Should a American Citizen, With No Legal Disqualifications, Be Able to Board a Bus,Train, Subway or Plane with a Firearm?
- Thread starter IJ1981
- Start date
- Status
Feel free to fly with less safety protocols. I'll pass. Flying is not to be taken lightly. Behavior up there has to be severely restricted to make sure risk is mitigated as close to zero as possible. We could have an airline for folks that think risk analysis is for sissies,
Last edited:
I've shot and qualified at military ranges and my Dad at LE ranges for decades - over 90% qualification. Are they the best shooters and or firearms experts? No, not most. But LE and Mil teach to get people to qualify. Not be experts or marksmen. You should know something about what you are talking about and you don't.
Last edited:
Miami_JBT
Member
I'm former Mil and LE. I do know what I'm talking about.
A 92G or 68C isn't someone Uncle Sam spends time and money getting to handle a service rifle or pistol. They barely adequately qual once in a 24 monyh period and go back to cooking or go back to MEDCOM.
With LE, the FL qual course is 40 rounds at between 1 to 15 yards with one mandatory reload. It is ridiculously easy and people still fail it!
Again, prior service is not a prerequisite for firearms handling. I know plenty of private citizens who never wore the badge or served in the armed forces that are far better at handling firearms than those trained by Uncle Sam.
Your argument is that only Military or LE should handle firearms in certain environments like aircraft or crowded spaces because of their "training." I say you're mistaken on that. Here's why:
Former librarian, 73, accidentally killed when Florida police officer uses live ammo in community exercise
PUNTA GORDA, Fla. - A police "shoot/don't shoot" demonstration in Florida went shockingly awry when an officer shot and killed a 73-year-old former librarian with what police said was real ammunition…
www.jacksonville.com
Surveillance video shows deadly shooting of special police officer during training session in DC
New video obtained by FOX 5 shows the moment a retired-D.C. Lieutenant shot and killed 25-year-old Maurica Manyan during a police training at Anacostia Library last year.
Don’t rush to judge the Navy’s recent firearm mishap, the Corps has had 54 negligent discharges since 2013
The Corps' negligent discharges have cost more than 1,700 work days and millions of dollars.
www.marinecorpstimes.com
Pittsburgh police officer on paid leave after accidental discharge, positive drug test
11 Investigates has learned that a Pittsburgh police officer who worked at Zone 3 in Allentown could lose his job after an accidental discharge in a police cruiser.
Sailor accidentally shot in the leg at Naval Station Norfolk
A sailor is in stable condition after suffering an “accidental discharge to the right leg” from a military firearm on Tuesday morning at Naval Station Norfolk, authorities say.
www.navytimes.com
Dallas police employee shot in arm after accidental discharge in property room
The employee was processing evidence when the shooting occurred. They were hospitalized with injuries that weren’t considered life threatening, police said.
www.dallasnews.com
Another Texas soldier on border dies in accidental shooting
He's the sixth soldier linked to the mission to die since October.
www.armytimes.com
Police: ‘Accidental discharge’ of officer’s gun prompted huge emergency response at St. John’s Prep
Local and state police descended upon the school and immediately ordered students and staff to shelter in place.
Cop accidentally fired gun near bystanders during training in downtown Burlington - VTDigger
Staff from Outdoor Gear Exchange were close by when a police officer from Pennsylvania accidentally fired a live round from his weapon during a SWAT training at the former L.L. Bean building on Cherry Street.
vtdigger.org
La Vergne police officer placed on leave after weapon discharges; TBI investigating
An investigation is underway surrounding an accidental weapon discharge made by a La Vergne police officer.
www.wkrn.com
Minnesota police said Daunte Wright's death was the result of an 'accidental discharge.' This happens far more often than you might think.
The officer who shot Daunte Wright meant to deploy her Taser at him, not her gun, police said. Accidental shootings and deaths like these are not new.
www.businessinsider.com
Video shows Danvers police officer accidentally firing gun in St. John's Prep shooting scare
New video released Wednesday shows a Danvers police officer accidentally firing a gun while responding to a hoax shooting scare at St. John's Prep on May 22.
www.cbsnews.com
Marine Harrier mechanic killed while cleaning his weapon
The Corps has had nearly 54 negligent discharges over the last five years.
www.marinecorpstimes.com
Plenty of cops and service members have negligent discharges and sometimes, they kill themselves or others. But they're "trained."
And the matter of the fact is this.
Inalienable rights that are enumerated in the Constitution are not trumped by feelings or by someone's profession.
The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The people have the right to carry arms.
Simple as that. Even if I didn't like it, it is their right to do so. Dame goes for their other rights like freedom of speech.
Again, if a private company wants to bar someone from carrying on their plane or bus. That's their prerogative. American Airlines and Greyhound can do that. But the government should have no say in the matter.
Last edited:
Miami_JBT
Member
I fly with those who went through FFDO all the time and guess what, some still play with the bang switch or worse!
Former Delta pilot indicted for allegedly threatening co-pilot with gun during flight
A former Delta Airlines pilot has been indicted for allegedly threatening his co-pilot with a firearm on an August 2022 flight. He will appear in court on Nov. 16.
Trigger-Happy Pilot? Gun Discharged Midflight
DeepSouth
Random Guy
As I understand it, that’s not possible because laws have been passed to remove that freedom.
Puts the op’s question in perspective a bit I suppose. If one supports “an airline for folks that think risk analysis is for sissies” then they they are in favor of repealing the current laws/regulations. Which I suppose is less gun related than THR is designed to be, nevertheless, it is thought provoking, for me anyway.
It doesn't mean anything? It means they know one specific rifle or possibly a handful of rifles and handguns. Probably none of them single action, because their management knows they can't be trusted with it.
So, yeah, it means something. But hand a compact 9mm single action to a cop, veteran, and a regular citizen, they're all just as likely to do scary things. I think there's more chance of the regular citizen asking for help with something they don't understand.
I also agree with Military or LE experience =/= good shooter / safe firearms handling. I was infantry in the Marine Corps, and we were adamant about safety. There was still always those guys that screwed it up. We usually could farm them out to push paper in an S shop somewhere.
Same with LE. I'm a firearms instructor at my agency, and I will say that we generally have some decent shooters who handle their weapons professionally. There are a few, though, that I would be more apt to trust amstranger from this forum than them.
Only thing else I will say is that it's likely there's a greater percentage of former military or LE who are proficient shooters and handle weapons professionally than there is in the general populace. I could say the same thing about members of this forum.
FWIW, in the poll I voted undecided. For all ground transportation I do not believe there should be carry restrictions unless imposed by the private owner of said transportation. It should not be government regulated. As for flying... I'll not address that. I will say that there are plenty of instances of "law abiding citizens" (as in no prior arrests or convictions) doing terrible things. The younger Tsarnaev brother, for one quick example. The San Bernardino terror attack was spearheaded by an American citizen with terror ties who had never been arrested. He could legally own and carry firearms.
Same with LE. I'm a firearms instructor at my agency, and I will say that we generally have some decent shooters who handle their weapons professionally. There are a few, though, that I would be more apt to trust amstranger from this forum than them.
Only thing else I will say is that it's likely there's a greater percentage of former military or LE who are proficient shooters and handle weapons professionally than there is in the general populace. I could say the same thing about members of this forum.
FWIW, in the poll I voted undecided. For all ground transportation I do not believe there should be carry restrictions unless imposed by the private owner of said transportation. It should not be government regulated. As for flying... I'll not address that. I will say that there are plenty of instances of "law abiding citizens" (as in no prior arrests or convictions) doing terrible things. The younger Tsarnaev brother, for one quick example. The San Bernardino terror attack was spearheaded by an American citizen with terror ties who had never been arrested. He could legally own and carry firearms.
Last edited:
doubleh
Member
I voted yes because of the wording change. I bet everyone on the three planes involved in 9-11 wished there was someone armed onboard.
We don't prohibit pipe dream polls expressly, but further disrespectful comments may force this one into early retirement.
I think you have my thoughts on these subjects with quite a bit of assumption on your part.I'm former Mil and LE. I do know what I'm talking about.
A 92G or 68C isn't someone Uncle Sam spends time and money getting to handle a service rifle or pistol. They barely adequately qual once in a 24 monyh period and go back to cooking or go back to MEDCOM.
With LE, the FL qual course is 40 rounds at between 1 to 15 yards with one mandatory reload. It is ridiculously easy and people still fail it!
Again, prior service is not a prerequisite for firearms handling. I know plenty of private citizens who never wore the badge or served in the armed forces that are far better at handling firearms than those trained by Uncle Sam.
Your argument is that only Military or LE should handle firearms in certain environments like aircraft or crowded spaces because of their "training." I say you're mistaken on that. Here's why:
Former librarian, 73, accidentally killed when Florida police officer uses live ammo in community exercise
PUNTA GORDA, Fla. - A police "shoot/don't shoot" demonstration in Florida went shockingly awry when an officer shot and killed a 73-year-old former librarian with what police said was real ammunition…www.jacksonville.com
Surveillance video shows deadly shooting of special police officer during training session in DC
New video obtained by FOX 5 shows the moment a retired-D.C. Lieutenant shot and killed 25-year-old Maurica Manyan during a police training at Anacostia Library last year.www.fox5dc.com
Don’t rush to judge the Navy’s recent firearm mishap, the Corps has had 54 negligent discharges since 2013
The Corps' negligent discharges have cost more than 1,700 work days and millions of dollars.
Pittsburgh police officer on paid leave after accidental discharge, positive drug test
11 Investigates has learned that a Pittsburgh police officer who worked at Zone 3 in Allentown could lose his job after an accidental discharge in a police cruiser.www.wpxi.com
Sailor accidentally shot in the leg at Naval Station Norfolk
A sailor is in stable condition after suffering an “accidental discharge to the right leg” from a military firearm on Tuesday morning at Naval Station Norfolk, authorities say.
Dallas police employee shot in arm after accidental discharge in property room
The employee was processing evidence when the shooting occurred. They were hospitalized with injuries that weren’t considered life threatening, police said.www.dallasnews.com
Another Texas soldier on border dies in accidental shooting
He's the sixth soldier linked to the mission to die since October.
Police: ‘Accidental discharge’ of officer’s gun prompted huge emergency response at St. John’s Prep
Local and state police descended upon the school and immediately ordered students and staff to shelter in place.www.boston25news.com
Cop accidentally fired gun near bystanders during training in downtown Burlington - VTDigger
Staff from Outdoor Gear Exchange were close by when a police officer from Pennsylvania accidentally fired a live round from his weapon during a SWAT training at the former L.L. Bean building on Cherry Street.
La Vergne police officer placed on leave after weapon discharges; TBI investigating
An investigation is underway surrounding an accidental weapon discharge made by a La Vergne police officer.www.wkrn.com
Minnesota police said Daunte Wright's death was the result of an 'accidental discharge.' This happens far more often than you might think.
The officer who shot Daunte Wright meant to deploy her Taser at him, not her gun, police said. Accidental shootings and deaths like these are not new.
Video shows Danvers police officer accidentally firing gun in St. John's Prep shooting scare
New video released Wednesday shows a Danvers police officer accidentally firing a gun while responding to a hoax shooting scare at St. John's Prep on May 22.
Marine Harrier mechanic killed while cleaning his weapon
The Corps has had nearly 54 negligent discharges over the last five years.
Plenty of cops and service members have negligent discharges and sometimes, they kill themselves or others. But they're "trained."
And the matter of the fact is this.
Inalienable rights that are enumerated in the Constitution are not trumped by feelings or by someone's profession.
The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The people have the right to carry arms.
Simple as that. Even if I didn't like it, it is their right to do so. Dame goes for their other rights like freedom of speech.
Again, if a private company wants to bar someone from carrying on their plane or bus. That's their prerogative. American Airlines and Greyhound can do that. But the government should have no say in the matter.
Flying - no firearms applies to everyone except those performing official duties. Again, a simple risk analysis and risk mitigation plan dictates why it is important. Has nothing to do with 2A rights.
LE and mil - I said the majority are able to be qualified for their purposes and doesn't make them experts or totally trustworthy with firearms. Sheriff's departments are notorious for poor training and fat out of shape guys, but again, the majority of folks qualify and have the basics.
Then you have not out much though into either the tactics or the risks.
Miami_JBT
Member
Inalienable civil rights trump "tactics or the risks." People have the right to carry, simple as that. I live in a state of 22 million people where an estimated 7 to 10 million of them own and carry firearms. I'm not in any great worry or fear. I'd rather live in a free society with certain inherent risks than in a controlled society with no freedom and no safety.
The greatest dangers I faced with people handling firearms were from some of my fellow law enforcement officers. They'd muzzle sweep me, etc.... the general public, not so much.
The Night Rider
Member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2022
- Messages
- 2,133
The very last thing I want to do in the world is poke this Tar Baby but I am going to throw this out, I think the rights of the property owner to permit or prohibit firearms on their plane, train, bus, Uber, or Subway should be absolute.
Miami_JBT
Member
I agree.... if American Airlines, Brightline, or Greyhound wants to create a policy that does such. That's their prerogative as a private business. Government should have no say. If it is public funded transportation like the county bus line. No bans should exist.
Except on or in property owned by those who do not allow it. That is fundamental.
Miami_JBT
Member
If you look at my first post in this thread, I've said private businesses can do what they want. The government cannot.
My very first post on the first page in this thread included the following:
"Yes, folks should be able to on public transportation without an issue. It is public property and a public service. Now, regarding private transportation, that's private property and up to the property owner.
Meaning, if American Airlines wants to prevent you from carrying on their planes or Greyhound wants to prevent you from carrying on their buses. They should be able to make that choice. It should not be the government. But publicly owned transportation like Amtrak, or the County Bus Service. You should be able to carry."
Armorer 101
Member
The Constitution is not just one article, but many. The rights of property owners is also to be considered. The property owner has a right to give or deny access. So a blanket statement that does or may allow a violation of Constitutional property rights, is a non starter.
We run into this with some frequency in FL, due to the CWP. You can carry, but may not, on their property, depending on the property owner, regardless of whether it is a non restricted area, or not, restricted like a court house or a bar for example. If the owner says no access, you may not violate their rights, simply to satisfy your wish to carry. You do not have to go on their property, but their property is always their property.
I was one of the folks that was consulted about the drafting of the state wide CWP statute changes in FL. Going from a county by county Pistol Toting Bond to a state wide, mandatory acceptance, must issue, concealed weapons permit was a very large step forward. Five leaders in the state's shooting sports were asked to draft a basic statute outline for the Legislature to use to construct the law itself.
The entire Constitution must be considered, you must not violate one right to protect another. The base law that was constructed has stood the tests of time and several trips to the Supreme Court. This was and is a state statute constructed by shooters, for shooters.
We run into this with some frequency in FL, due to the CWP. You can carry, but may not, on their property, depending on the property owner, regardless of whether it is a non restricted area, or not, restricted like a court house or a bar for example. If the owner says no access, you may not violate their rights, simply to satisfy your wish to carry. You do not have to go on their property, but their property is always their property.
I was one of the folks that was consulted about the drafting of the state wide CWP statute changes in FL. Going from a county by county Pistol Toting Bond to a state wide, mandatory acceptance, must issue, concealed weapons permit was a very large step forward. Five leaders in the state's shooting sports were asked to draft a basic statute outline for the Legislature to use to construct the law itself.
The entire Constitution must be considered, you must not violate one right to protect another. The base law that was constructed has stood the tests of time and several trips to the Supreme Court. This was and is a state statute constructed by shooters, for shooters.
Let me stir it up some: It happened because that gun had the 'perfect' never fail Glock idea of 'glockizing that trigger with it's safety..............!
Miami_JBT
Member
FFDOs are issued HK USP40 Compact LEM.
The policy is that the gun is locked in the holster when transporting it. When they're in the cockpit, the lock is removed and they wear it.
OP
OP
IJ1981
Member
A fantastic discussion for THR! Thank you all so much. My prayer has been positively answered.
Bill_in_TR
Member
Well I had to vote no because of the inclusion of planes. And it isn't because of some decompression concern. But an AD or ND on a plane could impact a control, a system or a person essential to flight. And there ain't no pulling over to wait for help.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Cool, and now the critical question since this again seems to just be largely resorting to a 2A issue, what is the significance of public transportation to the query? Is there a place with Constitutional carry that doesn't allow carry on busses and trains by law.
In other words, what is the actual issue you wish to be discussing? Do they not allow that where you are?
OP
OP
IJ1981
Member
A profound question, Double Naught. We need deep thinkers to inveigle into the discussion. Einstein, Fermi and Teller have passed away.. Hopefully, new brilliant thinkers can succeed them.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
