Shooting from the hip vs. Rentention

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AOK

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In another thread hip shooting got brought up. Since hip shooting was slightly off topic I did not want to high jack the OP thread so I wanted to get others opinions here.

So how do others feel about hip shooting versus shooting from retention? What kind of situations would shooting from the hip benefit you rather than a retention position?

My personal opinion is shooting from the hip is not going to be much faster than a retention positioning, it won't be anymore accurate or as stable with rapid fire, and you're more likely to lose you weapon. In addition, when in the retention position and there is any kind of space between you and the assailant its just a matter of quickly finishing your draw stroke which you likely have repeated thousands and thousands of times.

With all of this said there may be a very valid point on when to shoot from the hip rather than retention. However, based on my experiences and the things I have learned through classes over the past few years I just think it makes more sense to spend time working on shooting from retention rather than the hip. What am I missing?
 
I don't think you're missing anything.

Whenever I draw my pistol I draw it immediately into retention position. From there I can "punch" it toward the target into a compressed ready or ready index, if the situation calls for it.

I believe retention provides a superior index with which to more intuitively place shots at contact/near contact distance. At farther distances, but still danger close, I normally use a compressed ready index, which allows me to use my sights.
 
The pistol is, in essence, held against the side of your ribcage. Your firing hand thumb is indexed just underneath the pectoral muscle, however you press the butt of the grip into your ribcage to cant the slide away from your body to provide clearance for it to cycle. Your elbow is pointing straight back (don't "chicken wing" it). You rotate at the waist so the non-firing hand side of your upper body is forward so you can block and parry with your support hand. The firing hand side of your upper body is farther away from your adversary which provides protection against a gun grab, and it lines the muzzle up to get good hits on the adversary's lower abdomen.
 
AOK, Shawn has given a very clear definition of the standard "retention" position. Can you describe exactly what you mean by shooting "from the hip?"

Is it similar to the old crouching "point shooting" method practiced and perfected by Bill Jordan, Jelly Brice, and others back in the middle of last century?

If so, the difference I see is primarily moving the gun up higher and tucking it in tighter against the torso. If shooting "from the hip" is strictly defined as the "speed rock" out of the holster, rotated, and fired, it may be some scant faction of a second faster than the very same motion extended a few inches higher into the modern "retention" position -- but I doubt you'd get measurable differences from a hypothetical shooter equally practiced in both techniques.

Maybe a hair faster, again, but I really couldn't say with certainty. My body tells me the motion of rotating the gun forward is slightly easier as I come up to chest height, rather than doing so down at the navel level, which may give the benefit to the retention position even strictly in terms of speed.

The real benefit to the retention position, however, is better shielding of the gun from blocks, grabs, and interference.
 
Based on what others were talking about on another thread I believe they were talking about point shooting from the hip.

In regards to the speed rock, the way I was taught is it actually gets my gun and shooting hand into a retention position (not the hip), however rather than using my off hand to strike, parry, etc, it is used to support my shooting hand.

This actually brings me to another question on retention positions. May I ask why someone thinks when you are fighting at "bad breath" distances, going into rock speed rock is better compared to a retention position Mr. Dodson has explained. Unless there is a mob attacking you and you need the best retention possible, why would you give up your off hand and lose the opportunity to defend or strike?

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"Can you describe exactly what you mean by shooting "from the hip?" Is it similar to the old crouching "point shooting" method practiced and perfected by Bill Jordan, Jelly Brice, and others back in the middle of last century?

If so, the difference I see is primarily moving the gun up higher and tucking it in tighter against the torso. If shooting "from the hip" is strictly defined as the "speed rock" out of the holster, rotated, and fired, it may be some scant faction of a second faster than the very same motion extended a few inches higher into the modern "retention" position --but I doubt you'd get measurable differences from a hypothetical shooter equally practiced in both techniques. Maybe a hair faster, again, but I really couldn't say with certainty. My body tells me the motion of rotating the gun forward is slightly easier as I come up to chest height, rather than doing so down at the navel level, which may give the benefit to the retention position even strictly in terms of speed."
 
In regards to the speed rock, the way I was taught is it actually gets my gun and shooting hand into a retention position (not the hip), however rather than using my off hand to strike, parry, etc, it is used to support my shooting hand.
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You have TWO hands on the gun to "speed rock?" I haven't seen that done before. Interesting.

So, you've got the gun in tight against your torso, and have brought your support hand all the way across your chest to put it on the gun as well? That seems slow, very awkward, and like it would risk getting your support hand in front of the gun as you bring it across.

I can't answer the other part of your question because that's not how I understand it at all. I've never heard "speed rock" described as anything more than a less crouched version of what Jelly Brice is doing in the famous picture: The gun clears leather and is rotated and fired instantly, from just above the belt line. Support hand not involved in any way.
 
I was taught an unusual method by an older gentleman. I gues it is a hybrid of the two. He said to drop your elbow the moment the barrel is clear. Then basically double tap the target, step back, and enter retention. He kept telling me "the first one to hit flesh usually lives to tell the story." His other favorite was, "This ain't a matter of inches and seconds. This is a matter of fractions. Get it right or get dead."

Of course this guy was a little weird. He advised a kick to the groin, if the perpetrator was close enough, followed by jabbing the gun in their ear. I think his style was a little unorthodox for civilian force. I bet he made a great Marine though.
 
Look at the picture at the top right of this site: http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm

Bill Jordan is in what I think of as the classic Speed Rock stance.

Jelly is using a more defensive posture version which the writer there calls a "gunfighter's crouch," but again it's a "speed rock" form.
 
Yes, they actually have the support hand support the shooting hand. However, instead of support hand thumb forward the support hand thumb goes on top of the shooting hand thumb. I'm not saying this is how everyone does it, this is just how one school taught me. I have had the way you describe it introduced at another school, they just never referred to it as speed rock and they still had us bring the gun more into a retention position.

Speed or awkwardness really wasn't an issue since I carry concealed my support hand comes across the body to uncover my gun anyways. However, as you mentioned I think when you commit your hand to supporting your shooting hand in this position it is very risky to remove the hand for defense or striking.

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"You have TWO hands on the gun to "speed rock? I haven't seen that done before.

Interesting. So, you've got the gun in tight against your torso, and have brought your support hand all the way across your chest to put it on the gun as well? That seems slow, very awkward, and like it would risk getting your support hand in front of the gun as you bring it across. I can't answer the other part of your question because that's not how I understand it at all.

I've never heard "speed rock" described as anything more than a less crouched version of what Jelly Brice is doing in the famous picture: The gun clears leather and is rotated and fired instantly, from just above the belt line. Support hand not involved in any way."
 
In regards to the speed rock, the way I was taught is it actually gets my gun and shooting hand into a retention position (not the hip), however rather than using my off hand to strike, parry, etc, it is used to support my shooting hand.
Click to expand...

Never heard of the two hand thing either. I always thought of this (Chuck Taylor) as the classic Speedrock:
handgun10%5B1%5D.jpg

I don't like the Speedrock because: the gun is not at retention, I think a high elbow / pectoral index is more consistent and solid, the hips are just awful - that's a really bad position to get hit or start grappling from.

May I ask why someone thinks when you are fighting at "bad breath" distances, going into rock speed rock is better compared to a retention position Mr. Dodson has explained. Unless there is a mob attacking you and you need the best retention possible, why would you give up your off hand and lose the opportunity to defend or strike?
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I have no idea. It sounds as if you are saying that they taught you to use two hands to enhance your retention. I don't think it's going to buy you anything. I like the other hand: doing a vertical or horizontal elbow shield, flat on my chest, or doing something out in front of me - being careful to never drop low enough to cross the muzzle line.

Check out the video at 1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlNlv_bRVKs
 
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Wow, I have no idea who chuck taylor is, but he is violating every principle of fighting stances. The chest is too far back, the hips are too far forward. It is just a bad spot to be caught in if fighting in any way. That stance would get you knocked on your rear end in hand to hand. Plus it looks like it would destroy you're balance for shooting.

When I think of shooting from the hip, or speed shooting, I think of the Bill Jordan stance with a slight crouch and the support side slightly forward. Not so much the Jelly Bryce style. More like a boxer with a gun low on his hip instead of a balled fist.
 
Wow, I have no idea who chuck taylor is
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Well, we can remedy that: http://www.chucktayloramericansmallarmsacademy.com/aboutchuck.html

Consider him to be one of those few luminaries responsible for carrying the principles conceived by Bill Jordan, Rex Applegate, and others of their era -- and in many ways distilled and codified in Jeff Cooper's "Modern Technique" -- through the last part of the 20th century, and into the modern era. As someone who's been working on this stuff since before many/most of us were born, his ideas have gone through significant revision over the decades.

I doubt he's still teaching that exact method. But, hey, he's probably not wearing mesh-backed trucker caps or bell-bottoms anymore, either. ;)
 
I can tell we are having a difference of definition of terms...I wish I had been sooner into the thread to ask for the definition earlier. This is my take from a LE point of view.

The picture of Chuck Talyor that autospike posted in post #11 is the Speed Rock as I learned it. If you wear your holster more vertically, or from a duty holster, your gun actually ends up further back over the holster. That is how Bill Rogers taught it at the FBI Academy. It is very fast and can be very accurate with practice. The off-hand is used to fend off your attacker during the draw.

The picture of Bill Jordan referenced in post #9, by Sam is, IMO, the classic Point Shooting position. The gun is pointed straight out from the hip with the elbow indexing on the hip and the gun well below eye level...a true point shooting, as opposed to Point Shoulder (old FBI term) where the gun is brought to shoulder height, but you don't look at the sights :p

The Retention position (using only one hand), as described by Shawn Dodson in post #4 is an evolution of the Speed Rock. It is designed to give you better index, clear clothing and equipment and insure that the muzzle is in front of the body.

Having two hands on the gun, as described by AOK in post #10, sounds a lot like the Center Axis Relock system. Which I guess must work for some folks but IMO gives up too much for only the perception of more security.

My personal opinion, in reference to the above definitions, is that if they are close enough to touch, with your off hand, the Speed Rock make the most sense...but then I've been doing it long enough to avoid the pitfalls of it, although in honesty I have likely incorporated some of the Retention index points into my draw (the cant of the gun). If I have the time to extend the gun at all, I'll have time to bring it to High Ready (centered on chest) and likely pushing it out as I break the shot.

I learned a long time ago to Point Shoot and consider it pretty much a parlour trick, because it the same time, I could bring it up to my line of sight
 
For me also, the retention position is a normal intermediate step in the draw stroke. So if I draw as normal I'm first in the retention position and can engage a close in target at the point, or I can punch out to a flash sight picture (or indexing on the gun), as the occasion warrants.
 
MikeNice said:
Wow, I have no idea who chuck taylor is, but he is violating every principle of fighting stances. The chest is too far back, the hips are too far forward. It is just a bad spot to be caught in if fighting in any way. That stance would get you knocked on your rear end in hand to hand. Plus it looks like it would destroy you're balance for shooting.
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Actually he isn't...he is just violating every principle of fighting stances from a square range position. The whole position is based on clearing leather and getting a shot off as soon as possible. You lean back because you can't lean forward, the hips aren't forward, they are static to help clear the gun from the holster.

BTW: Jeff Cooper referred to Chuck Taylor as the "finest practical combat shooter he had ever met"...but that is a whole different story

When I think of shooting from the hip, or speed shooting, I think of the Bill Jordan stance with a slight crouch and the support side slightly forward. Not so much the Jelly Bryce style. More like a boxer with a gun low on his hip instead of a balled fist.
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Jordan wrote in his book No Second Place Winner specifically not to lean forward, crouch or turn sideways as it impeded the draw and alignment speed...as well as throwing off your index
 
I doubt he's still teaching that exact method. But, hey, he's probably not wearing mesh-backed trucker caps or bell-bottoms anymore, either.
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He certainly is not turning, when shooting the El Presidente, like they used to teach ;)
 
Well, I guess Chuck does know a little more than I do. :D

I have actually never read Bill Jordan's book. I am much more experienced with hand to hand than shooting. My shooting stance reflects that. Even with training I still bring those principles and stances in to my shooting style.

I guess there are still some problems with the way I do it. I guess I should read the book or Chuck's book and try a little harder. I've always found point shooting a little more. . . logical. It seems like the result would be the few fractions of a second that could save your life.
 
MikeNice said:
I guess there are still some problems with the way I do it. I guess I should read the book or Chuck's book and try a little harder. I've always found point shooting a little more. . . logical. It seems like the result would be the few fractions of a second that could save your life.
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Shooting is more akin to the internal power martial arts than the external, closed to the soft styles as opposed to the hard ones. You have to understand the goal as opposed to adhering to pre-conceived notions of movement.

Since shooting from the hip or retention at both point shooting it really doesn't make a lot of difference...I think retention has more to justify its practice as in the time it takes to get into a hip shooting position, you could just as easily get a sighted shot

I would never recommend point shooting practice over sighted fire practice. The ability to hit a target using point shooting is a by-product of sighted fire practice

I have actually never read Bill Jordan's book.
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It is one of the corner stones of gunfighting with a handgun, like the works of Ayoob (Stressfire), Cooper and Farnam
 
There is not a single redeeming feature of the stance that Chuck Taylor is demonstrating. I should hope that he's not teaching anything like that.

Shooting from a retention position should certainly be a part of your practice. I generally use a high retention position similar to what Shawn Dodson describes. Unlike some, I don't draw through the retention position - if I want to shoot from retention, I draw into it. Otherwise, I draw into my workstation* and press out into modified Isosceles from there.

I have no use for hip shooting.

-C

* - The workstation is the area in front of my face, about level with my chin. When I'm working on the gun, such as loading/reloading, clearing a malfunction, etc., I pull the gun back into my workspace.

I have no use for
 
Same grip, but in a retention position.

-------

"Having two hands on the gun, as described by AOK in post #10, sounds a lot like the Center Axis Relock system. Which I guess must work for some folks but IMO gives up too much for only the perception of more security."
 
Chris Rhines said:
...Shooting from a retention position should certainly be a part of your practice. I generally use a high retention position similar to what Shawn Dodson describes. Unlike some, I don't draw through the retention position - if I want to shoot from retention, I draw into it. Otherwise, I draw into my workstation*...
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Okay, but there are some advantages to the "standard" draw stroke through the retention position.

[1] Your draw stroke is always the same. You're not using one draw stroke for a close in target and another for a more distant one.

[2] It's an easy and consistent transition from retention to a two hand grip and flash sight picture.

A while ago I took a class with Louis Awerbuck. We did a drill that had us draw to retention engaging a near target and moving back diagonally off the X while continuing to engage the target and transitioning, as we continue to engage the target, to a two hand grip and flash sight picture. The skills addressed by the drill would be useful for quickly engaging a close, serious threat, creating distance and either continuing to engage that threat to assure it's neutralized or engaging a second, more distant threat -- kind of like this. (Yes, I know it was a movie, but Tom Cruise was trained by a former member of the SAS.)
 
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