Shooting Low

[Alllen Bundy]

I've been consistently shooting my P365XL low at 7 yards, but centered from left to right I need to check the sights to determine whether the sights are off or if my shooting technique needs to be corrected.

I was thinking of shooting from a rest, perhaps on bags of beans, rice, or sand. Any suggestions as to the best way to sight in a pistol?

What distances should I be using to test the sight accuracy?

Mainly because of local availability, I've been using Sig Elite Performance 115 gr 9 mm V-Crown 1,185 FPS muzzle velocity with V-Crown JHP for self defense, and shooting Winchester White box 115 gr 9 mm FMJ 1,190 FPS for target practice. Keep in mind that I'm shooting through a 3.1" barrel.

I plan to try to Sig Elite NATO 124 gr 9 mm V-Crown +P 1,198 FPS, as my local gun shop is now stocking it again.

 

[bangswitch]

How low at 7 yards? What type hold do you use, 6 o'clock, or sunrise? When you shoot at longer range, like 15 or 25 yards, where is the POI compared to your POA? Answers to these will help determine if it is the sights or you, or both.

POI will change as your range increases, the fixed sights may be optimized for a different range, usually 15 yards.
If you use a 6 o'clock hold and shoot low, try a sunrise hold, Instead of putting the top of the front sight on the bottom of the bullseye, put it in the middle of the bullseye and see if that raises the POI to where you want it.

 

[ontarget]

How low at 7 yards? What type hold do you use, 6 o'clock, or sunrise? When you shoot at longer range, like 15 or 25 yards, where is the POI compared to your POA? Answers to these will help determine if it is the sights or you, or both.

POI will change as your range increases, the fixed sights may be optimized for a different range, usually 15 yards.
If you use a 6 o'clock hold and shoot low, try a sunrise hold, Instead of putting the top of the front sight on the bottom of the bullseye, put it in the middle of the bullseye and see if that raises the POI to where you want it.

Those were my thoughts as well.
6 o'clock hold is great for paper target group shooting, but IMHO center mass is the best for fighting. That may be where the sites are regulated.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Those are my first thoughts as well.

Your pistol is likely meant to be zeroed with a heavier bullet (124grs) and at a further distance (15 yards).

I can almost guarantee you that the sights isn't zeroed for use with a 6 0'clock hold

 

[Skylerbone]

I found this chart at the range last week that might help. Was looking for a scrap target to zero an RDS. In all seriousness I concur with the above folks as well, unless we’re talking feet low rather than a few inches.


Apparently the previous owner did not wish to keep his target for trophy room display.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

As I understood that the P365 is supposed to be set up with a combat sight picture, that is how I have been aiming, with all three dots aligned horizontally and the center dot covering the target. I seem to be shooting a few inches low at 7 yards.

Assuming that my shooting technique is correct, if the sights were zeroed at 15 yards using 115 gr ammo, I should be shooting slightly high at 7 yards.

If the sights were zeroed at 15 yards with 124 gr ammo, instead of the 115 gr that I'm shooting, the 115 gr should be reducing velocity more quickly, and I should be hitting slightly low at 15 yards and closer to dead on at 7 yards. (Assuming that the muzzle velocity was the same between the 115 gr and the 124 gr bullets.)

I think that I understand the physics. What I need to know is the best way to steady my gun to take the most accurate shots, and I also need to know what is the optimum distance to zero the sights.

I plan to shoot at 7 yards, 15 yards, and 25 yards, with both 115 gr and 124 gr ammo so I can get a better handle on where the point of impact really is. Time will tell whether the sights are off or if I suck at shooting. At present my front sight is a #6 and my rear sight is a #8.

I am planning to eventually replace the Sig sights with tritium "Speed Sights". I would also prefer to set up the pistol with a center hold sight picture.

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve not shot a P365 but I have the same issue at certain distances with my M&P9. I think it was intended that the white dot on the front sight cover the desired impact point. Therefore when I use a center or 6 o’clock hold it hits low with some loads. I’ve shot it at 5,10, 15, and 25 yards and at the max distance it hits a bit high. I prefer heavier bullets like 147 grain and it seems to hit more where I want with 124 and 147 grain loads. Changing loads can change POI in any direction. I’m still messing around with it and different loads. Once I finally settle on one or two I’ll basically do a drop chart. Windage is usually centered but a couple loads are left or right. I’ve learned that some (most) of that is actually me.

 

[barnetmill]

point of impact varies according to the eyes and eye glasses of the shooter. I have always tended to shoot low. Seven yards is close range and if the impact is low at such a range then it seems for your eyes that the sights need adjustment. The front sight could be lowered with a file. But filing is a permanent solution so take care if you decide to go that route. Also for night sight tritium inserts might not be a good idea.
You want a sand bag on the bench and a chair for rest. There are other ways stabilize the pistol, but that should do. With my eyeglass prescription, the closer the irons are to my eyes, the lower the gun will shoot. Get someone that is a very good shot to fire you gun and see where it groups for someone else. I generally sight in for ranges of 50 to 100 ft with a combat pistol. Most indoor ranges will give you at least 50 ft.

 

[kidneyboy]

If your pistol left the factory zeroed at 25 yards (that used to be common) it will shoot low at closer distances.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Is the pistol supplied by the paper factory target group as usually all SIG-Sauers were? If so, at what distance was it sighted? 10 meters? 15 meters? And with what ammunition?
If the target paper factory is not present, then you need to do some tests. At 7 yards the trend of the pistol should already be very clear. If you already shoot a few inches low at 7 yards even using combat hold, then you need to replace the rear sight with a higher one or the front sight with a lower one or both.
You can try 147gr. bullets but a pistol cannot be limited to just one bullet weight to properly shoot from a distance of 7 yards.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

If your pistol left the factory zeroed at 25 yards (that used to be common) it will shoot low at closer distances.

I do believe that you have that backwards. If the pistol's sights are zeroed for a point of impact at 25 yards, the barrel needs to be pointed higher to compensate for the dropping bullet. That also means that at 7 yards the bullet's point of impact must be higher than what you are aiming at.

 

[243winxb]

I am planning to eventually replace the Sig sights

Hopefull with a fully adjustable rear sight. https://www.amazon.com/Meprolight-Tru-Dot-Sight-Adjustable-pistols/dp/B005AUF1CW

Everytime bullet velocity is different, 115 gr to 147, and adjustment will be needed.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Is the pistol supplied by the paper factory target group as usually all SIG-Sauers were?.........

No information like that came with my pistol.

If you already shoot a few inches low at 7 yards even using combat hold, then you need to replace the rear sight with a higher one or the front sight with a lower one or both.

Unless I suck at shooting and need to change my shooting technique. The rear sight is already a #8 and that is the highest that Sig has available. The front sight is a #6, so I could install a #8 which is lower.

But I need to know how accurate my sights are before I make any changes to either the sights or my shooting technique.

 

[12Bravo20]

Sig regulates their pistol sights for 10 yards using a combat sight picture. I found the information buried on their FAQ page.

My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?
All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a “combat” sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bullseye of the target. Using a six o’clock (“pumpkin on a post”) or center mass (“half’n’half”) sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2 inch groupings @ 10 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis.

https://www.sigsauer.com/faqs

I have found that they are right on at 10 yards when shooting any Sig pistol.

 

[243winxb]

I was thinking of shooting from a rest, perhaps on bags of beans, rice, or sand. Any suggestions as to the best way to sight in a pistol?

What distances should I be using to test the sight accuracy?

Solid front rest, sand bag on top. Frame of gun on bag. Both elbows on solid shooting bench. A 6" black bullseye target @ 25 yards. Hold at 6 oclock to see sights better.
Adjust sights so bullet impact is where you want it.

Holding at 6, i want impact at 6.

 

[trackskippy]

Has anyone else shot the gun and had the same or similar results as you? That will eliminate/explain the "you" part of that. If the gun shoots basically the same for everyone, then you know where to look there.

The sights are going to be as accurate as you can shoot with them. As long as you're consistent in what you do when you shoot, you should be getting a group "somewhere", and consistently. Where that is in relation to where you are aiming may be two different things.

If you consistently shoot good groups in the same spot with the same aiming point, then you want to adjust your sights as best you can to the point of impact you want. You need to decide as to how you shoot and how you want the sights to work and where the aiming point will be.

Ive owned a bunch of SIG handguns over the years and all had three dot night sights on them, factory and aftermarket. The guns all shot to the dots at most pistol distances, not the top of the blade. The guns that came from the factory with those night sights all shot to the dots as well.

As best as I remember, all of my SIG's, regardless of caliber, had either 8-8 or 8-6 sight pairs. I had one P6 that had a really oddball number combo and didn't shoot to point of aim for me, until I replaced them with a set of three dot Meprolights of the proper combo. I just assumed someone either had weird eyes or shooting technique, or maybe both, but that gun didn't shoot anywhere close to where I was aiming as it came. It did after I replaced the sights, so Im pretty sure it wasnt the gun.

 

[5-SHOTS]

No information like that came with my pistol.



Unless I suck at shooting and need to change my shooting technique. The rear sight is already a #8 and that is the highest that Sig has available. The front sight is a #6, so I could install a #8 which is lower.

But I need to know how accurate my sights are before I make any changes to either the sights or my shooting technique.

Then it would be better, as has already been suggested by some users, to let some good shooter try the pistol.

 

[barnetmill]

I do believe that you have that backwards. If the pistol's sights are zeroed for a point of impact at 25 yards, the barrel needs to be pointed higher to compensate for the dropping bullet. That also means that at 7 yards the bullet's point of impact must be higher than what you are aiming at.

Iron sights are almost always above the bore. At point blank range of say one foot for a gun sighted in at 7 yards, The bullet will hit lower than it will at 7 yards.
Below for an AR-15. The bullet starts out low, it crosses the line of sight at 50 m and goes above it and them meets it again at 200 m when it is zero for 50.200 meter zeros.

 

[Frankl03]

If you are putting any downward force on the trigger as you pull the trigger it will pull your shots down. A good dry fire exercise is to stand in front of target. Cock the unloaded pistol and focus on front sight as you pull the trigger. You want to get to the place on your dry firing that the front sight does not move as you pull the trigger.

Hope that helps!

 

[barnetmill]

If you are putting any downward force on the trigger as you pull the trigger it will pull your shots down. A good dry fire exercise is to stand in front of target. Cock the unloaded pistol and focus on front sight as you pull the trigger. You want to get to the place on your dry firing that the front sight does not move as you pull the trigger.

Hope that helps!

There is an old trick putting pencil in the gun barrel seeing where the firing pin pushs it out relative to sighting picture.
https://www.bevfitchett.us/combat-training-with-pistols/pencil-triangulation-exercise.html
They claim in error that it will not work in 'It will not work with an M9 pistol;'

'1) The firer faces the target and takes up a good shooting position. This position is close enough to the miniature bull's-eye so when the pencil is inserted into the barrel, with the firer's arm extended and the sights aimed at the miniature bull's-eye, the point of the pencil is within 1 inch of the target. The bull's-eye sheet should be affixed to a target, or any type support, and should be shoulder-high to the firer.

See the link for the rest of the story.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

View attachment 1082683

I was envisioning the 200m mark as being my 15 yard POA/POI mark, and the 100m mark as being my 7 yard mark. But it appears that until the bullet velocity slows down considerably, if I zeroed the sights at 15 yards, and aimed for 7 yards, the POI would be low up until 15 yards when it would finally match the POA.

If your pistol left the factory zeroed at 25 yards (that used to be common) it will shoot low at closer distances.

You were correct and I was wrong.

Calculating this would be a great exercise for a physics class.

If you are putting any downward force on the trigger as you pull the trigger it will pull your shots down.

I have the curved trigger so I could easily be pulling downward. I suppose that this is the argument for using a flat trigger, as it would be more difficult to put downward movement onto a flat trigger.

Solid front rest, sand bag on top. Frame of gun on bag. Both elbows on solid shooting bench......

I hadn't thought about elbows on the bench to improve the stability.

I suppose there is the argument that an adjustable sight could get knocked out of whack in self defense situation and a fixed sight less so. But I'm guessing that non-adjustable sights are used mostly because of lower manufacturing cost.

Has anyone else shot the gun and had the same or similar results as you?

I'm the only one that has shot this pistol. My groupings are similar so my shooting technique, for better or worse, is consistent.

As best as I remember, all of my SIG's, regardless of caliber, had either 8-8 or 8-6 sight pairs.

Sig regulates their pistol sights for 10 yards using a combat sight picture.

If my POA/POI is actually accurate at 10 yds, I will probably need to use an 8-8 pair to achieve a center hold sight picture.

I greatly appreciate the help!!!

 

[bangswitch]

I found this chart at the range last week that might help. Was looking for a scrap target to zero an RDS. In all seriousness I concur with the above folks as well, unless we’re talking feet low rather than a few inches.


Apparently the previous owner did not wish to keep his target for trophy room display.
View attachment 1082663

Hits outside the circle should have *** ??? printed there

 

[kidneyboy]

You were correct and I was wrong.

No worries. You were thinking correct and translating it backwards.

 

[PWC]

If you are shooting a handgun, two handed, the off hand thumb becomes your pointer.

Extend the off arm and use your pointy finger to point at a distant object....feels normal. Now, close your off hand loosley and extend your arm and point your THUMB at the distant object. It will cause your arm to roll outward and you can feel the elbow "lock".

Now with an unloaded handgun, point it one handed normally, then wrap your off hand around the other grip but with the thumb pointing at the target along side the gun. I think you'll find the gun better supported, at least I do.

 

[CNobbe]

As I understood that the P365 is supposed to be set up with a combat sight picture, that is how I have been aiming, with all three dots aligned horizontally and the center dot covering the target. I seem to be shooting a few inches low at 7 yards.

Try making a triangle with the dots, but only focus on the front. The front sight on a Sig pistol is usually taller than the rear, so lining up the dots will cause you to point the muzzle down a bit.

Or, throw a red dot on it and the sights won't even matter.