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Semi Auto Machine pistols- any practical value?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by TTv2, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    Last year when I watched a video from Forgotten Weapons on the Vz 61 I was really amazed by its small size, low recoil, and ease of control during full auto fire. Now, we can't get full auto here, maybe binary triggers will come in time for more guns outside the AR platform, but I started thinking about true machine pistols and if they had any value over a standard pistol.

    The H&K MP5k is pretty much a machine pistol due to its size and with the action it has that reduces recoil it has merit, but not for 3 grand.

    The Micro Uzi and MAC 11 are cheaper, but are regularly around $1000. They are blowback guns, the recoil will be more with them in 9mm and .380.

    At the next lowest price is the Vz 61 for $700 to $800 in the .32 ACP. Also straight blowback, but in the smaller caliber and at the same weight as the Uzi and MAC means the recoil is lighter than the 9mm and .380.

    So, what do you gentleman think about a semi auto variant of a machine pistol? Is there any practical use for them outside of collecting or range fun? Could they make good competition guns? Maybe even home defense firearms if fitted with a brace?
     
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  2. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    I think more a novelty than anything.
    I believe a PCC would be more useful.
     
  3. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    To me, guns that aren't a "traditional handgun" need some type of stock on them (or another way to be stabilized) to be used effectively. I trained extensively with the MP5, and the MP5K variant w/ no stock seemed pointless. As far as the semi-auto mode, heck yes. Even when I trained with the MP5, I did everything on semi. In fact, I wished it hadn't even had FA because there were a few times I hit the selector "too hard" and by-passed semi altogether.
     
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  4. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    I agree PCC's are going to be easier to shoot, more accurate, have more power, but they are larger firearms than machine pistols as they have stocks or braces on them.
     
  5. George P

    George P Member

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    Where is here?
     
  6. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Not for me.

    Novelty value, but I don't see it.
     
  7. dodo bird

    dodo bird Member

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    Just realized you meant only SEMIauto versions after I made a post on the Glock 18. Not as fun but I do like this Scorpio’s 32acp. Just a little pricey for me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  8. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    I think that in the vein of having a legal representation of a storied firearm, that it is kind of cool.

    Much like a former Service Member wanting an otherwise exact copy of his carried firearm. For the most part, aside from the lack of sear-pin, a well built AR can look exactly like a fella's M-4, CAR or M-16.

    So, why not have an UZI because you dig the IDF or MAC because you read lots of SOF growing up or are a Zevon fan or maybe a Scorpion.... the REAL one because - hell's bells - it's a SCORPION!

    Todd.
     
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  9. Aikibiker

    Aikibiker Member

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    I have a Scorpion EVO 2 pistol and it is a lot of fun to shoot. I used it in a night match recently with a red dot sight and TLR-1 and did pretty well. It is very fast on target and handles well with an SBT 1913 brace attached to a picatinny rail adapter on the back. The Scorpion EVO is a direct blowback 9mm and recoil can be abrupt, but not unpleasant, during regular bench rest, slow fire, range shooting. In the excitement of competition or when shooting fun/complicated tactical drills, the recoil is not noticeable at all. In all shooting types the Scorpion comes back on target quickly and easily and accurate follow upshots are fast enough to get me yelled at, by my local county run range with their 1 second between shots rule.

    For self defense, I believe it would be useful inside a house or when used inside/around a vehicle, though a concealed pistol will be faster into action if you are starting out inside a car, such weapons excel as "truck guns" since they can be easily concealed inside a vehicle cabin and easily manipulated to engage threats outside the car. It's short length and light weight means that it can be wielded one handed while controlling children, opening doors, any other task that would take one hand off the gun in a defensive encounter. In the rare black swan event that would require a defensive shot at longer range such a weapon will easily out perform a regular handgun, though an actual rifle shooting a rifle caliber is obviously superior for that unlikely scenario.

    The only issue is ammunition choice for self defense. Modern defensive hollow points are very well made, but were (mostly) designed to be shot from a duty sized pistol with a barrel somewhere around 5 inches in length. Some, including my preferred 124 gr Speer Gold Dot load, begin to over expand and possibly lose mass when shot from the 7.71 inch barrel of the Scorpion. 115 gr projectiles are even worse. The heavier, slower 147 grain hollow points tend to perform much better out of the longer barrels.

    That was my findings with a sample size of one. If you are looking for an "excuse" to get one, just do it because they are a lot of fun.
     
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  10. Aikibiker

    Aikibiker Member

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    Oh, I did have my trigger return spring replaced with one from HBI Tactical, and it made a huge improvement to the trigger pull. The spring kit was $9.00 and a local gun smith with a lot of experience working on the Scorpion EVO's did the work for me, though if you are comfortable taking apart trigger groups it did not look to hard to do yourself. the gun smith's suggestion was to only replace the trigger return spring since the rest of the kit from HBI is unnecessary and he had seen some people have problems with their weapon after installing the disconnector spring.

    I also had a problem with the barrel being over torqued from the factory. A rare, but not unheard of issue with the Scorpions. CZ would have fixed it for free, but the smith had the tools handy and did it at no extra charge while installing the trigger return spring.
     
  11. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    There are some guns I look at that might be fun as a novelty in the short run, but would probably be pretty useless in real life. One such would be a Thompson, which might be fun, but then you're left with carrying around an extremely large and heavy .45.

    Same for an Uzi, you're stuck with a heavy 9mm, which any 9mm Glock with a 33 round mag could duplicate at a small fraction of the weight.

    I can see the attraction, but buying one is just not for me. I've fired full auto versions at Knob Creek, and that was enough to scratch the itch.

    I guess my Keltec Sub2000 is close enough, and a heck of a lot cheaper.
     
  12. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Useful for sweeping infantry off your tank through a pistol port, otherwise probably not.
     
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  13. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Several issues here.
    For one, BATFE rejects out of hand open-bolt actions as a semi-autos.
    So, you have to replumb anything you are building as a replica.

    For something new, you are stuck with closed bolt. But, that's also not a "machine pistol" either. (And there are a bunch of non-uniform State regs on whether or not a "pistol" can have things like forward magwells, anything grip-able in front of the handgrip, and so on.

    Now, as an actual machine pistol, they have a niche, if a bit of a narrow one. Like, as noted above, for clearing miscreants off your armored vehicle; or coping with an assault on a limo or similar VIP transport. But, as a "semi" machine pistol, such an arm is basically no more than a basic handgun. Or a carbine (which is a different set of laws, rules, and regs).
     
  14. Rock185

    Rock185 Member

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    Novelty/range toy.
     
  15. Sebastian the Ibis
    • Contributing Member

    Sebastian the Ibis Member

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    For the most part guns are a trade-off between transportability and firepower. Handguns which can be attached to the hip and forgotten rule the transportability category. Long-guns (AK/AR/Shotgun/etc.) offer substantially more firepower. Machine pistols are a compromise between those two, and usually don't make sense outside of a specific space constrained niche (i.e. we have this much space under the seat, what's the biggest gun we can fit there?). Gagillions have been spent developing novelties to satisfy whatever the specific requirements are of any given RFP. The GAU-5A survival rifle, APC-9 and Sig Rattler are all recent examples. If you want to go back further look at the Tanker Garand, or even a 1800s cavalry carbine. However, all of these weapons were designed to fit highly specific requirements. Absent those requirements, something else is probably better.

    The two other areas where a semi-machine pistol make sense are door kicking and suppressed applications. Short barreled weapons are handier for going around corners, getting out of a vehicle fast and harder to wrestle away. Most folks engaged in this line of work are able to obtain full-auto weapons, but I knew some old 80's era Miami Police Officers that kept their own semi- AK or AR pistols for particularly nasty calls. Another niche is suppression. If you want to use a subsonic bullet to keep the noise down, a long barrel is not necessary. A stock or a sling makes fast accurate shooting much easier -- this combination lands you squarely in machine pistol territory. I am sure suburban trash cans have been defended from varmints with this type of set up.

    Finally, I have a semi 9mm machine pistol, just so that I can use it at the indoor range that is limited to pistol calibers -- again a very niche use.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  16. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    I was told by a very reliable source that a LEO on a robbery stakeout in Florence, SC a couple of years ago did the same thing. The forensic guys had fun tracking down and accounting for all the .40 caliber projectiles.
     
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  17. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I have a CZ Scorpion with a Franklin Armory trigger and while fun and fairly cheap to shoot you have to get into a rhythm with them if you’re going to start throwing out a ton of lead.

    Here’s mine ...



    That’s the first time I shot it, but I’d shot such triggers before. It also had some hiccups on installing.

    It’s fun, but push comes to shove I’ll stick with semi if things go bad.
     
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  18. John G C 1

    John G C 1 Member

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    Yeah, that's why I was thinking of getting one. :)
     
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  19. jamesinalaska

    jamesinalaska Member

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    Many guards in 3rd world nations preferthe semi-auto machine pistols. They carry them on a sling over their shoulder and at hip level so if ever called upon all that's needed is for the guard to drop hands onto the piece and to start "point shooting". Those pieces are typically kept loaded and ready.
     
  20. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

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  21. HiDive

    HiDive Member

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    I never have cared much for SA Machine Pistols. I would rather have a conventional handgun. Regardless of that I can not own one here in Hawaii anyway. I have lived in many states that allowed them but have never considered buying one. Now if we are talking about a full auto suppressed machine pistol like an HK MP5 in 10mm suppressed; now that would be the ****!
     
  22. CNobbe

    CNobbe Member

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    I bought a Grand Power Stribog w/ brace as I thought it'd be a fun range gun, and it is. I also have an Uzi Pro w/ brace. I traded the Stribog for something else, the Uzi isn't quite as big and still makes for a great range or home defense pistol. but honestly..a Glock 17 w/ a 33 round mag does the same thing.
     
  23. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    My opinion is there is not all that much practical use for them. But fun is important too.
     
  24. Janos Dracwlya

    Janos Dracwlya Member

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    I'd really love to have a semi-auto Stechkin, just because.
     
  25. drk1

    drk1 Member

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    They keep me from spending $20,000 to $50,000 on the "real" thing. That's kind of practical!
     
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