Semi-automatic shotgun reliability

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I always cringe when I seen a Benelli shooter show up with a case of Walmart Winchester Bulk pack because I know we are going to have a fun day of malfunction clearing!

I thought I'd just pile on this one.

My 12ga Benelli Montefeltro has run everything from stout 1 1/4 oz hunting loads to 7/8 oz 1150fps reloads, and has yet to choke on anything. Officially, they are designed to work with 1 1/8 oz 2 3/4 dram and heavier loads, but I've not experienced any issues at all with many thousands of shells through it. The only caveat is that I do keep the gun very clean... which is easy due to the ease with which you can field strip it.

I have witnessed firsthand problems with a Benelli SBE and 1 1/8 oz target loads running about 1150fps. It seemed to short-stroke and wouldn't chamber the second round reliably. IIRC, the gun was a little dirty, but far from filthy.

With shells running in the 1 - 1 1/8 oz range and around 1200 fps, I've shot one-handed from the shoulder and a few two-handed from the hip with the Montefeltro, and it's not been a problem.

As far as cleaning... I've gotten a little more relaxed about it over the last year or so, and it still hasn't made a difference. I was thinking about running a test for 2004 and seeing how many shells it would take without cleaning to cause my 391 to choke. That resolution made it almost a full week. I just can't bring myself to put a gun into the safe if it's not at least wiped down... and if you wipe it down, it only takes another couple minutes to clean the bolt, inside of the receiver and bore.

BTW, with the value packs, the only time I've seen problems is when some were sticking in my friends Ithaca/SKB O/U. I doubt it was the shells, though... that thing needed some serious attention.
 
" Mr. McCracken, the group from THR is over there"
[We wonderful shotgunners from THR are sitting like "choir boys" waiting to meet Mr. McCracken] *ahem* A couple of reponses/reactions from Dave.

- Heads over with grin and hand extended.

-States, in clear voice..."I never heard of that bunch in my entire life".

- "I came for the fried chicken, RC, and moon pies, What is a THR"?

- Remembers his dad said there would days like this.

-Says those words he swore he never would for fear of sounding like his father..." I can't take you fella's anywhere".

:D
 
I'm thinking of two Benelli guys in particular. Both were shooting the value pack stuff, the main reason I remember is because I was shooting the same thing. I can't recall if there were side saddles or not.
 
Dave, put your soda down and take a deep breath.........




Ready?




When you don't clean a shotgun for several thousand rounds the plastic will get pushed/plowed/peeled right out in hunks while shooting, sometimes even visably you see a tuft of plastic come out. It builds up to a point that it can't hang on to the bore anymore, and then it gets peeled by a wad coming down, then it builds up.........
 
sm, it's Option A, and never doubt it. I'll be glad to meet any of you folks. The ones I've met so far have been pretty well behaved. A couple insisted on outshooting me, but I'm used to that...

As for cleaning,maybe I'm old fashioned.So be it.My great grandchildren(if any) will thank my memory.....

What's that, Granny?

Why,it's my father's favorite hunting gun. He called it Frankenstein.

Kewl
...
 
OKAY. I'm no expert, engineer or theorist. I do stuff to see what happens I observe. So a couple of thoughts, just based on MY experiences.

Some guns fit some people better than others,just like limpwristing with semi-auto handguns do. A better fit for one individual does not mean a better fit for someone else.

Some guns do not like certain people. I have no problem with Glocks if a person chooses to use one, or is required to as it is an issued weapon. Glocks do no like ME. I open two boxes with two new guns, first gun I un-wrap the font sight is off the gun and falls on floor. Second gun is out back being shot. these are brand new guns mind you. The fellow has run a couple of mags. I shoot his new gun about a half a mag...trigger thingy breaks! OK Glocks don't like me and my gunbuddy will not let around one.
Same deal with Shotguns...some shotguns just don't like certain people.

Guns have certain ammo minimum req's, some defy, some are more picky.

Ammo is supposed to made to spec's, Sometimes the ammo gremlin goofs up a lot.

Chambers, Chambers, Chambers. Just like Mother-in-laws, you get all kinds, that behave all kinds of ways. Some are easy to please, some are gonna fuss no matter what...always have that bunch that like to meddle. Chambers have to work with the extractor( like the wifey). If MIL ain't happy wifey ain't happy and no matter what you do they will BOTH work against you.

Some chambers are become more easily dirty with plastic fouling and require more frequent cleaning. Some are not spec'd as long as should. [couple with ammo spec'd too long and problem compounded...]Some are more tight so if ammo is not spec'd as closely as should ( inexpensive priced loads) ...or...not re-sized properly ( one gun chamber is larger and not re-sized to fit the smaller of chambers) we have a problem.

Back to the Inertia dealie. Some guns need to held more tight/solid in order for system to work. So as mentioned before that extra weight with add-ons can effect the ability for gun to run. Or anytime on deviates from original gun other things can be affected.

Binding from too tight of bolts. Too short of bbl affects dwell time, and the weight increase "can affect" dwell time. Opening ports to run a certain ammo will cause another(other ) ammo to not run. If gun is too heavy for a good shoulder/snug fit won't run. Sometimes the more one tries to tweak the more they get into trouble. like no matter what you do you have MIL and wifey mad at you...always be nice to the dog and build a good dog house from get-go.

Lubrication. This Topic irks me to no end. We have way too many "line extensions" on products today. I have no problem with free market ideas, but can I just buy something without having to choose b/t regular/light/ reduced/improved/low fat/no fat/ babypowder or bubblegum scent?

Most folks over-lube - period!
Other bunch improper lube.
Most folks over clean the bores, never clean the chamber, extractor, or action.
Most folks are NOT going to run a bazillion rounds b/t cleaning and lubing as the "lube" states it can do, and recomended by the Mutant Bear Society on Mars.

They gotta mess with the gun, so they can eat off the bore, everytime there is nothing on TV. They never inspect and maintain the critical stuff. They do try all the new stuff that is ordered or store bought. They clean and lube new guns to try new cleaning and lube stuff...on a clean gun that has not been dry-fired...forget the live ammo...the monies went for "lube" instead of ammo or range fees.

The gun will tell you with use and practice and upon inspection at what intervals IT ( the guns) requires PROPER cleaning and lubing.

Make a tool, clean the chamber with 0000 steel wool or Scotchbrite, keep dry and clean, brush extractors and bolt face, and get the cut-out on chamber where extractor fits ( yeah that notch looking dealie) . Pipe cleaners work on ports...some folks don't even need the proper size "port drill " if you will to clean. Get one stuck and whoa boy...pipe cleaners are fine.
 
I know this won't win me any type of "oldest gun" award, but I recently bought an 1100 that turned out to be from 1963, the first year that the model was made. It was so old that it had a metal gas ring, and the CS lady from Remington told me she didn't remember them ever having a metal one (the newer ones are rubber). The gun was rather dirty, but I cleaned it and have yet to see a single malfunction.

Travis
 
i'm certainly no expert when it comes to shotguns. in fact, i'm a downright rookie. one thing that sprang to mind when considering the reliabilty of a semi shotgun, or lack thereof, is the fact that shotguns don't have the luxury of nice tapered, round point loads like rifles and pistols do. a slight variation in the timing of the action of a shotgun could lead to the rim of the front of the load hanging up on the edge of a chamber. not so prevelent in a pistol or rifle where there is a room to fudge on position of the round before it goes in the chamber and still have it go in properly. just a thought.
 
Two points about Semi-Autos

Hi all.

First of all, I love semi-autos in all shapes and sized and that extends to my shotguns. Keeping ahead of the cleaning requirements is all that's necessary to keep yourself in the field.

If you're in shirt-sleeve weather all the time, maybe you can escape cleaning but once the temps go down, all that crud buildup might cause problems. I've never had a stoppage for any reason (except for the post mentioned here at this forum.....and what WASN'T because of a dirty gun!).

However, I do have an issue with semi-autos that I don't think has been discussed here. That issue is if your semi-auto shotgun will shoot straight-up, over your head or even slightly upside down!

Do not take this for granted unless you've tried it. I did...unintentionally as I was tracking a duck flying directly at me and overhead. I didn't get on point with it until it was almost directly over head. I fired the first time as I was at about 11:30. The next shot would have been at about 12:30, or just beyond straight up........click......nothing. No shell was chambered. This bothered me until I remembered that I'd read about this issue a few years back but had forgotten. Now it all came back to me. The thrust of the article was that some shotguns.....usually less expensive ones.....will not shoot straight up as they won't chamber a shell.

So, try it with your shotgun the next time you're out by yourself. Shoot a shot just slighty past 1200 and see if your second shot loads.

Rome
 
Rome,
You are a right smart fella, I knew I liked you for a reason. :)

I test all my guns with ammo for reliability 100% of time. I'm talking shotguns, handguns, rifles. In semi-auto actions - again with shotgun, handgun, rifles . Everything gets tested to run with ammo 100% of the time. Upside down, weak hand ( weakside) , loose hold ( limpwristed) , ejection port "up" and "down".

Hunting is one thing, but you are correct Rome shooting straight or past can and does affect some guns.

What if...using same gun, in a SD / HD one had to shoot at 12:30...say the BG is above you 2nd floor of your house and you are on first level and you need to shoot at 12:30. Or BG in a warehouse using the various levels we find and above.

What if...you are using supine prone for conceal, would your gunand loads shoot, shoot port up/down...if on weak side and the hold is bit less than strong side. You've been injured. If your are on your back and had to shoot over your head...could you?

I understand most folks don't consider this for hunting,or clays games. One never knows if that gun MIGHT have to be used in a SD /HD situation.

Missing a duck is one thing due to ammo and gun not running...some stuff one cannot afford to NOT have a gun run with ammo 100%.
 
Well, SM, you made my day!

Don't you just love it when you see some movie BG shooting his 45 by holding it sideways or upside down yet it fires perfectly every time? If limpwristing a 45 can cause a stovepipe, imagine what shooting in someother direction. And, no, I don't suggest that you shoot your .45 straight up in the air with a full load. Maybe a wadcutter just to check function. Of course, any LEO rated firearm should have already been tested for this.

Anyway, I did experience this situation with my inexpensive Stoeger semi SG and now know to check it at the range before I take it into the field. I've got that new 11-87 and I'm looking forward to trying it out today and I may just give that upside down shot a try! I'll post my results if I get the chance to go out.

Have a stellar day!

Rome
 
Rome, don't you know, if it wasn't true...they wouldn't put it on TV and in the movies...LOL :D

Seriously, My 1911 styles will shoot in any direction , I in fact test and make sure they will, weak handed as well. With thumb and trigger finger upside down, they will run. All my semi - autos do. I insist.

OH , FWIW...mags will NOT "drop up"...yes I have tested and nope, they will not drop up, don't care how hard you press mag release .:)

Yes my semi -auto shotguns will run with me on my back shooting over my head, regardless of hand/hold,or position of port. Yes they will run weak handed only...not against a shoulder, my hip...just one-handed ( weak handed mind you) point and shoot the complete mag tube. I hope I'm never in a position of being on my back and having to shoot over my head with weak hand "just up in the air pointing back"...the gun runs, I just had to know.

I insist on stuff like this. Go check out your new toy and see for yourself...I hope you never have to use it in this manner, peace of mind ...you cannot put a value on it.
 
I admit I have not tested my Benelli for reliability while shooting straight up. Neither have I tested my 1911s in the same manner, (For obvious safety reasons, yes, I know those bullets are only supposed to come down at 200 fps, but why take chances?).

Still, my Benelli M1super90, Saiga-20, variations of m1911, M1, M1a, SKS, FAL, AR15, Mini-14, and Tokarev M-40 continue to function with boring reliability. I think that this has something to do with proper cleaning and maintenance.
 
1100's, Benelli's yadidada, sure they are the high tech race guns. Good mechanical condition long recoil Brownings NEVER FAIL EVER!:p
 
will not shoot straight up as they won't chamber a shell.


This is a moot point for Smoke. He learned a long time ago that once a target reaches about 10:00 while flying overhead, he has no chance of putting the shot cloud anywhere near that bird. So they are allowed to travel on their merry way or turn around and shoot them from behind.

My shotguns only need to cylce at an angle somewhere slightly above 45 degrees.:D

Smoke - can't shoot straight up
 
I shot an IDPA match on saturday that included a shotgun side match.

I was one of the few guys there that didn't have really expensive tricked out shotguns (I used my stock moss. 500).

During the match, I noticed that almost everyone with a semi-automatic shotgun was having weapon-related problems.

I thought this was strange, and I started to pay attention more closely, and sure enough, almost every single person with an automatic (except for one or two of the best guys) had some kind of weapon-failure during the first stage. The second stage was no better.

After seeing this, I decided that my cheap little pump gun was more than adequate for home defense, and that I didn't really need an expensive automatic.


I think most of these problems are the result of heavily modifying the weapons to be fast in competition, rather than reliable. Also the cold weather, and the rarity of shotgun matches may have been a factor. Some guys did not seem familiar with their weapons, and had goof up problems, and the awkward shooting positions and angles may have contributed too. But still...
 
Benelli inertia system

The Benelli inertia recoil system works quite differently than a Browning Auto 5 or a Colt M1911, for instance. In the Benelli, the bolt is a 2 piece affair, with a bolt body separate from the bolt head, which locks into the barrel extension. The body and head are joined by a coil spring in between. Upon firing, recoil causes the whole gun to recoil rearward. Since the bolt body is not locked to the barrel, it tends to remain stationary due to inertia. When the gun recoils and the bolt body remains stationary, the bolt body compresses the bolt spring between the body and the head. When the spring then rebounds, it forces the bolt body rearward, taking the bolt head with it, unlocking the head and allowing the bolt to function. It is exceedingly simple and reliable, but does require a certain amount of recoil velocity to work. The lightest loads may not work, but if you hold the gun more loosely, it may work. If it doesn't function and your hang on to it tighter, it gets worse, not better. This is also backwards from most recoil systems. Just remember, the gun itself must move in recoil for the action to function. Also, it kicks a bit, but it is very very clean due to no gas system. Hope this helps.
 
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