"Serious" Shotgun reliability criteria....

[Dave McCracken]

With the ongoing debate between us pumpgunners and those nice but misguided auto users, maybe we should define what we regard as acceptable reliability for a tool our lives can depend on.

Going on something Ayoob wrote a couple decades back, here's my rule of reliability, good for all types of defensive firearms. A given here is they are shot in and not new.

A defensive firearm MUST be able to fire at least 200 rounds without a glitch using both the ammo of choice and the most commonly available ammo for that weapon under field conditions.In these uncertain and perilous times, this ensures ammo will be there for us as needed. For a 12 gauge, this means it not only flawlessly fires one's pick of buck and slugs, but a 1 1/8 oz, 3 dram field load.

A FTF rate less than .5% seems acceptable. If one of your crisis management tools exceeds this, it's time to rectify same.

What's YOUR take on this?....

 

[Al Thompson]

I agree. One additional point involves the nature of the jam. If I can figure out why the jam occured and what caused it, I regard it as acceptable and fixable. I've had firearms jam for no identifiable reason and they go back into the safe until fixed or retested. I have sold a couple that choked at strange times and got sold as I was never confident with them after that.

In my HD shtguns, I also hand cycle the "duty" ammo through the shotgun. It's rare, but I've found out of spec cartridges. Loading, chambering and extracting them gives me confidence.

 

[HS/LD]

Ahhhh I can relax...

After some afternoon Shotgunnery on the Wednesday just passed, my moderately new but now well used Winchester 1300 Defender has fed, struck the primer and ejected...
(from counting the ammo box flaps I have saved) a little under 6000 shells, without a glitch of any kind.

I am drinking some coffee this Saturday morning and then heading out to shoot all manner of firearms this afternoon. The 1300 should get another 200 today.

Reliability is running 100%. I will however report the first failure here.

Have a wonderful day everyone and since it is Saturday. Get some shooting in.

Regards,
HS/LD

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Dumped 200 rds through my auto within an hour of "blasting" fun two weeks ago. Prior to that, it hadn't been cleaned from the last 200 rds. It's a low shot count for an outing, but when I bring it out, it usually has 200 thrown down the tube. I regularly maintain my firearms and generally clean them after every outing. I don't see a need for me to torture test or neglect my guns for the same reason I don't torture test my cars.

Collectively, all 400 shots fired consisted of whatever the Wal-Mart $14.88 100rd boxes contain.

What's my take on this? My auto works great and my confidence has yet to be compromised. Auto, pump, whatever just so long as you're happy and confident with it.

 

[BerettaNut92]

My Benelli has performed flawlessly even with light field loads....I agree with Dave though I own an auto and I expect the same reliability with my shotty as I do with my pistols.

 

[TrapperReady]

Dave McC will probably wince at this, but the ONLY FTF I've ever had with a shotgun (and I shoot at least couple hundred shells per week) was with an 870.

Of course, it was an old gun (the first time I'd used it) and I hadn't been quite thorough enough when I first cleaned it. It now works flawlessly.

All of my other shotguns have many thousands of shells through them, mostly with pretty light target loads.

If I had to pick one, and only one to trust my life on, it would be my Benelli Montefeltro 12ga. Then again, if I were to get something specifically for HD, I'd get a 12ga 870. Go figure.

For now, the P220 works well enough.

 

[HSMITH]

My take on it is that the standard is a little conservative, I like to see 250 rounds per session minimum for TWO sessions with duty ammo and NO cleaning or maintenance. It is an expensive proposition with hydrashocks for the ol' 45, but that is what I need to see to be all warm and fuzzy feeling. A shotgun should be 100%, not 99.95% for 500 rounds at least of whatever you can buy or load. My 870 has gone well over 15K rounds since the last failure, and my SuperX2 3.5" is over 11K rounds since the last failure. My Browning Gold 20 ga is over 6K, Red Label 12SC over 35K, 1100 is over 5K, Citori over 10K, and on and on and on. Load or buy good ammo and a shotgun should NEVER even hiccup. Since late 1995 I have shot over 150K rounds of 12ga and the guns that will not go a full thousand rounds without fuss are ALL GONE. There are too many good shotguns out there to put up with any failures.

Ammo induced failures are still failures too........

 

[Kestrel]

HSMITH,

I agree with your reliability expectations.

I have several 870s and 11-87s. I haven't shot any of the 11-87s, but wish I had read the postings on this forum before I bought any of them. I don't get the feeling they are reliable. And I spent a premium on one of them from Wilson/Scattergun Technologies...

I may sell the 11-87s, but will definitely keep the 870s.

Steve

 

[jawper]

SteveW13,

What model is your Scatterguns Tech 1187? I might be interested in taking it off your hands. Please feel free to contact me off board if you'd like.

Thanks!

 

[Sir Galahad]

I can't bring myself to put away a weapon without cleaning it. I've never done it. I never will. Weapons maintenance is the first thing you do after shooting, even before eating, no matter how hungry you are. I've made that Rule #1 and, so, my weapons have never let me down and they all look new out of the box even thousands of rounds later. I don't have to worry about if a dirty weapon is going to let me down because I don't have dirty weapons. I don't think letting a weapon go a week or more between cleanings proves anything. Who would honestly go a week without cleaning a weapon their life depends on, even in a desperate situation? In a desperate situation, you would MAKE time to clean that weapon, even if you did not have time to spare. If you were under direct fire for a week to where you never had time to clean that weapon, you'd need more than a shotgun. You'd need access to a field radio and a fire mission from 155s.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Have any of you guys ever compared recoil operated against gas op guns on a reliability. I have heard nothing but good from the guys I know using the Benelli super black eagle, I use a Franchi AL48 and have had very good luck. Kinda thinking of picking up an Auto 5 Browning for house duty. I know from buddys who shoot Mexican dove that in an auto shucker they prefer recoil operated guns as they will sometimes bring in a couple of hundred birds in a day using mexican shotshells which to hear them tell it are extremely dirty shooting. One used a Browning Gold and said he had great luck but he said it did like a lot of oil to run well.
Just curious if an older Auto 5 or AL48 Franchi would make a good house gun.
Gerald

 

[firestar]

I have a Rem 870 HD with about 1K shells through it with no problems, that is when I start to really trust a gun. 1K with no problems is a good rule of thumb for me on any gun.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Obviously,quite a few of us have devoted considerable time and thought to this very subject. Thanks for the responses...

Good idea,Al. There are rare instances of out of spec ammo,even with the best makers.Also, "Serious" ammo should be rotated regularly and frequently. I suggest using the ammo stored in the weapon on the nect range trip, and then replacing with new. That should be cycled too.

HS/LD,Obviously, your handle stands for He Shoots Like Dave!(Insert evil cackle)...

Mo' to the point, great job. I'd sure like to have observed you at the beginning of that 6K run and both timed and scored you on some realistic COFs, then compared those times and scores to the last ones.

Duke and Skunk, Amen!

TR, ignorance, abuse and neglect will $%^&* up even the best tools. The 870 isn't foolproof, because fools are so amazingly ingenious.

H, good approach.Good and reliable shotguns are too easy to obtain to put up with less. And regular PM works wonders for longevity. My criteria is intended as a minimum, a starting point.

8-10K through my oldest 870,6-7K for the TB, 2-3K for Frankenstein, maybe 2 for the Deer 870. Zero glitches....

Steve, 11-87s are not universally turkeys. Shoot the heck out of the ones you have. If they fail, sell them off and get more 870s, ammo, or buy a trip to Gunsite,etc.

Galahad, you and Pop would have gotten along fine.

Gerald, a reliable recoil auto is reliable de facto. If your Franchi(Excellent gun) passes the test, use it. If not, reserve it for recreational usage and pick up a Big Four pump.

Firestar, good start. BA/UU/R....

Excellent as always, Erick. Right now, out of maybe 7 firearms that may be employed for "Serious" use here, only the HBAR(Hill Billy Assault Rifle, AKA Model 94 Winchester 30-30) has less than 1K rounds through it glitch free. And time will take care of the 94. It works or goes, period.

And folks, while we insist on absolutely reliable shotguns,we do know and practice clearance drills, right?...

 

[Island Beretta]

M3 Benelli .. unrivalled for reliability!!

 

[Ian]

Hmmm...can't say my coach gun has ever had a feeding, firing, or extracting malfunction. Zero ammo pickiness, too. All I need now is a sling, flashlight mount, and lots more practice time on the range.

 

[Edward429451]

My HD 870 has never had any problems. Lots of rounds, Dont count them. I'm confident in it.

And folks, while we insist on absolutely reliable shotguns,we do know and practice clearance drills, right?...

Uhh, No. Got a drill or 2 for me? (Duck, rack, bang?)
Shell over lifter jam? How to?

(Thats what I like about McCraken, just when you think you're on top of it, out goes the rug and more reality is introduced.)

On a side note dave, one of my 870's shell latch's always come out when broken down for cleaning. (On my old 1200 they both came out all the time and I just fiddle them back in place and never had a problem.) I've heard they're supposed to stay staked in place, but wonder if I'm setting myself up for a malf at the wrong time if I continue to just dis/re assemble it as I've always done. I've probably did this 100 times and never had a problem yet. Thoughts?

 

[Smoke]

With the ongoing debate between us pumpgunners and those nice but misguided auto users, maybe we should define what we regard as acceptable reliability for a tool our lives can depend on

I love that!.

But as a diehard 870 fan, I will confess that as soon as a spare grand is lying around I WILL have a Benilli auto in the arsenal.

Misguided? Perhaps....but oh the fun we will have!

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Misguided? Perhaps....but oh the fun we will have!

Misguided?!

You're only misguided if you take the advice that you're not comfortable with or doesn't work for you!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Island Beretta, run 10K rounds through that M3 under field and hunting conditions and get back to me. It may be a good shotgun(probably is), but the track record is too short compared to 870s.

Edward, the floating threads at the top of this forum have a thread on clearance drills for the 870.

Also, never heard of a shell latch coming adrift while the 870's assembled and malfing. my Tb had one that did the same thing when I dropped the TG. A few thousand rounds went through it before I had a smith restake it. Just an annoyance....

 

[foghornl]

I have put a few thousand rounds through my Maverick 88, from slugs to #8 skeet loads. It goes BANG! every time I mash the trigger.

For me, that's all I need...a weapon that goes BANG! every time.

 

[9mmMike]

Kind of mildly amusing....
Of all my 870's I have one that has consistently given me problems. It has an issue with lifting the shells high enough or fast enough so that the bottom edge of the round catches on the lower edge of the chamber. A double pump would usually feed the shell but it was very annoying and that first time was pretty hard on the arms as you tried to rack that pump handle forward and it stopped early!
This dern problem got me so obsessed that I began to use this 870 exclusively while my perfectly fine 870's stayed home.
I pulled the trigger group and filed & polished & tweaked & trimmed & lubed until that sucker was up to snuff.
I just couldn't stand the idea of a weapon in my small arsenal on which I could not depend and I could not bring myself to sell one of my precious 870's.
I buy all my 870's used and I often wonder if this was not the reason the PO unloaded (pun intended) it. His loss!
Mike

 

[Oleg Volk]

What model is your Scatterguns Tech 1187? I might be interested in taking it off your hands. Please feel free to contact me off board if you'd like.

My sentiment exactly -- I found 1187P to be more reliable than even pumpguns in real use. Try operating an 870 prone!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Oleg, I've operated 870s prone. So?

 

[Gewehr98]

I kinda wondered about that statement, too, Dave!

Try operating an 870 prone!

Fired and cycled my 870 from the prone.

Did something I'd probably not try from a gasgun, too. Shells loaded with dimes, fired at watermelons. Eesh, what a sound, and what a mess!