selling a gun - any feelings of responsibility?

[AWorthyOpponent]

I don't feel guilty about anything. I follow local, state, and federal laws and use my judgement if I sell a firearm. In my opinion, if you feel the need to have the guy you're selling to get a background check, you probably shouldn't be selling it to them.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

There are about 33,000 traffic deaths per year (peaked at over 50,000 for many years) and many less cars on the road than guns in circulation.

I would feel the same amount of responsibility as when selling a used car: none.

Mike

 

[SFsc616171]

(Oh no, it's him again!)

In Louisiana, the only "sales paper" that the feds get is the NICS record, when a firearm is sold through an LGS. There is no requirement, for anything on paper, when a 'private sale' has occured.

However, for those of us who have already listed their firearms in their wills, and have sold or gifted those firearms to ' a body', it would seem logical to have a simple "I sold", or an "I gave" piece of paper, with both names and marks on it, for future will amendments, and 'just in case', that 'body who did the selling or gifting', was the original purchaser, with name on said NICS logbook.

My power-of-attorney person held mine, while I had been out of town for major surgery and recuperation, a time ago. After my return, and a time passed, my POA asked if they could have one of my handguns, and my longgun. (I was delighted when they asked, because they came to the conclusion that they 'needed something with the current social environment happening', on their own.) I gifted one plus the ammo of caliber, and sold the other at a reasonable price, with ammo, both with papers signed and counter-signed. I was not the least sad, or dismayed, in letting go of the firearms my POA had chosen.

I hope that this gives a good example, for the OP.

 

[bobinoregon]

On the extremely rare occasions I've sold a gun, as soon as it changes hands I'm done. I feel no responsibility whatsoever for what any future owners may do. I also don't worry about someones nefarious plans for cars or boats I sell.

 

[pippin53]

Here is by state...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

Top 10

California 1,790
Texas 1,089
New York 774
Pennsylvania 636
Michigan 613
Georgia 522
North Carolina 489
Ohio 488
Louisiana 485
Illinois3 452

Illinois, as always, is corrupt. Notice the "3" there, which denotes "limited supplemental data," odd that it's the only state that happened to.

http://articles.redeyechicago.com/2...ot-victims-chicago-homicides-homicide-numbers

422 homicides in Chicago alone in 2011(when the FBI crime statistics are for). A little searching finds out that murders went up 25% in Chicago in 2012, and 2013 outpaced that.

I'd say that Illinois' numbers are higher.

 

[JSH1]

I have two guns that I would like to sell but haven't because I have concerns about private sales. I know that there is no way for me to look at a stranger and know if they are allowed to purchase a gun.

The first is a Mossberg Maverick shotgun with a 28" barrel. I don't really have any concerns selling that gun privately. The odds of a prohibited person looking for a hunting shotgun to use in a crime are very low. I will most likely list it on armslist but I will require a bill of sale.

The other gun is more troubling for me. It is a surplus FEG semi-automatic pistol I bought on a whim last year. It is my first semi-auto and I found that I prefer revolvers. I am not comfortable selling the FEG without a background check. To me it is about the perfect gun for a prohibited person; cheap and small. I may sell it on gunbroker one of these days since they only allow shipments through a FFL.

 

[gym]

JSH1, you can't assume responsibility for objects that you sell. Even if you sold it to a judge or LEO, it could get stolen from their home or car, and used for no good. All you can do is follow the proper procedures and obey the law. Once it leaves your hands your time with it is finished. You are being to worrisome about the rest of the world.

 

[jerkface11]

Isn't it amazing how many threads like this we've gotten over the last couple months? If you didn't know better you'd swear it was organized.

 

[JSH1]

JSH1, you can't assume responsibility for objects that you sell. Even if you sold it to a judge or LEO, it could get stolen from their home or car, and used for no good. All you can do is follow the proper procedures and obey the law. Once it leaves your hands your time with it is finished. You are being to worrisome about the rest of the world.

I am not assuming responsibility for the gun after the sale. After a gun leaves my hands I am no longer involved. I am assuming responsibility for the sale of the gun because I have direct control over the sale. I believe as a responsible gun owner and citizen of my community that I have the duty not to sell a firearm to a prohibited person. The minimum requirements federally and in my state do nothing to prevent such a sale. Only a background check insures that the person buying a gun is allowed to purchase and own firearms.

I am also realistic. The odds are slim that a person will agree to a $35 FFL transfer, to purchase a $200 gun, when doing so is not required by law. That is why I am thinking of selling the pistol through gunbroker.com.

 

[Warp]

I am not assuming responsibility for the gun after the sale. After a gun leaves my hands I am no longer involved. I am assuming responsibility for the sale of the gun because I have direct control over the sale. I believe as a responsible gun owner and citizen of my community that I have the duty not to sell a firearm to a prohibited person. The minimum requirements federally and in my state do nothing to prevent such a sale. Only a background check insures that the person buying a gun is allowed to purchase and own firearms.

I am also realistic. The odds are slim that a person will agree to a $35 FFL transfer, to purchase a $200 gun, when doing so is not required by law. That is why I am thinking of selling the pistol through gunbroker.com.

A person who is allowed to purchase a firearm could still turn around and murder 10 people with it the day after you sell it to him.

Personally I'd feel pretty silly putting a $200 gun on Gunbroker only to have to pay listing fees, the auction fee, and shipping.

 

[JRWhit]

I personally don't understand the logic of being against mandatory background checks, then running background checks of your own free will. Is it that many of you think its a good idea privately, but don't want to be told that you HAVE to? My responsibility as a gun owner is to follow the law. If I do that, and the person doesn't immediately set off red flags (like showing up for the sale in a Hells Angels cut or some such thing that indicates probable criminal activity) I can rest easy at night. I'm not going to stress out about the maybes and what could possibly happen in a worst case scenario, any more than the clerk at the liquor store worries that every pint of Jim Beam he sells will lead to a drunk driving accident or case of domestic abuse.

The logic is simple. Selling a firearm is my business. It is not the business of government to intervene in my private transaction and/or to incur fees on them. My personal decision for my private sale is to satisfy my desire to know that the purchaser is of no ill intent with what I am selling them. That is my decision, and is not something I impose on others, but may suggest. If you or others have legally sold firearms in a manor other than mine, I have no reason to suggest that you have done anything wrong.
I do not want legislators involved in this process because it is nearly a fact that they cannot be trusted with it. Any attempt for legislators to get involved in this process will undoubtedly result in overstepping the intent. Just because I desire to do something a certain way is no reason to have Government make it law.

 

[ATLDave]

Well said, JRWhit. I try to say "please" and "thank you" as appropriate, and would encourage others to do the same if asked my opinion. I would strongly oppose a government requirement to say "please" and "thank you." Is this really a hard distinction for people to grasp?

 

[Sniper66]

I have bought and sold a number of personal firearms over the years. Whenever that happens , I correspond with the individual for awhile before even getting around to talking about price, etc. Most gun guys are eager to discuss what they like and why. They will willingly share personal info. I've even made a couple of friends. Here's the deal…I always deal in cash, so I am certainly going to exercise caution when meeting someone I don't know to exchange cash for a gun or a gun for cash. I simply would not sell to or buy from someone who is evasive about answering a few questions. Once it seems Ok to me, what they do with the gun or cash after the transaction is none of my business.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

So I guess I have a clarifying question to those people who said they don't have any responsibility about the sale.

Does this just mean to you that:

1. You won't run a background check or ask for ID, but are looking out for suspicious behavior (and if so, what qualifies as suspicious to you?)

Or

2. Who the buyer is and how they behave and communicate has nothing to do with your decision to sell, and you only deny if they admit to being a prohibited person.

Or

3. Who the buyer is and how they behave has nothing to do with the decision to sell, and you make no attempt to determine whether they are a prohibited person?

 

[danez71]

A person who is allowed to purchase a firearm could still turn around and murder 10 people with it the day after you sell it to him.

Personally I'd feel pretty silly putting a $200 gun on Gunbroker only to have to pay listing fees, the auction fee, and shipping.

True. No one can stop that scenario.

However, I'd feel horrible if I sold a gun to a straight laced 'looking' guy that lied to me and already has assault/DV convictions and a current restraining order against him for making threats to his Ex.

I think we pretty much all agree that violent felons shouldn't own guns.

I've only sold a few guns; to a close friend and the others through an FFL because I didn't have any close friends that wanted to buy.

So I see JSH1 point of view too. Its not about being responsible for the gun after the sale. Its about being a responsible gun seller.

Everyone has their own moral compass. Theres nothing wrong with wanting to take an extra precautionary step beyond whats required. Some people lock their guns up in a safe... some people don't. Personal choice.

ETA: I'm not advocating UBC's. I'm advocating personal choice. Sometimes I've chosen to sell 'private party' with no back ground check because I felt comfortable with it and other times I've chosen to just use the guns as a trade with a FFL gun shop because I didn't have a close friend buyer and it was easy just using the guns as trades for something different.

 

[gym]

Anyone can get phony ID on the internet these days. Or borrow their friends, or have their friend buy your gun. When we got our ID stolen, they even had drivers licenses with their pictures on it that the bank accepted, trying to play crime stopper is a waste of time.
Just ask any internet savvy kid to get you ID, you will see that this is a waste of time. For $25 dollars they can get your license ss card birth certificate and whatever else they need.

 

[danez71]

Anyone can get phony ID on the internet these days. Or borrow their friends, or have their friend buy your gun. When we got our ID stolen, they even had drivers licenses with their pictures on it that the bank accepted, trying to play crime stopper is a waste of time.
Just ask any internet savvy kid to get you ID, you will see that this is a waste of time. For $25 dollars they can get your license ss card birth certificate and whatever else they need.

Making blanket statements as if they're absolute rarely help support a point of view.


If that's how you want to look at it.... Then why even have a gun for SD/HD?

The reason is because you're playing crime stopper from you being a victim.

Why do people have a safe?... because they are playing crime stopper.
Why do restaurants and liquor stores check IDs?... because they are playing crime stopper.


A higher percentage of people are denied through an NCIS check than the percent of people that are victims of violent crimes (including robberies). http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf

IOW, 1%-2% of people are denied through NCIS. Lets just say its 1%.

You're chances of being a victim of a violent crime (including robberies) is .0006% according to the link.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I don't sell face-to-face and I ALWAYS sell via Gunbroker with shipping from FFL to FFL or me to FFL.

Responsible? No, but I rarely sell my toys. What if I sold a TV to someone and it was used to kill someone (cracked it over someone's head)? Should I feel responsible?

 

[Warp]

Anyone can get phony ID on the internet these days. Or borrow their friends, or have their friend buy your gun. When we got our ID stolen, they even had drivers licenses with their pictures on it that the bank accepted, trying to play crime stopper is a waste of time.
Just ask any internet savvy kid to get you ID, you will see that this is a waste of time. For $25 dollars they can get your license ss card birth certificate and whatever else they need.

I believe this is a bit of an exaggeration

 

[zdc1775]

I believe this is a bit of an exaggeration

In my area it is but not by too much. its more like 100-200 for all that, 25-50 for a DL though. Used to see them all the time when I did security at bars and clubs, some are obvious fakes, some are pretty good forgeries.

 

[gym]

It's not an exaggeration, it's just that you are not aware of it. When someone charged over 20 thousand dollars on a credit card that we had never used, in a wall-Mart in Nebraska, and another in Chicago, I spent time with the special fraud unit at my bank, along with the local sheriff, "who also had been a victim of fraud", and the feds" I called them also because the people went into our bank Branch and had a "KIT" which consisted of both my and my wife's ID, ranging from Drivers License, SS card, and several other pieces of I, that it would be impossible for the average person to even figure out how thy go these, since they never leave my safe.
It was explained to us over the next 2 weeks that they hack into data basis, so what ever you do makes no difference. they get your SS# and name and address, from there we are told it's basically open season. They can even try to get a 2nd or third mortgage on your home without you even knowing, same with your taxes, they can file an amended return and you can spend the next 2-3 years trying to clear your name. If you doubt this, then just go to the IRS website where you can download the paperwork to send the IRS to prevent anyone form being able to do this by password protecting your returns in order to file. It doesn't matter what you make, they can file a new amended return get a bunch of money back, then you won't know it till the following year.
This is why worrying where your gun goes , "although a noble thought" is impossible to really know. unfortunately in this modern world things are rarely what they seem. The way things are set up now, it is too easy to get around the law if you are a bad guy, especially when you have guys selling guns for double what they cost new, for that exact reason. they even say in their ad that they just will ask you if you are allowed to own a gun. I wrote to that and their websites about their policy's and they thanked me and did nothing about it, so I agree with you, but it's not going to change anything unless you sell through an ffl.
When you read or hear about stores like Target getting hacked, that is 40 million sets if ID out there that have been compromised, there is no way to put and end to it, without going back to cash. If you are saying what does this have to do with selling a gun, the answer is you really don't know who the person you are dealing wit, is who they say they are, unless you know them personally, that's why I said it really doesn't matter, all you can do is follow protocol, and use your best judgement.

 

[Warp]

It's not an exaggeration, it's just that you are not aware of it. When someone charged over 20 thousand dollars on a credit card that we had never used, in a wall-Mart in Nebraska, and another in Chicago, I spent time with the special fraud unit at my bank, along with the local sheriff, "who also had been a victim of fraud", and the feds" I called them also because the people went into our bank Branch and had a "KIT" which consisted of both my and my wife's ID, ranging from Drivers License, SS card, and several other pieces of I, that it would be impossible for the average person to even figure out how thy go these, since they never leave my safe.
It was explained to us over the next 2 weeks that they hack into data basis, so what ever you do makes no difference. they get your SS# and name and address, from there we are told it's basically open season. They can even try to get a 2nd or third mortgage on your home without you even knowing, same with your taxes, they can file an amended return and you can spend the next 2-3 years trying to clear your name. If you doubt this, then just go to the IRS website where you can download the paperwork to send the IRS to prevent anyone form being able to do this by password protecting your returns in order to file. It doesn't matter what you make, they can file a new amended return get a bunch of money back, then you won't know it till the following year.
This is why worrying where your gun goes , "although a noble thought" is impossible to really know. unfortunately in this modern world things are rarely what they seem. The way things are set up now, it is too easy to get around the law if you are a bad guy, especially when you have guys selling guns for double what they cost new, for that exact reason. they even say in their ad that they just will ask you if you are allowed to own a gun. I wrote to that and their websites about their policy's and they thanked me and did nothing about it, so I agree with you, but it's not going to change anything unless you sell through an ffl.
When you read or hear about stores like Target getting hacked, that is 40 million sets if ID out there that have been compromised, there is no way to put and end to it, without going back to cash. If you are saying what does this have to do with selling a gun, the answer is you really don't know who the person you are dealing wit, is who they say they are, unless you know them personally, that's why I said it really doesn't matter, all you can do is follow protocol, and use your best judgement.

I don't see how somebody bought all of that for $205.

Perhaps you can explain this...how does the Target information getting hacked mean any random person can buy your driver license, SS card, and birth certificate (and have quality physically presentable forms for use in a face to face transaction) for $25?

 

[oneounceload]

Something tells me more than the three day old fish smells...............

 

[danez71]

I don't see how somebody bought all of that for $205.

Perhaps you can explain this...how does the Target information getting hacked mean any random person can buy your driver license, SS card, and birth certificate (and have quality physically presentable forms for use in a face to face transaction) for $25?

What gym said is somewhat accurate. $25 or $500 dollars to buy stolen identity... whats the difference really??

In regards to the Target type hacking... a lot depends on what they were able to actually get AND un-encrypt.

A drivers license# isn't required for a Target card... neither is a birth certificate... but a SS# is. And that can lead to a lot of other data.... if they can UN-encrypt the data. Some of these criminal are dang smart!


But back to something that resembles the OP's topic..... saying things like "trying to play crime stopper is a waste of time" as a way to justify not running a back ground check is ridiculous.

I'm sure he locks his doors at night.. he has SD/HD guns.. might even have an alarm on his car etc. etc. And I'm sure he wouldn't knowingly sell to a violent felon.

If he truly believed that statement, he wouldn't do any of those things.


Some people choose to go the FFL route to sell or trade-in guns because the added NCIS check is correct 99.99X% of the time and if that keeps a gun away from a bad guy then that's a good thing.


For me and my own piece of mind, I want to be reasonably sure I'm selling to a good guy.

I realize everyone has their own comfort level.

For me, some random dude from Craigslist that says he isn't a bad guy isn't enough. I want more than that. If I cant satisfy my own level of comfort, I trade-in or sell using an FFL.

 

[Sam1911]

[Ahem -- might want to leave identity theft discussions for an identity theft and financial security website. Thanks.]