SF Bay Area Shoot 9-27-2003

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Yup... what madkiwi said...

What fun... I might have a motorcycle to bring along to the shoot.

Oh, and did he mention we might bring my friend's Kimber Custom Eclipse?

See y'all there.... (who says I never post...lol! :D)

-labrat
 
Glad to meet all the THR member again , I have year pass so I alway there every Saturday but it get lonely sometime. Everyone is welcome to try my K-31 rifle.
 
I wont be able to make this one afterall. GF has family coming into town for a Equine Show. Not super big on the Equines but love the family. :)
 
Gad! That's TOMORROW!

How'd I miss this thread for this long??? :banghead:
Already have a trunk full of .22's - I'll see if I can make room for the M1 and a can of 30-06. If I can make it, I'll see y'all there.:cool:
 
Oooooooookay then.

Looks like I'm in. Wifey's jaw is wired shut so she can't really say 'no'; (maxillo-facial surgery last yesterday...) but she can glare at me real good. The darling mother-in-law is here to take care of her darling baby so that leaves me free to attend the gathering of the guns.

I'm in for the M1A; plenty of mil-surp .308 to pop.
Two ARs I suppose; about 1k of PMC .223 to work through.
A couple of .22s to play with.
A random assortment of handguns.

Are we still up for the BBQ? If so I can bring teriyaki chicken- but we'll need a volunteer for briquets and lighter fluid.

Can I get an 'Amen'?
 
Okay! I can go. Yes, we'd be glad to bring briquets and lighter fluid for the BBQ. How many briquets do we need? Also, are you sure you have enough food? We can bring whatever, side dishes, meat, etc.
 
I can bring enough chicken for about six people; figure a medium size bag of briquets. Any extra food or side dishes are a good thing.

I'll bring paper plates and plastic knifey/spoony things.

Oh yeah anyone up for an old pre-ban Romanian side-folder AK?

I'll lug that along too.
 
I'll be there... probably from 9:30AM - 2:30PM ... RangerGrant and I have to haul our behinds into the Central Valley by dinnertime for an IDPA night shoot.

Looking forward to it!
 
anyone going to be driving through berkeley that could be conned into giving me a ride? I'm only bringing 3 guns. My XD, my ruger mkII, and my rifle.
gimme a ring or PM me 510-551-4254. My internet connection is superspotty but I will check it later tonight.

Thanks,
atek3
 
I'll be there later in the morning. After the week I've had I'm going to sleep in a little.

Sven, this will be a good time to work the kinks out of our "flashlight" technique:D .

best, RG
 
We've got a nice steak and some potato salad for the BBQ (not to mention the briquets and lighter fluid). We're set, except for the ammo. I think I'll need directions to a good gun store with good prices on ammo up there. We're leaving early in the morning, and our local one won't be open. Remember, I don't think Wally World or K-Mart will carry .357 sig, so I need a real gun store that will.
 
I'll bring some burgers, if someone can bring hamburger buns. Do they have a separate barbeque area? There's not much room around the firing line and probably not a good idea to cook there anyway because of lead exposure and traffic.

I'll try to be there soon after opening, and if I don't spot anyone I'll set up on the 50 yd range with my 10/22. I have an OD green sunhat, but with the weather here I don't how much use it will see tomorrow.

Combat, if you can't find any 357 SIG, I've got you covered...
 
There's a seperate picnic/bbq area just opposite the check in shack; picnic tables and a bbq all ready to go.

I'm going to be in my classic flouro-blue Hawaii shootin' shirt; trust me- you can't miss it. Don't be shy.

Also I'll bring along something a little more in-yer-face to let people know where we are... can't say any more it would spoil the fun!

See you on the range.
 
We'd like a Range Report

for the stay-at-home or had-to-work types. PICs too please.:)
 
Wow! I had a great time. The three hour drive was well worth it.

Nice to meet y'all, and thanks to everyone for letting me try out their guns and ammo.
 
Indeed, pictures, pictures!

Another fine day at the range; good weather and great company. It was fun to see everyone from last time again, and nice to meet Combat-wombat, HRG, and Frohickey.

Sorry I didn't shoot HRG's G32... after shooting all day and getting food in my tummy, didn't quite feel up to it. We'll try for it next time :) Hope everyone had a safe trip home.
 
Combat-wombat, you are NOT off the hook. I need a little corroboration, here. (Nudge nudge.)

Pipsqueak hands me a box of(Not cheap!) ammo, and apologizes for not shooting it in my gun. You people are going to make me loonier than I already AM!

But bear in mind I say this with a BIG smile!


Hokay, real range report the first, some three hours in the writing:

Dangitall, my as-bragged-ultra-reliable Automag III failed. (Hey, for the first time. Well, second. It doesn't like PMC ammo either, so I can't get the range brand.) Apparently it has no tolerance for Lake City hard-primered M-2 rounds. It repeatedly misfired, requiring thumb-cocks and repeat strikes about 40% of the time. HOWEVER, as ever, the impressive muzzleblast and fireballs were a big crowd-pleaser, drawing many questions of "WhatinSamHeck's THAT thing?!", which is always a bonus. Sven liked it, when it felt like working, and we tried to get a pic of the fireballs that show in full sunlight. Results of this remain to be seen, but consensus is we didn't get it. Accuracy in general seemed to be ok, with some successful hits on various jugs at the 40-yard range. Combat-wombat broadened his horizons on the unreliable cuss, and expressed satisfaction at how it shot, although the misfire thing threw him a bit, an understandable stance in the context of "Is it hangfiring, and you want me to thumb-cock it?" I shall leave the rest to him, and he better chime in, I'm itching for more input on what people think of this gun. (Gotta stock up on ammo it LIKES for next time.)

I brought along the G-32, and Pipsqueak was generous enough to spot me a box of ammo. I was hoping he would join us to shoot it, but everyone but the Combat-wombat bugged out after lunch, so he was the only one who got to shoot it! I didn't even shoot it, as I brought that gun fer other folks to enjoy today. Next time, Pipsqueak, you won't get off so easy, as I'm itching to try that Sig 229 and find out what the hullabaloo is all about. The ammo was Speer Lawman "lead-free" sintered-copper powder training ammo, with 100-grain bullets. They fed and functioned flawlessly, and were mighty loud under the tin roof.

The Astra 600 was boring. It worked great, like it always does. I harrassed a milk jug at 40 yards with it, but didn't get to shoot it against Sven's CZ-75, as he had to leave for that IDPA thing. Just as well, as that gives me an excuse for bringing it out again next time, and accurate reliable guns are always fun. Combat-wombat tried out this gun also, and I'm curious about a compare/contrast of this gun with the .32 ACP calibered CZ-50 he also shot, as they're both blow-back actions.

The CZ-50 was choking, apparently having issues with the bullet profile of the PMC fmj's I brought along. It kept jamming them into the feedramp. Combat-wombat got a bunch of practical training on clearance drills as he fought with the cantankerous little gun. I don't get it, this ammo runs beautifully in my 1903 Colt, and the CZ has run fine on other cheap fmj reloads, so I guess it was just being ammo-sensitive, an odd occurence with ball. Despite it's misfunctioning, the Wombat decided he liked it, and now wants one. He repeatedly compared (Favorably.) it to the Walther PP series guns, an understandable link as the CZ could be said to be a staight-up rip-off of those pistols. I just wish it had worked a bit better. Accuracy when I shot it seemed adequate, but it took a few rounds for me to get dialed on it. This is about the third time it's gone to the range since I got it, so I need to shoot it some more.

It was not my day with the Steyr-Hahn 1912. I could NOT figure out where that gun wanted to shoot. It functioned wondefully, but I couldn't hit the side of a barn from the inside with it today. Hmmph. I've done better with it in the past, so I guess I just failed to make the right sacrifices this morning, or something.

The Shansei .45 Broomhandle Mauser was working better and better. It stayed on the paper, shot reasonable, hand-sized (Albeit a few inches left.)groups at about 15 yards, and didn't misfeed very much. (The misfeed thing is it's biggest issue. It's improving.) NOTE: this gun has TERRIBLE ergonomics. It's big, heavy, and impressive looking, but that Broomhandle grip is the pits. Your hand rides up the back of it until the gun starts jamming squared-off edges into your knuckles. No blood, but uncomfortable. It was surprisingly loud, and kicked smartly for such a heavy monstrosity. One needs to really hang on to the grip to keep it from migrating and getting uncomfortable, but otherwise it was it's usual easy-shooting self.

The Monster was, well, The Monster. It HATES Wolf ammo, which is all I have to feed it right now, as they require fired cases to be driven out with a brass rod. It hurt to shoot, as usual I suppose, but I'm starting to get a better handel on WHERE it shoots in relation to its goofy sights. Thanks to Frohickey for spotting me while I fired it, uh, six times. (It's tiring.) For some reason I couldn't get HIM to shoot it...;) (For that matter, no-one but me shot it this time. That's why it's The Monster: it's scary.)

Now the Springfield Armory S.A.S.S. was a different story. I brought my 1911 frame and the .308 barrel, and it performed admirably. As I shot it AFTER I shot the monster, I think I put all of 4 rounds through it, but it neatly drilled a 1-litre water jug dead center at 40 yards in one shot with iron sights, proving to myself that I hadn't completely lost my touch. Additionally, I actually conned both Frohickey AND Quarter-Bore-Gunner into shooting once each. That got me some raised eyebrows, as the .308 Hand Rifle actually kicks WORSE than The Monster, but it hurts less. What it really tries to do is conk you in the forehead with the barrel, but it hasn't succeeded yet on anybody. But it does surprise you when you actually have to SHOVE on the thing after it fires to keep it from doing so!

I also brought out the .358 barrel, but no ammo. (On purpose.) THAT beast is a thumper, and willfully attempts to sink the front sight into your forehead. I'll bring ammo next time, but THIS gun is not for the faint of wrist!

Lessee, rifles.

Surprise of the Day (For me, at any rate.) goes to my why-do-you-own-that-it's-French! MAS M-36 boltgun, which is a .308 conversion. This is a handy little nicely-balanced carbine-sized rifle with an oddly-kinked bolt handle and a BEEFY slab-sided receiver. It has a built-in reversible cruciform knitting-needle of a bayonet, an above-average mag capacity, (Meaning more than 5, but I don't know how many, exactly.) a hinged magazine floorplate, (Nice!) EXCELLENT balance, an EXCELLENT fast aperture sight, remarkably simple construction even with a 2-piece stock, (You can strip the bolt into four pieces, body, firing pin, cocking piece and mainspring, very easily with no tools, and it re-assembles just as simply.) AND NO SAFETY! :what: (Those wacky French! I guess they like to be dangerous. This is not the first French service rifle to be issued with no safety.) It has an after-market add-on trigger-block safety that Navy Arms installed when they converted it to .308 to meet import restrictions. This is one of the last bolt-action service rifles designed by a major military power, and it is highly refined. The bolt is rear-locking, but it is a massive 3/4" in diameter or so, so this gun does not suffer from the bolt-compression issues that restrict operating pressures in Lee-Enfields and shorten brass life. Bolt operation is quick and slick even though my gun has little use on it, making the agressive Parkerizing pretty rough on the contact surfaces. The oddly-kinked bolt handle, mandated by the rear lock-up, actually made for very easy operation, even though the ergonomics feel a little "funny" when you first shoulder the rifle. To me, the length of pull seemed surprisingly short, (I haven't measured it, but it seems that way compared to other rifles I have.) but that didn't interfere with operation in any way. My particular gun has about 1" of freebore, (Barrel with no rifling.) I think as a result of it's conversion. This may have been to lower initial peak pressure, as .308 runs a bit hotter than 7.5 French ammo. I've read that this can make for innacuracy, but this wasn't immediately obvious from the 10 rounds I put through this gun at the plinking range. Freebore can also make for reduced recoil, which might have accounted for why such a light carbine in a full-house cartridge seemed so reasonable to shoot. I dunno, I was just happy that the first rounds I put through this gun shot RIGHT to where it looked, it didn't clobber my shoulder, and the gun ran very nicely. Considering that I got this gun in brand-new condition for a whopping $130 out the door, I'm pretty impressed. I would qualify it as a Best Buy, it's light enough to hunt with WITHOUT sporterization, and it would make an equally good SHTF rifle as an Enfield does. Particularly if someone makes an after-market scope mount for it, although the aperture sight makes that a debateable neccessity. The bayonet set-up is slick as ice, and I would heartily reccomend to any one to buy on of these rifles. They're like a CZ-52, mucho under-rated. (It is worth noting that I was approached at the range by a gentleman wondering about windage adjustment on the gun. He said he owned one, also a conversion, that wouldn't print on paper at 50 yards. I couldn't offer him any advice, and I suppose he ran into a lousy comversion. It happens, but with an out-the-door price of under $150, you can afford to take a chance on one of these. I've mostly heard good stories about these, and there a VERY handy little rifle, and an excellent prospect for a truck gun.)

Next was the Steyr-Mannlicher M-95 straight-pull carbine. This is another $100 Special, a Budapest-built arsenal-refinished Nazi re-work of the original straight-pull rifle of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Chambered for the 8mm x 56R, I ran this gun on Nazi-stamped 1938-vintage ammo. This is 219-grain FMJ's at a respectable velocity I can't remember this second, and That Little Bastard Rifle purpled my shoulder despite making sure I was correctly braced, with the buttstock riding on a nice pad of muscle. Make no mistake, that thing walloped me. Rapped my knuckle on the back of the triggerguard, no less, just like a heavy-Magnum revolver! I knew it would, as I've heard that in lots of places, but the reality is indeed harsh. The Nazi's did a job making these little guns into viable arms shooting a full-power round, but I see why they were rear-echelon support arms, beyond the logistical neccessities. They're fine to carry around, light and handy, with good balance and a slick action, but God forbid you ever have to SHOOT the thing a lot. Mine worked fine, with easy bolt operation, decisive ejection, and shooting right to the point of aim of the relatively primitive sights. It spit the clip out of the bottom of the action with a delightful cling! It's the big, open ejection port for these clips on the bottom of these guns that's one of the reasons they were never very popular with militaries: it's a great place to fill your rifle with mud. (Silly story: Combat-wombat got on Dad's case about the clip/magazine distinction, so I got out a Mannlicher-style magazine of 8 x 56R and caught him with it. It LOOKS like a stripper clip, but it's an en-block clip like a Garand's, and the gun can't function as a repeater without it. ;) )

The .300 Savage-chambered Reminton M-81 autoloader distinguished itself admirably, functioning through the 5 rounds of 150-grain ammo I ran through it beautifully. Shot right where it's Redfield peepsight looked, perfect performance. It started to back the stock screw out, but that's my fault. Note to self: Tighten the stock screw BEFORE you re-assemble the rifle. The bolt-return spring has to be compressed otherwise before you can get the screw started straight, and that is uneccessary gruntwork that I got wrong, causing my screw to migrate under firing.

Disappointment of the Day: The Mannlicher-stocked Mexican Mauser stuck a round in the chamber hard enough to rip the rim off. I had to get a range guy to assist me in driving the case out. It only stuck once, but I was unwilling to chance another stuck case at the range, so I put the rifle up. Every OTHER type of different ammo I tested in in it chambered fine, but I still didn't want to struggle with any guns today. I need to take a closer look at this gun's extractor to determine what the issue is. Additionaly, it didn't shoot where the scope looked. Worst of all, this gun is VERY pretty, as sweet a little Mannlicher-look-alike as any you might see for a couple of thousand dollars, lacking only a butterknife bolt handle. I was hoping too show it off, and No One Even Noticed. I am mortified and embarassed. No-one has any taste anymore. (It's probably for the best, as the dang thing choked in a most untimely manner.)


Ultimate Prize of the Day for me came by way of Combat-wombat, who had this very nice 2 1/2" S&W M-19. I've never shot an M-19 before, so when he offered to let me try it out, I was thrilled. He brought along some .38 Special SWC's and I loaded up a cylinder-full, aligned the sights on a 7-yard target, and sqeezed off a VERY smooth DA shot without trying over-hard to hit the target's center.

The first shot clipped the 10-ring. Lucky shot, thinks I. Lot I knew.

Six casual DA shots later I had about a 2" group, all neatly clustered around the X. That was about the best shooting I did ALL DAY! In the context of being a bit casual about the timing and sight alignment, in addition to shooting DA, now I understand what all you people who swear by M-19's have been getting at all this time! I really need to get one of these as soon as I can! That gun amazed me! Fit, smoothness, accuracy, THAT'S what it all adds up to. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts, definitely!


On the whole, this shoot was very successful. (Well, I needed more help with shooting my stuff. I guess my guns aren't black and evil enough. :( I need to show up before noon, I suppose.) The scary-looking overcast faded away on the drive up, the sun came out and made for a perfect day, I even brought home a little sunburn. The range fee went up to $12, which was a surprise, but is still well worth it to maintain such an excellent range as LAR&GC. The BBQ went off great, ( I got fed, and all I had to offer was guns and ammo, which I couldn't get anyone to shoot. :eek: What, am I ugly?) I hope that's a regular feature of these shoots. Even if it's cold (but not raining.) A BBQ lunch would be a big hit for the social part of these get-togethers. That's a hint that we should keep this up, BTW. This is most fun.

Here's an observation for you: HighRiders are TOO generous. I owe Pipsqueak a favor and some gun time, as he handed off a box of .357 Sig without giving me a chance at equal time and ammo. (I brought that Glock up to the range specifically for other people to shoot, because I really like to share my toys. Combat-wombat was the sole beneficiary. I need to do better.) I asked if anyone had some Milsurp .308 to beg a handful of, and (I'm not sure who to credit here.) got handed 3 BOXES of new Cavim, whereupon everyone up and splits so I can't share the rifles I borrowed ammo to shoot, Sven puts all of ONE magazine of .30 Carbine through the cantankerous-acting A-m-3, tells me to finish the box, and hands me another one! I still have ALL that .308, and a whole box of .30 Carbine. If I borrow ammo, I'm supposed to RETURN the extra, not TAKE THE STUFF HOME! :eek::eek::eek:

I'm not actually complaining! My thanks to all for their extraordinary generosity! I'll be bringing that ammo back up to the range to spread around next time, plus hopefully I'll have something new/unique/different for YOU to shoot, so long as you give me the chance, and don't make me FORCE you to shoot something odd that I bring up.

Just about everyone asked about or congratulated me on the return of my stolen car, and I thank everyone for their well-wishes. I wish I had some way to spread that good luck around to share it with the wonderful folks that spend time on this board.

HighRiders are we, the standard of behavior against which to compare the world. Or not, really; it might get terribly depressing to think about. Why can't the rest of the world act like this?


Hooo-boy, now THAT'S a range report! All we need is a few more partiscipants, and some of those neato digi-pics the rest of the more computer-equipped folks are so good at.
 
Thanks to all and sorry I couldn't stay that long. Very happy to see new and familiar faces, young to old!

some_of_us.jpg

Just edited down the movies/pictures. Here are links to ZIP files with differently formatted movies:

DIVX AVI - 5.82 MB - best quality
http://www.imageseek.com/sven/2003_09_27/thr_2003_07_27_divx.zip

MPEG - 4.03 MB
http://www.imageseek.com/sven/2003_09_27/thr_2003_07_27_mpeg.zip

Production notes: I was tempted to add heavy metal music to the soundtrack (Slayer, specifically), especially for the 'blowing stuff up' part, but I held back. Maybe I'll do a re-mix. ;) Other thoughts: get a real video camera with high speed capabilities and get more videos of guns firing and 'external ballistics research experiments'. Maybe we could find a way to do a night shoot (see pictures here

Many more folks were present - we later estimated a turnout of 15 people:

QuarterBoreGunner, Calvin, Combat-Wombat (+1), labrat, madwiki, RangerGrant, pipsqueak, Hand_Rifle_Guy, MattC, Frohickey, sandy4570... Give a holler if you were there and I missed you:

What a great bunch of people! Thanks again - looking forward to the next one. -s
 
Hi All,

I too, had a great time. As those that were there know, I left at 3pm for Turlock's IDPA nightshoot (Sven, left earlier for same reason). I "survived" the night shoot, but stage 4 was ugly. How ugly you ask? lets just say I didn't miss all the targets, and leave it at that:uhoh: . I put 278 miles on my old Honda, arriving home at 1:30am.

Enjoyed meeting all of you, and am looking forward to doing this again.

best, RG
 
Thanks all had a good time shooting with you .Next shoot I hope to have more time for socializing. Sven any way to down load the video in some other format for those of us who are Zip challanged?
 
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