two gun charlie
Member
Well there is another thing I haven't considered , a laser
thanks man will save me a whole bucket of ammo
and I can practice at home.
shooting from the hip
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Well there is another thing I haven't considered , a laser
thanks man will save me a whole bucket of ammo
and I can practice at home.In order to really get your head around this problem, I think you need to consider the proximity piece of the equation. Everybody knows 'time = distance'. So when the timeframe is greatly compressed - as we imagine here - the proximity will likely be very compressed, as well. In that context, a robust retention position begins to make a lot of sense.
There are several ways to make a small mistake and wind up shooting yourself when training retention shooting. Every time I've seen it formally instructed, a series of pretty specific safety protocols was followed. I'd strongly recommend seeking out competent professional instruction on this particular skillset.
There are several ways to make a small mistake and wind up shooting yourself when training retention shooting. Every time I've seen it formally instructed, a series of pretty specific safety protocols was followed. I'd strongly recommend seeking out competent professional instruction on this particular skillset.
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I work for a big- city PD, and during the qual, our first twelve rounds are fired from the hip. This is timed, with a mandated reload after the first six rounds, and one has to shoot fast to off all twelve rounds in time. Plenty of folks get every round in the ten-ring. With a muzzle-light auto, doing it the PD's way, with my wrist in contact with my side, I tend to always hit a bit high a few times, into the nine-ring. If I can do it Bill Jordan-style, without a range officer seeing it and correcting me, I can generally get them all in the ten-ring, if I pay attention, especially if using a 4" revolver. (My duty handgun is now a mandated .40 DA auto, with my choice being a P229.)
I could practice my PD's method more, and get them all in the ten-ring at qual time, but I mostly train to shoot it either like Bill Jordan, or SouthNarc, both of which methods are more dynamic than the rigid method my PD teaches, which does not suit me. Notably,
SouthNarc's method is NOT hip-shooting, as the position is indexed very high; it is superior for weapon retention when the opponent is close.
I could practice my PD's method more, and get them all in the ten-ring at qual time, but I mostly train to shoot it either like Bill Jordan, or SouthNarc, both of which methods are more dynamic than the rigid method my PD teaches, which does not suit me. Notably,
SouthNarc's method is NOT hip-shooting, as the position is indexed very high; it is superior for weapon retention when the opponent is close.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
IMHO, point shooting is an extremely important skill. Unfortunately, it's not one you can learn at most indoor ranges, which is where most shooters must shoot.
two gun charlie
Member
fuf
Matthew Temkin
Member
True enough.
It is very hard to point shoot while confined to a booth.
Out in the open is much better.
Old Fuff, I consider myself very lucky to have been in contact with Rex Applegate for a few years until his death.
Thru Leadbutt I was also exposed to the methods of Jelly Bryce, Bill Jordan and Col. Askins.
While not the final word by any means, those old school gun fighters knew something about actual combat.
It is very hard to point shoot while confined to a booth.
Out in the open is much better.
Old Fuff, I consider myself very lucky to have been in contact with Rex Applegate for a few years until his death.
Thru Leadbutt I was also exposed to the methods of Jelly Bryce, Bill Jordan and Col. Askins.
While not the final word by any means, those old school gun fighters knew something about actual combat.
One time while having a conversation with Col. Askins - who had plenty of experience with the subject, I ask, - "What is the most important thing to do in a gunfight?
To which he answered, "Survive."
All of the previously mentioned gentlemen did, and passed away in bed of old age. Somewhere in that is a message.
sm
member
I must be getting old...
Mentors shared much of what Old Fuff has posted. Meaning while the terms have changed/may have changed , various "methods" of getting a gun into play, for various reasons, and not always at bad breath distance were shared with me by mentors.
Oh, and doing this weak handed as well.
I dunno when exactly but it seems the term "speed rock" got to encompassing more than the "speed rock" method.
Not sure what you call what I do best, but it is waist level. Sorta sounds what Old Fuff shared about Bill Jordan.
Mentors shared much of what Old Fuff has posted. Meaning while the terms have changed/may have changed , various "methods" of getting a gun into play, for various reasons, and not always at bad breath distance were shared with me by mentors.
Oh, and doing this weak handed as well.
I dunno when exactly but it seems the term "speed rock" got to encompassing more than the "speed rock" method.
Not sure what you call what I do best, but it is waist level. Sorta sounds what Old Fuff shared about Bill Jordan.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Here is a link to a public forum which greatly explains hip shooting and the Elbow Up/Elbow down method taught by Dave James--A/K/A LeadButt:
http://kilogulf59.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=handgun&action=display&thread=3856
http://kilogulf59.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=handgun&action=display&thread=3856
mortablunt
Member
Now I get what you guys are talking about. I've tried this a few times with airsoft.
Matthew Temkin
Member
And how did it work for you?
M2 Carbine
member
I practice point shooting and shooting from the hip a fair amount.
With a little practice and the right equipment it is quite easy.
A new shooter on her third day of shooting (iron sights).
I gave the (senior) lady a laser equipped Ruger 22/45 and told her to shoot the gun out of the BG's hand (10 yards, point shooting).
With a little practice and the right equipment it is quite easy.
A new shooter on her third day of shooting (iron sights).
I gave the (senior) lady a laser equipped Ruger 22/45 and told her to shoot the gun out of the BG's hand (10 yards, point shooting).
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armsmaster270
Member
Here is me hip shooting. There is also close contact shooting where the trigger guard is against your hip when you fire.
The results without a laser. I do better with a 4" but wanted to test my snub nose.
This was from a close contact shooting
The results without a laser. I do better with a 4" but wanted to test my snub nose.
This was from a close contact shooting
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Matthew Temkin
Member
Not bad.
At what appears--in the photo-- to be about 10 feet I would feel more comfortable keeping the elbow still bent, but up around the chest level.
Or as they called it in WW2. three quarter hip.
The method you are showing, IMHO, should be best used at 3-6 feet.
Nice to see some old school wheel gunners here.
At what appears--in the photo-- to be about 10 feet I would feel more comfortable keeping the elbow still bent, but up around the chest level.
Or as they called it in WW2. three quarter hip.
The method you are showing, IMHO, should be best used at 3-6 feet.
Nice to see some old school wheel gunners here.
Loosedhorse
member
Why?
Off-topic, but I'd be worried that you sent her a strong signal that that's what she should do in a SD situation. Nice shootin' though.
M2 Carbine
member
This was just a quick introduction to the gun mounted laser. An example to show how the laser helps the shooter to hit even a small target. The lady had already put ten bullets in the BG's head.
When teaching new shooters (on my home range) I like to introduce something new most every time we shoot. One time it may be lasers, the next time the AR, the next time the AK, Red Dot sight, etc.
It's just a short introduction, where they might try out the gun, laser, etc, for a few minutes. The shooters enjoy it and it helps to keep their interest up.
Then later we will get to really teaching them how to use the different equipment.
For instance, this morning I'll be letting a fairly new shooter shoot a number of different handguns for practice and to show her what is available for her first handgun.
While most of the time will be handgun shooting, I will probably give her the opportunity (and necessary instruction) to run several magazines through a AR 15, the "evil assault rifle" she's heard so much about.
Then at a later time we will come back to the AR, etc.
.
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gamestalker
member
Hello there Two Gun Charlie, before I noticed your post I wrote a piece above about my experience with shooting from the hip. It didn't take much practice to become very efficient and consistent with the method. My oldest Son who is involved in LE, introduced my and my other Son's to this and taught us a lot about how to become really good. I started practicing this in just about every aspect of the shooting sports including upland game bird hunting, and water fowl hunting. I got to where I was almost as good of the hip as I was looking down the barrel. I took a couple of ducks at a distance that was almost too far to even attempt with a conventional shooting style. I'm a major advocate of learning this style of shooting primarily because most S.D. situations don't allow enough time to align the sights while trying to focuss on the perpetrator at the same time. And then throw in the fear factor, and your suddenly in a situation that is based more on luck, than skill beinig on your side.
As I stated in my post, I have had to deal with multiple circumstances that were deadly and I was not in control. In more than one of those circumstances I did have to discharge my firearm, and I didn't hit the perp. It was shear luck that forced the perp. to give up and retreat, and that I didn't accidentally shoot an innocent individual, my Sister who was being raped. In all of those circumstances I was just plain lucky that the bad guy was not armed with a gun, and instead only had a knife. If I had been facing down a gun who knows how things may have turned out? It is for this reason that I feel it imparative to practice, practice, practice becoming proficient in learning how to shoot instinctively. Just carrying a firearm isn't always enough and shouldn't be considered as enough. Things can even become worse if you lose control of the situation, or worse yet your weapon! This happened to me back in the late 1960's when the perpetrator struggled to get my firearm from me and finally gave up, but not until after 2 uncontrolled shots had been fired by me.
As I stated in my post, I have had to deal with multiple circumstances that were deadly and I was not in control. In more than one of those circumstances I did have to discharge my firearm, and I didn't hit the perp. It was shear luck that forced the perp. to give up and retreat, and that I didn't accidentally shoot an innocent individual, my Sister who was being raped. In all of those circumstances I was just plain lucky that the bad guy was not armed with a gun, and instead only had a knife. If I had been facing down a gun who knows how things may have turned out? It is for this reason that I feel it imparative to practice, practice, practice becoming proficient in learning how to shoot instinctively. Just carrying a firearm isn't always enough and shouldn't be considered as enough. Things can even become worse if you lose control of the situation, or worse yet your weapon! This happened to me back in the late 1960's when the perpetrator struggled to get my firearm from me and finally gave up, but not until after 2 uncontrolled shots had been fired by me.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
I totally disagree with this post.
If you were trained in a four count draw, you could have used the bumpy things on top of the slide (AKA sights) to actually hit your target.
We have had at least two LE involved "point shooting" shoots here and neither officer hit anything worth while.
If your target is with in 6 feet or so, shooting from count two will get you a better hit faster. Just like big game hunting, shooting someone repeatedly around the edges or below the diaphragm is not effective.
Paper targets are not critters either. You will not see blood from an entrance wound and you will not be able to track your hits and adjust as we all do on paper.
My experience matches that of Al Thompson.Al Thompson said:
With the proper training and practice, it's amazing how fast one can acquire a flash sight picture and hit accurately.
If you are going to use any kind of flash-sight-picture you have to have the gun at eye level so you can align the eyeball, front sight (or both sights) and the target. In a real incident (as opposed to the popular combat games) this ideal situation many not fit the circumstances.
If waist and shoulder level point shooting didn't work, the FBI would not have been able to train hundreds if not thousands of agents and other law enforcement officers to be able to shoot effectively out to 7 yards.
Of course a key word in this observation is, train.
Attaining the necessary skill is even easier today if one utilizes one of the popular laser sights that are now available.
The currently popular two-hand stances with a flash sight picture have they're place, and offer some meaningful advantages, but not always and under all circumstances.
No matter how fast one may be, it takes longer to lift a handgun from waist level (where most holsters are located) to eye level, and you may be in a position or situation where you can't do this anyway.
When survival is the principal issue, there are no negatives to increasing your options.
If waist and shoulder level point shooting didn't work, the FBI would not have been able to train hundreds if not thousands of agents and other law enforcement officers to be able to shoot effectively out to 7 yards.
Of course a key word in this observation is, train.
Attaining the necessary skill is even easier today if one utilizes one of the popular laser sights that are now available.
The currently popular two-hand stances with a flash sight picture have they're place, and offer some meaningful advantages, but not always and under all circumstances.
No matter how fast one may be, it takes longer to lift a handgun from waist level (where most holsters are located) to eye level, and you may be in a position or situation where you can't do this anyway.
When survival is the principal issue, there are no negatives to increasing your options.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Learning how to hip shoot does not negate the need to practice aimed fire, two handed shooting, flash sight index or anything else.
They all should be in the toolbox of a well rounded combat shooter.
Of course if there are some here who believe they will always have the time, distance, lighting conditions,druthers, etc, etc to always get a sight picture--no matter how course--then more power to them.
They all should be in the toolbox of a well rounded combat shooter.
Of course if there are some here who believe they will always have the time, distance, lighting conditions,druthers, etc, etc to always get a sight picture--no matter how course--then more power to them.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
For a good while I considered lasers on handguns a mere fad that would soon pass and one that had little practical utility. Then I had the chance to do a 'short session' with Clyde Caceres of Crimson Trace at the Snubby Summit in Titusville, FL in Dec. 2005. That was a real attitude adjuster for me. And since then my 642, and its two duplicates in the gun safe, have worn CT grips.
The other good thing about the laser is that, as has been pointed out, it provides a quiet, cheap and easy way to practice unsighted 'shooting' with a carry gun.
Live and learn ... that's why we train.
lpl
The other good thing about the laser is that, as has been pointed out, it provides a quiet, cheap and easy way to practice unsighted 'shooting' with a carry gun.
Live and learn ... that's why we train.
lpl
And that is the real bottom line -- plus trigger control. No matter how you index on target, jerking the trigger isn't going to help you.Matthew Temkin said:
All these techniques have their place. You want to be able to competently use whatever technique is appropriate under the circumstances.
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