responds with "the gun will ship fedex". A less knowledgeable buyer would assume that fedex overnight is is the only alternative, when it isn't.

When you buy something advertised as 100%, it should be 100%, not some PD trade-in with a face lift. He's lying about the condition of his guns and charging WAY over what they are worth based on those lies. If you're Ok with that, good for you.

 

[Magnumite]

I agree with Homerboy, the seller has a responsibility to clearly represent his product. If he can get good prices fir good product, that's cool. But have yet to see a high polish, fixed sight servicegrsde revolver ever offered by S&W. Zoom in on the pics and you'll see rounded corners and polished gouges.

I just sold a Colt Series 70 slide. Market indicated I coukd have milked an additional $25-50 out of it. But in fairness to the buyer, I could not because if the condition it was in when I bought it. It is sound and fits well, but there is enough wrong with it an inexperienced person might not realize it. I sent well taken pics and revealed everthing about it. I just keep thinking, " What if I were buying this?".

Not every sale has to bleed the buyer.

 

[billybob44]

I've sold quite a few guns on Auction Arms and Gunbroker. I don't make a living doing so as my screen name probably implies. By the way, it's the same name I use in my auctions if you'd care to check my personal feedback. I sell my guns, sometimes at a loss, to enhance, weed out, or simply goof around with my collection. Usually I'm lucky to break even but that's just the way it goes. The only gun I ever had returned was a pre-64 Model 70 in .375 H&H magnum. I posted in CAPITAL LETTERS and pictures that the stock had a professionally repaired crack around the tang and then the moron who bought it upon receipt complained that, "it's got a crack behind the tang". I had him return the gun, refunded his money and shipping, and sold the rifle for $400 more the next day with the "buy it now" option. The professional guide from Montana who then bought it was delighted.

I recently sold a 28 gauge Wingmaster Light Weight in near mint condition and got $425 for it. It had two boxes of AA's through it... Pretty wood too... Then there was the circa 1974 Model 14 Smith new in the box that I got $375 for 10 months ago. Yes, target hammer, target trigger, Goncolo Alves target grips... get the picture?

I guess the reason for my my rambling is that: 1) not every private seller is a crook, 2) if you gotta pay by credit card you probably can't afford the gun in the first place, 3) every website that I know of requires a 3 day inspection period for ALL sellers, and 4) screwing around with a U. S. Postal Money Order can put you in a world of hurt.

Yes, there are dishonest people in this world. I know one guy that I sold three rifles to in Alabama. He was shocked when he got the third gun prior to his sending me his payment. I knew he was good for the money so why should he have to wait and I have to make another trip to UPS when I was in the neighborhood anyway. His money order arrived three days later. I've just personally found very few folks in the shooting community to be unscrupulous and most of those who are are dealers. The crooks don't stay around very long and I personally believe there is a special hot corner of hell reserved for them. Just keep in mind that you're paying for that "brick and mortar", AMEX fees, and profit margins next time you buy.

screwing around with a U. S. Postal Money Order can put you in a world of hurt.

Rick--Why is this??
On out of state gun buys, this is all I have used. I buy them at the Post Office+the seller cashes them at his Post Office.
I was under the impression that this was one of the safest way to pay??
Help me learn something?? Bill.

 

[ThomasT]

I think what Rickmd is saying is that doing a dishonest transaction that involves the post office in any way is mail fraud. And postal inspectors are humorless folks who will make your life hell if you use the federal mail to cheat people.

Thats why everyone likes them. If you are sold a defective item and pay with an USPS money order you have an instant ally on your side. Plus knowing this makes all parties involved be on their best business behavior.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I think what Rickmd is saying is that doing a dishonest transaction that involves the post office in any way is mail fraud. And postal inspectors are humorless folks who will make your life hell if you use the federal mail to cheat people.

Thats why everyone likes them. If you are sold a defective item and pay with an USPS money order you have an instant ally on your side. Plus knowing this makes all parties involved be on their best business behavior.

This is the 100% truth. Postal Inspectors are like Pit Bulls in heat. Once they chomp down on you they don't let go...

 

[Homerboy]

He's savvy enough to have changed his wording, though. In April, the 64 he was selling was "new in box", even though it had that super shine treatment. When I called him out on it, he got nasty, as usual, and then changed the wording to "as new in box". He uses the phrase "100% Finish", not 100%.

If you wanted to screw him, you would simply have to get the letter from S&W detailing when the gun was made and where it was shipped. When they come back and tell you the gun was shipped to some police department in 1989, and he's selling them as "100% Finish", and "pristine", you could tell the postal inspector that he misrepresented the 22 year old gun you just bought for $850 as something it is not. Of course, he's counting on the new buyer NOT knowing these things.

If anyone else is pissed at this guy, head over to GB and find one of his auctions. he has dozens. Click the "ask seller a question", and ask him why he is billing these guns the way he is. Ask him why they needed to be polished so much, or where the original grips went. Tell him that buffing them to that degree removes metal, which could be dangerous when he's removing metal from the cylinder, increasing the cylinder gap.

My guess from his dopey screen name (fallen angel) is he's a kid, probably mid twenties, who grew up with Glocks and has no idea how a S&W should look. He probably has a father or uncle who got him into guns, and turned him onto flipping these older used guns for a profit. If you read his feedback, the last guy he BOUGHT from had a problem with him. Seems this crook wanted to return the gun he bought (probably to buff and flip) because he felt the "condition was mis-represented". Can you believe the balls on this guy! So the guy offers him a refund (something this crook won't do) upon receipt of the gun. He doesn't mail it back, and the guy had to call the ATF since his gun, which hadn't legally changed ownership yet, was still in limbo and registered to him. If you read the exchanges between the two, first he says he mailed the gun back but the POST OFFICE must have lost it! Then he comes back later and says "I didn't mail the gun, true. But I didn't know it hadn't been mailed" He insists on YOU paying for fed-ex, now somehow when HE has to mail it back, he goes the cheaper post office route, I guess through an FFL. So when it saves HIM a buck, he'll go through the hassle of using an FFL, but when YOU'RE paying for shipping, he's gotta ship fed-ex overnight because the use of an FFL is "difficult for him". And how do you NOT follow up with your FFL if you're shipping a gun?

 

[918v]

I think what Rickmd is saying is that doing a dishonest transaction that involves the post office in any way is mail fraud. And postal inspectors are humorless folks who will make your life hell if you use the federal mail to cheat people.

Postal inspectors do not care about petty amounts such as is discussed here.

 

[ThomasT]

Postal inspectors do not care about petty amounts such as is discussed here.

I didn't realize $500 and up was a "petty" amount of money. I didn't think they made any distinction on any amounts. I have heard of them getting on to people for reusing 40 cent stamps.

 

[RickMD]

It isn't so much the amount that draws their attention. Passing a bad check is a state issue but fraud involving a Postal Money Order is a federal offense. They don't take it lightly.

 

[trex1310]

I kind of like knowing about a scam artist.

 

[Geezer Glide]

If you have no knowledge of a topic, how can you formulate an intelligent question?

Were you born a genius or did you have to ask a question or two along the way? If you don't like the guy's auctions, don't be such a drama queen and move along.

 

[Homerboy]

Were you born a genius or did you have to ask a question or two along the way? If you don't like the guy's auctions, don't be such a drama queen and move along

try to follow me here: Questions asked of this guy do NOT get answered truthfully! Guys I asked questions of weren't trying to sell a $450 dollar gun for $1000. He doesn't admit to polishing the guns, replacing the factory wood (if they were PD guns, the wood is the first thing to get banged up getting in and out of a car and getting baged up while wrestling with people), or anything else. Most of the people on here support my calling this guy out. You seem to approve of his dishonest actions.

 

[Olevern]

The attitudes of some on this thread cause me to feel ill. Just because you may be gun savvy enough to avoid a scam in purchasing a gun doesn't mean that others just beginning this journey are not deserving of a heads-up or that they deserve to be cheated due to their inexperience (a situation we were all in at one time or other). What elitest crap!

Typical of this generation - not just in this area of interest...if it don't affect me, who cares?

Just remember the mantra...it's all about me (and others just like me) it's all about me (and others just like me)it's all about me (and others just like me)it's all about me (and others just like me)it's all about me (and others just like me)

I'm sick....gotta go

 

[Geezer Glide]

Just like everything else that is wrong with this country today, everyone wants to be a drama queen and not be responsible for themselves.

If the guy didn't answer your questions to your satisfaction, move along to another seller that you feel comfortable with.

 

[Homerboy]

Where does this "drama queen" come from? Do you even know what that means? You and maybe one or two others who have posted think I'm out of line. That tells me that you don't see anything wrong with this guy's actions, so you would do the same thing. I admit he got my blood up. That wouldn't have happened if he didn't take to emailing me with derisive comments about my inability to pay for his garbage. I could buy 5 of his crappy guns if I wanted to. He's selling guns that are misrepresented. He's cheating people out of their money. Their only fault is not knowing any better. I'd love to put him out of business. I contacted him and he responds with hostility. I contacted gunbroker and they told me "if you don't like it, don't bid". Gunbroker is now aware of his deceitfullness, and they don't care, either. My gunbroker account is now closed. He has 34 active auctions right now, and he's not an FFL. That's illegal.

 

[Magnumite]

The auction sites do not side in those disputes of authenticity. Mostly because they get the selling fees on the auctions. The bigger the seller, the more likely the auction site management will look the other way. Auction Arms, I name in clear conscience, is one site I got caught in bidding on a clearly fraudulent auction years back. Fortunately, not a huge amount of money. It cost me about $60 more than the value of what I eventually ended up with. The item was obviously and clearly misrepresented by Weapons Safety, who advertised as building 1911's for serious use. Listed a frame described and stated as one of the barstock frames Caspian was making at the time. I got it, it was clearly cast and OBVIOUSLY DEFECTIVE. Long, long story short, I told the seller and the auction site managers they were no more than cooperative thieves hiding behind keyboards. I further told the lister if that is how he ran his classes and built his guns then a lot of people were being put in harms way. I closed my account with Auction Arms and don't recommend them to anyone.

Caspian did warranty the frame. I had a very pleasant conversation with the main guru on the phone and have uncompromised respect for Caspian Arms/Foster Industries.

So yes, those condoning irreputable selling and outright thievery don't need to be crying when you are ones getting burned. Support of those tactics is nothing more than idle complacency.

 

[Homerboy]

He has a S&W 940 listed as "new old stock" on there. How does a non-FFL get a "new old stock" gun? Once you buy a "new old stock" gun, it's no longer "new old stock", but used. It has that same super bright finish and non-factory grips. I filed one last complaint on him to GB with this info, and this time they responded with "We will contact the seller to verify his descriptions. The seller is associated with a known firearms restorer". So he partners with some guy with a machine shop, buys cheap guns, buffs them so they look nice, then sells them at a huge profit to unsuspecting buyers while he bills them as "new" or "Safe queens". And he has no FFL, so he's committing a felony. 34 guns listed RIGHT NOW on gunbroker.

 

[DenaliPark]

He has a S&W 940 listed as "new old stock" on there. How does a non-FFL get a "new old stock" gun? Once you buy a "new old stock" gun, it's no longer "new old stock", but used. It has that same super bright finish and non-factory grips. I filed one last complaint on him to GB with this info, and this time they responded with "We will contact the seller to verify his descriptions. The seller is associated with a known firearms restorer". So he partners with some guy with a machine shop, buys cheap guns, buffs them so they look nice, then sells them at a huge profit to unsuspecting buyers while he bills them as "new" or "Safe queens". And he has no FFL, so he's committing a felony. 34 guns listed RIGHT NOW on gunbroker.

What exactly is the felony that your victim has committed?

 

[Homerboy]

I don't have a victim. His customers are his victims. And the felony is selling guns for the purpose of profit without having an FFL. He's buying guns cheap, polishing them, and flipping them for a profit. 34 guns right now for sale, and he has no FFL. He even has a partner, according to GB. he's affiliated with a gun restorer, which is why the guns shine so much. Normally, I would just let it slide, but maybe not this time. Still haven't decided. Goes against my gut to make a call, but the arrogance he has shown is a bit much. Course, when I told him maybe a call to the ATF would be in order, he mysteriously stopped responding. I know you're OK with what he's doing, but I really don't care what you think.

 

[TennJed]

The attitudes of some on this thread cause me to feel ill. Just because you may be gun savvy enough to avoid a scam in purchasing a gun doesn't mean that others just beginning this journey are not deserving of a heads-up or that they deserve to be cheated due to their inexperience (a situation we were all in at one time or other). What elitest crap!

Typical of this generation - not just in this area of interest...if it don't affect me, who cares?

Just remember the mantra...it's all about me (and others just like me) it's all about me (and others just like me)it's all about me (and others just like me)it's all about me (and others just like me)it's all about me (and others just like me)

I'm sick....gotta go

Very well said....i want to ask everyone here with the attitude of "just move along and ignore him"

Do you have a problem with a mechanic or car salesman ripping off an elderly lady, would you want to warn her? would you be upset at the mechanic/salesman?

I know a lot of people who are old school tuff guys. They know everything about hunting, guns, fixing cars, and building houses. I work in customer service in the banking and finance industry and some of them come to me for advice. money management is not thier strong suit. Should i use this to my advantage and rip them off. Maybe refer them to a "financial manager" that would give me a kickback. Who cares what they sale them. Can I do this to your father, brother, or hunting buddy?

Some people are in the learning stages or may not know everything that you do. only a lowlife would take advantage of someone because of this.

I have no respect for dishonest people. I also have no respect for people how just set by and let wrong things happen because it doesn't affect them.

One thing i find worse than a drama queen, is someone who is either too selfish or just doesn't care enough to stand up to the lowlifes of this country

 

[larryh1108]

I do a lot of business on the online auctions. I have over 500+ positive feedbacks on the one mentioned here with 0 negatives. I buy and sell. I am not like the guy mentioned here and have learned to be upfront and honest and you will be ok.

My point is this, the feedback system on all online auctions is there for a reason. Whether you are new to buying or an old pro, all you have to do is read the seller's feedback. If you see multiple feedbacks of not as advertised or for being a jerk you simply do not do business with that guy. Why would you? Even if you never bought at an online auction before you can still read the feedback. If you read the bad reviews and still buy then is it the seller's fault that the buyer didn't heed the warnings? It's like walking into a store to buy an item and on the front door there are letters from unhappy buyers and you walk in anyways, who is at fault?

I'm sorry, the seller is indeed a jerk. What he is doing makes all sellers look bad but if you're dumb enough to buy from a seller with multiple unhappy customers then you deserve what you buy and no one here should feel sorry for him. Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. It's not let the seller beware. Those bad feedbacks are there for a reason. Read them and heed them and you won't get screwed by a less than honest seller.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Wow, THREE pages of this crap and still going strong.

Someone just might give the seller the link to this thread and maybe he might have a few pages of stuff he will say about you. (or maybe not)

 

[Homerboy]

Someone just might give the seller the link to this thread and maybe he might have a few pages of stuff he will say about you. (or maybe not)

Why don't you go ahead and do that? We'd all LOVE to hear his response. Let him make a comment. I still have the emails he sent me. He won't respond anyway. he just wants this to go away. The more people who read this, the less money he's able to fleece. I noticed the similarities in your name to his. Dark Angel and Arch Angel. Do you know this guy? Gunbroker already confirmed that he's affiliated with a restorer, so there's no denying the allegations. And it's not onlt the stainless Smith's. Restorers do blueing, too. So maybe that "100% factory finish" on the Colt Python he's selling isn't really factory blue. The S&W factory will mark a re-blued gun they did so a buyer can see it is not original. Private restorers won't. Blueing from 1965 is NOT the same as blueing from 2011. He's taking scratched up guns, buffing them, and selling them as new or safe queens. He's selling some as new in box, without the original accesories that come with the gun. He won't respond to the educated questions he's asked. He's clearly flipping guns for a profit, which is illegal. None of this would have happened if he didn't have such an antagonistic response to my question. I asked him how much to ship through an FFL, he responded with a "$75. I still ship overnight fed-ex either way", and my response was "Thanks for the quick response Gary. I'm no longer interested in the gun". He comes back with "I figured that since you were haggling over $20 on a $1000 gun". He didn't need to respond to me, but he just had to get a dig in. My next email was a civil response to WHY I wasn't interested. I told him I am very knowledgeable about S&W's, and I know he's buffing out scratches and dings, that he's trying to take advantage of inexperienced buyers. He responds with "You just don't have the money". Honestly, I wasn't even aware of the illegalities of selling guns to make a profit without an FFL.

As for the feedback, he's starting to get some negatives, but overall it's still mostly positive. Why? Because only inexperienced people are buying from him, and they don't know any better. Look at the number of feedbacks the buyer has. Usually very low, indicating new buyer. Also, ALOT of his feedback comes from him as the BUYER. I'm sure he pays right away. He's gotta get that $400 gun shined up so he can flip it for $850. I was interested in one of his 65's. That's why I asked him the question about shipping. I was prepared to go as high as $650, just because I want a 3" S&W .357. The polisher he's affilated with charges $175 for his work if you're a guy walking in off the street. Since they're partners, I'm sure he doesn't charge him full price due to the business he give him Probably $100 a pop. A scratched up 65 is certainly not worth more than $425, so he still could have profitted $125. I took umbrage when he insisted I pay for overnight fed-ex when I know his FFL can ship priority mail. He has no trouble using an FFl and priority mail when he's mailing back a gun he wasn't happy with to the seller. That's because that saves HIM money. I never even entertained the idea of calling the ATF until yesterday. Why shouldn't I? I'm a retired cop. I have several active duty FBI agent friends. Maybe ATF would pay me a little more attention, especially if one of my friends followed up. My conscience would be clear. He's committing a crime and he treats customers as rubes waiting to be conned. Still haven't decided, though. Maybe he's feeding his kids with the money he's making. Then again, drug dealers and mobsters have kids too. I never felt bad locking them up. 34 active auctions right now, and a partner who makes his product look better. This is a business for this guy. And to be in the gun selling business, you need an FFL. He doesn't have one.

Arch, the overwhelming response to this guy has been on my side. For some reason, you seem to think what he's doing is OK. if you weren't in PA and he in FL, I'd think you were the same guy.