Contacted a Mall about CCW policy

[K3]

Why complain? These owners are just exercising their rights. Do you people actually think you should be able to trounce their rights so you can have your own way? If so don't forget what goes around comes around.
If you see a no firearm sign then turn around and go someplace else. No need in whinning and complaining. Those people have made their decision.

Does that negate a man's 'right' to act to get the policy changed via letter or phone call? If people just shrug their shoulders and say 'Oh well, I'll go elsewhere' and do nothing else, than it will appear that disallowing carry should be the rule rather than the exception.

Just as a mall owner has the 'right' to forbid concealed carry, a person has the 'right' to complain, join with others to try and get the policy changed, and to take his business elsewhere.

What's the gain in doing and saying nothing?

 

[Green Lantern]

Just as a mall owner has the 'right' to forbid concealed carry, a person has the 'right' to complain, join with others to try and get the policy changed, and to take his business elsewhere.

What's the gain in doing and saying nothing?

+1!

Being that the majority seem far too dense to either figure it out, or "sheeple-fied" to change the policy of their own accord, the only "gain" will be more people doing 'feel-good solutions' to problems like mall shooters - and more and more people winding up dead because of it.

No need in whinning and complaining. Those people have made their decision.

The owners may have made their decision, but they obviously did it without common sense and all the facts. Probably read that .PDF file that the Bradys put out when CCW started to take off. AFAIK, it's still on their website somewhere. Why don't you go read it and see if you still feel the same way about not uttering a peep to counter the anti-gun bias found within.

 

[tallpaul]

Relax, I know the rules.

Just making a statement, I would NEVER advise someone to do something Illegal.

Be careful making such claims.

this is the HIGHROAD.

You beat me to it... You said nothing illegal... the whistle blower wanna be needs to follow the rules close himself!

 

[mekender]

NC law is rather ambigious too,

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-415.11.html

where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.

it does not say that it has to be posted at every entrance... and the malls i was at this weekend, it was not a specific sign, but a list of 16 or so rules, #14 being the one prohibiting "weapons of any kind" also, the sign was not present at the Macys entrance, nor the door between macys and the mall, but was present at the public mall entrance...

the firearms law info .pdf says:

http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

any premises, except state owned rest areas or stops along the highways, where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice, or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.11(c) (the statute quoted above)

Those individuals exempted from the prohibitions of carrying concealed weapons as set forth in Paragraph III. A. of this publication, are not prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon or handgun on property wherein a notice is posted prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun, unless otherwise prohibited by statute.

now, paragraph III A says:

North Carolina law strictly controls the ability of individuals to carry weapons concealed. Except under the limited concealed handgun permit provisions of state law, described in Sections III. B and III. C of this publication

paragraph III B. is the law enforcement safety act governing off duty LEOs

paragraph II C. is the CCH permit law... :

C. Concealed Handgun Permit
As of December 1, 1995, certain residents of North Carolina may be eligible to obtain a permit which would allow them to carry a concealed handgun under certain conditions.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.11 No other weapons may be carried concealed pursuant to such permit.

to me, this reads that LEO's and CCH holders are exempt from places with posted signs

 

[OpFlash]

It would be interesting to hear the rationale behind these policies.

It's the insurance companies. If a CCW shoots someone in their business (no matter how unlikely that may be) they believe they can be sued for liability because they didn't prohibit CCW. If a nut job murders 10 people they believe they can't be sued because there's no way they could have prevented that anyway. Put bluntly, they are quite willing to sacrifice the safety of their customers to reduce their liability in case of a much less likely event.

I wish it was possible to sue them for preventing people from defending themselves, but at this point it doesn't appear that that is the case.

 

[ashtxsniper]

I have never seen a mall here in Texas that had signs posted saying you couldnt carry a gun. I would carry in them regardless of what there "policy" is. Thank God I start the LE academy in January.

 

[Tom488]

If you see a no firearm sign then turn around and go someplace else. No need in whinning and complaining. Those people have made their decision.

And, of course, you'd have the same reaction to a sign that said, "No Blacks", or "No Jews", or "No Republicans"? It's not discrimination, it's just a decision they've made, no?

 

[K3]

I have never seen a mall here in Texas that had signs posted saying you couldnt carry a gun. I would carry in them regardless of what there "policy" is. Thank God I start the LE academy in January.

Why is that?

It wouldn't be because there is a separate standard, now would it?

 

[ashtxsniper]

I will be able to carry most anywhere exposed.

 

[bearmgc]

Except for Post Offices and County/Federal buildings, I DO NOT go anywhere that post a no CCW policy. I don't need to be there or give them my business.
No exceptions.

 

[BigO01]

Complaining won't do us much good with the attitude of some of the sheep .

I was watching a news piece after the Omaha incident and they interviewed a bubble headded blonde that said she doesn't want to go shopping at the mall and even see Armed guards despite the fact they could be on duty police officers .

It seems some sheep would rather live completely in ignorant bliss of the real world in which there are bad people rather than even see a gun in the hands of the good guys .

 

[ashtxsniper]

As a LEO I can carry in post offices and county federal buildings.

 

[K3]

I will be able to carry most anywhere exposed.

So, the answer is yes, a separate standard.


I'm thinking you can't open carry in Texas if you are off duty. Maybe I'm wrong on that...

 

[bearmgc]

Fellows, its time to sell the mini van, get a CCW and, don't frequent places that do not allow CCW. Time to stand up and be counted. If businesses lose money because people won't go there, they may get a clue.

 

[HammerG26]

I agree with all of you who said to take your business elsewhere. I went to buy my wife some jewelry at Jarrod's here in Georgia - when I got there, I saw it was posted with a no guns sign (not sure if that has any weight here in Georgia) - I simply left and went to Shane's. I bought my wife what I was going to buy her (spent a some good money), then sent the manager of Jarrod's and regional manager of Jarrod's a picture of what I purchased, along with receipt, and told them the sale could have been theirs, if not for the sign. I never got a response. I will not shop there, and I tell anyone I know not to shop there. They have the right to ask me not to carry in their store, just as I have a right to carry. My rights are not more important than theirs.
As for advocating carrying illegally - tough one. However, "concealed means concealed" is simply a statement... how one interprets it is not my concern.

Be safe this season and Merry Christmas.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Malls Don't Care?

The malls do not care if you shop there or not. The Simon malls make their money renting space.

No, you're right, they don't care whether YOU, the individual (person, individual, each, qty: 1) shop there. Yes, they make their money renting space.

However.

They are able to rent space at a premium price per square foot to stores, because they can boast of the guaranteed foot traffic.

The Boulevard Mall in Las Vegas has been through some trying times in the last few years, including at least two changes of ownership. Why? They couldn't protect the public, and there had been several gang shoot-outs in the mall over a two-year period. And why was that? Because they encouraged a demographic change with an emphasis on younger shoppers (13-25), which succeeded in bringing in younger shoppers, with the unintended consequence of driving away older shoppers and families. Attendance fell off dramatically.

I had this conversation with business owners Daro and Ruth, who ran the African Import store in the cross-connecting corridor. They had 18 months, 2 weeks, and 4 days left on their lease. To the day. And every time I visited them over the next 18 months, they recited the number of months, weeks, and days left on their contract.

They were gone a matter of days after their lease was up.

The mall that didn't care was losing businesses hand over fist. They were losing big names (including Disney) because they had screwed up the demographic for what they had believed would be a larger profit from sales to young, hip, happening kids. What they got was shoot-outs, loss of family business, and loss of big names that depended on families.

I don't know if they've recovered from that debacle, but I learned that, even if the mall ownership itself doesn't care who shops there, the actual stores and businesses do.

So, if you're thinking about writing a letter to the mall management/ownership, you might also consider copying that same letter to some of your favorite stores in that same mall.

They may not listen to YOU, but if one of their cash cows comes to them, saying, "hey, we've received dozens of letters complaining about your policies, and we're losing business," they will listen to THAT.

Make sure you complain where it will do the most good.

 

[Mannlicher]

frankly. other than looking for publicity, grandstanding or something, I can't for a moment understand why you would write that letter in the first place.

 

[Green Lantern]

frankly. other than looking for publicity, grandstanding or something, I can't for a moment understand why you would write that letter in the first place.

As I said in another thread, even if they DID take the signs down, I would not shop at my local mall out of bad history (mostly their past treatment of CCWers)...

HOWEVER....

It's NOT just a "talking point" when I say that "no guns" signs SHOULD read "criminals, defenseless victims inside!"

It's a stretch, but how would YOU feel if the next nutjob opened up at YOUR local, posted mall? Even if your letter would not have been enough to convince them to take the signs down - even if they HAD, but there were no CCWers on hand to stop the killer - you would have known that you had at least TRIED.

And, you know, sometimes it DOES convince them that those signs are a bad idea. I'VE convinced a store to "de-post" myself (probably with a bit of help, but still...)

I don't like it, but I can understand a "defeatist" attitude toward this....but I CAN'T understand your defeatist attitude as well as looking down on people that do try to get these signs removed...

 

[The Annoyed Man]

I have never seen a mall here in Texas that had signs posted saying you couldnt carry a gun. I would carry in them regardless of what there "policy" is. Thank God I start the LE academy in January.

Perhaps you weren't looking for them? The Grapevine Mills mall has, according to my CHL instructor, 30.06 signs posted at the entrances. So, you would be wrong about that one at least; and unless you have visited every single mall in Texas, you might be wrong about others. And, if you would carry anyway, regardless of the 30.06 signs being posted, then you would be in violation of the law, and subject to a Class A misdemeanor prosecution, with possible jail time. Kiss your LEO career goodbye.

Furthermore, I would personally prefer that CHL carriers in Texas be law abiding citizens. If you are going to deliberately break the law, then perhaps you should not be licensed to carry at all. With the CHL comes great responsibility, and an expected higher standard of behavior.

That's just my 2¢.

 

[security6]

frankly. other than looking for publicity, grandstanding or something, I can't for a moment understand why you would write that letter in the first place.

Mannlicher,

Try re-reading or reading post #47 on this thread. I think you may then better understand what these sort of letters hope to accomplish.

 

[Nebor]

I have never seen a mall here in Texas that had signs posted saying you couldnt carry a gun. I would carry in them regardless of what there "policy" is. Thank God I start the LE academy in January.

Valley View mall has a few. They aren't regulation 30.06 signs because the lettering is too small.

Grapevine Mills has a few regulation signs. I rarely go in the mall, just the theater, and it's not posted. There are definitely some mall entrances that aren't posted though.

And I'll join in with Ash and say I don't give a damn if they are posted. You can go on about being a law-abiding citizen if you want, but if the laws said you were required to submit to a daily search by police officers, they wouldn't be right. You have a duty to disobey unjust laws while trying to get them changed. Fortunately our Texas laws will be changing during the next leg. session. I've spoken with all of my reps and they all assure me they'll be backing carry EVERYWHERE not covered by federal law.

 

[ndh87]

Along with your right to bear arms it is also your right to determine where you shop,

That sounds alot like "dont like it? dont shop here."

 

[The Annoyed Man]

Grapevine Mills has a few regulation signs. I rarely go in the mall, just the theater, and it's not posted. There are definitely some mall entrances that aren't posted though.

I was going by what my CDL instructor told me just two days ago. He said that all but one of the entrances at GMM were posted with regulation signs. That must be presumably the theater entrance you mentioned.

You can go on about being a law-abiding citizen if you want, but if the laws said you were required to submit to a daily search by police officers, they wouldn't be right. You have a duty to disobey unjust laws while trying to get them changed. Fortunately our Texas laws will be changing during the next leg. session. I've spoken with all of my reps and they all assure me they'll be backing carry EVERYWHERE not covered by federal law.

That's good, and I enthusiastically support it. But I do disagree with your idea that it is my duty to disobey unjust laws. No, actually it is my duty to work toward having unjust laws changed or struck down. THAT is my duty regarding unjust laws. In the meantime, I'll obey the law, even though it grates in my craw to do so. Doing what you advocate might result in the revocation of my right to carry, and a possible conviction, if caught. As the primary wage earner and head of a family who is dependent on my income, it would be stupid to expose myself to that liability in that way just to make a social statement.

 

[bogie]

Guys, call them. Send notes. Keep up the pressure.

FWIW, the St. Louis Galleria is still posted.

I like the Restoration Hardware store - sometimes they just have some kinda cool stuff, and I like the quality of their lamps, etc...

When the Galleria posted, I sent the corp office of Restoration Hardware a note. Guess what? The sign at the exterior door to their store came DOWN. Within a week. And while the mall is still posted, I'm guessing that sent a message to the management. Keep it up with other stores.

Suggested strategy: Call a store, and ask if they have an item. Tell 'em you're on the way. When you get to the mall, horrors! You are forbidden to enter! Call 'em back from your cell phone, and tell 'em sorry, but you'll have to buy it somewhere else, since you can't come in the mall. Do they know of any other stores in the area that carry it?

If _enough_ people do this, they notice.

 

[Havegunjoe]

In MN a mall cannot post as they are a landlord. Each individual store can post or not post as they see fit. Now many malls try to put up a non-compliant sign anyway and if asked to leave I would definitely take my money elsewhere. I think they are riding the fence by saying to the anti's hey look, we have a sign, and to the pro side, hey look our sign means nothing.