Contacted a Mall about CCW policy

[Mousegun]

I contacted the West Town Mall in Knoxville regarding the posted no gun policy on the entrance doors. In Tennessee it is a misdemeanor to carry if an establishment is posted and not a "disturbing the peace" charge if you refuse to leave, as in some other states.

It took two tries to get a response but it did finally come with the anticipated results.

>>>> Message:
I request this be made available to mall administration.

A few weeks ago I sent you a message asking if and what steps are being taken to provide added security around the holidays because of reports of possible threats of foreign terrorist activity in malls throughout the U.S.

At that time I suggested the "no firearms" signs be removed as a starter to aid in the chance that if anything did occur, a trained and background checked individual (that all licensed firearm holders are)who has chosen to take the responsibility of his or her own personal security may be able to legally make a difference.

I hoped for a reply even if it was to tell me my suggestion would not be considered. No reply ever came.

Now I submit, in the wake of recent events, you again reconsider my request in that licensed firearm holders have long proven themselves to be honest law abiding citizens that realize, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. ( where have I heard that before ???? ) Just the fact that my wife and I refuse to shop in any establishments that prevent the legal right that the state of Tennessee has granted me is an indicator that we, as other permit holders, do follow the law, honor your no firearms policy and are more or less forced to shop elsewhere although we would much rather use your facility.

I recognize the major task you face in your honest attempt to provide thousands of people security while in your business. It would be progressive if you considered firearm permit holders partners in that responsibility.

Thank you for any consideration. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Here is the response from management:

>>>>>>>>>>Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:32:57 -0500
Thank you for your inquiry to West Town Mall regarding your right to bear arms. We are deeply saddened by the recent events that occurred in Omaha and other incidents that have occurred in various places in the US. Rest assured security and the safety of our shoppers and retailers is always a top priority. We have established outstanding communication and relationships with local law & federal enforcement agencies who have a complete and full understanding of West Town Mall and its layout. We will however have to continue to enforce our police of not allowing weapons on mall property,unless used by law enforcement employees. Along with your right to bear arms it is also your right to determine where you shop, we certainly do not want to lose you and your family as shoppers and we appreciate all the shopping that you have done in the past. We encourage you to continue shopping West Town Mall as we are striving to provide the best shopping experience in East Tennessee but we understand your choice in the event you elect to shop in other environments. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Guys and gals, we must keep trying and not let responses like this get us down or make us give up. Yes, an establishment has the right to deny firearms and yes, we could always go somewhere else, and yes, we could continue to tell owners that we are in fact taking our business elsewhere but at some point we should say, "enough is enough". I have reached that point and will not give up trying to convince and educate even if I have to resort to every cliche' ever used here on the High Road.

 

[Cannonball888]

We will however have to continue to enforce our police of not allowing weapons on mall property

I think they meant policy. Must be a freudian slip.

 

[Eagle103]

we understand your choice in the event you elect to shop in other environments.

Sure they do.

It would be interesting to hear the rationale behind these policies.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Take your dollars elsewhere, then write back to let the victim disarmament experts and their merchants know how much you spent with their competitors.

Socialists may not have principles, but often do understand profits and losses.

 

[TexasRifleman]

s we are striving to provide the best shopping experience in East Tennessee but we understand your choice in the event you elect to shop in other environments.

In other words, business is so good we don't care about you 1 or 2 percent gun owners.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

send em copys of receipts for good bought elsewhere with a cc to the individual store within the mall that lost the sale. get the stores to push mall management. i hate to say it but the ambulance chasers working for management companies will probably make it for naught

 

[Im283]

Screw West Town Mall. I would not go there and spend my money on a bet or a dare. The place is a hell-hole anyway. Bunch of soccer mom cell phone blabbing snoots out there anyway.

People moan about WalMart but at least you can protect yourself there while shopping. And I doubt there is anything at a mall i need that WalMart does not sell.

Is it just me that notices that when there are shootings like the one this week that they always take place in gun free zones. Don't criminals understand they are breaking the law?

 

[papajohn]

In my home state of Missouri carrying a firearm concealed against store/mall policy is a simple matter, if they see it they can only ask you to leave. If you refuse, then you can be charged with Simple Trespass or Peace Disturbance or something minor.

So as long as no one sees my pistol, there's no issue about CCW. If I'm carrying illegally in a mall, and some wacko opens fire, I'm going to shoot the miscreant if at all possible. I'm pretty certain I'd be forgiven for violating their stupid policy. If not, it's a $100 fine or some such, and my CCW could be revoked. Not that big a deal. Given a chance to explain my actions in open court, I doubt any jury on the planet would convict me of ANYTHING.

Papajohn

 

[PennsyPlinker]

I think you also need to write the individual retailers who are losing your business also. The corporate drones in the mall office management aren't affected by anything you say or do until they realize their tenants are unhappy about it.

Personally, I hate malls enough that I don't go in them unless there is absolutely no alternative, gun or no gun. And in PA, there is always a gun.

 

[Eagle103]

send em copys of receipts for good bought elsewhere with a cc to the individual store within the mall that lost the sale.

That sounds like a PITA but a good idea nonetheless.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Stakes vs Odds

They're playing the ODDS not the STAKES in this game.

In their book, less than 2% of their clientele will be CCW people.

The vast majority either won't care or would feel "threatened" by the possibility of CCW where they're shopping.

Those who CCW understand that it's not the odds that matter, so much as the stakes.

These same people will religiously wear their seatbelts when they drive because, hey, you never know. You might drive thousands of miles without an accident but, on the day you actually have one, after driving a whole two miles, that seatbelt will be worth all the discomfort and inconvenience you endured for the other thousands of miles. Because, if you save a life, it's all worth it.

And yet they cannot bring themselves to apply that same rationale to self defense. You may have five thousand shopping days at the mall without incident. On the day you finally have an incident . . . well?

Because, if you save a life, it's all worth it.

And they can't see that for the fears born of their indoctrination.

*Sigh*

You see, YOU have much at stake when you enter the mall. Your risk is measured in life units. Their risk is measured in money. And in that context, playing the odds makes plenty of sense.

When your life is the risk, you begin thinking more of what you'll lose, rather than the likelihood you'll lose it.

 

[Thumper]

I admire their response. I don't agree with their decision, but at least they broached the subject of your personal rights.

The rules are the same as they would be in someone's living room. You dont like the rules, dont visit. You have the freedom to shop elsewhere. You probably should.

 

[WAshooter]

What about picketing the place? If there were enough people to picket then you could get a lot of attention for the cause, especially during the holiday season.

Whenever the granolas from Oregon picket, they get media coverage. the same should apply here. But maybe it doesn't work like that where you are.

 

[Mainsail]

If they forbid the lawful carry of firearms but do absolutely nothing to ensure a sterile (weapon free) environment, then they are permitting the unlawful carry of weapons. In other words, unless they make everyone pass through a metal detector on entry, they are tacitly allowing the illegal carry of weapons.

Tell them that.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

CCW Policies Will Change

Like many others in this forum, I carry whereever I go. I also shop where my right to carry is respected.

But like many others, I know that most signs prohibiting firearms probably ACTUALLY mean "Illegal Firearms" (i.e. those carried by people without CCW permits) are prohibited. None the less, a property owner has the legal right to prohibit persons from his or her private property that may represent a 'danger'.

Given the comments of an Omaha News Director on the day after the Mall murders, it seems that some people regard us as somehow dangerous. The letter from the mall management above seems to say the same thing -- that anyone (other than law enforcement) carrying a weapon is a danger to others. Like it or not, that is the mentality we must overcome in many who fear that guns in the hands of civilians means a 'Wild West' atmosphere where mall shoppers might get into gunfights over parking spots and merchandise refunds.

As a result of that kind of thinking, I'm fairly confident that many CCW permit holders just go on carrying without regard to what the mall entry signs say. I have had a few conversations with others about the Omaha incident since that time and everyone of them agreed that if a legally-armed citizen with a CCW permit had been able to take out the shooter, fewer people on-scene at the time would have been killed or wounded.

My gut instinct tells me that this is not the last time this kind of murder will happen. We have many 'soft targets' in America that armed terrorists can exploit. Those of us with CCW permits should be vigilant, trained and ready.

 

[W.E.G.]

Somebody needs to compile the following:

email, telephone, and address information for management of the mall and management of the stores in the mall.

Publish that information here in order to facilitate readers in notifying those parties of their dissatisfaction with the mall's police... (oops!, I mean POLICY)

We call this a FIRE MISSION.

Please provide coordinates. Pass it along.

 

[Zundfolge]

The thing to do is to push for changes in the law where you live.

Here in Colorado if a business posts a "no firearms" sign, it doesn't carry any special legal weight (unlike in Kansas, Nebraska, Texas and other states where walking into a posted business can get you arrested and your permit revoked).

It doesn't seem right to me that any business owner can put me in legal jeopardy just by posting a stupid little sign (that can easily be obscured if you enter the building at the same time as several other people).

Sure they should be allowed to set policies, but they should not be able to enforce those policies with the police.

If I walk into the mall with no shoes, or no shirt or with my dog, they can't have me arrested, they can only ask me to leave for violating their policies (and only have me arrested if I refuse to leave), this is how it should be for those licensed to carry a gun (and thats how it is here in Colorado).

I STILL would refuse to do business with any business that is posted for the same reason I'd refuse to do business with any business that posted "Whites Only" or "No Jews" or something equally offensive.

My gut instinct tells me that this is not the last time this kind of murder will happen.

You'll notice that pretty much ALL the mass shootings that have taken place in the last few decades have taken place in "Gun Free Zones".

 

[LAR-15]

Malls present a target rich environment of (generally) unarmed victims, especially during the Christmas season.

Stay away.

Just don't shop there if they do not allow CCH or CCW.

 

[dhoomonyou]

concealed is concealed.

 

[novaDAK]

I don't like the way they wrote that response, because they kept saying "YOUR" right to keep and bear arms" it isn't just YOUR right, it's EVERYONE's, including THEIRS. The way they say that is almost like a slap in the face, like their speaking tongue in cheek (subtly mocking way).

 

[nalioth]

Here in Colorado if a business posts a "no firearms" sign, it doesn't carry any special legal weight (unlike in Kansas, Nebraska, Texas and other states where walking into a posted business can get you arrested and your permit revoked).

It doesn't seem right to me that any business owner can put me in legal jeopardy just by posting a stupid little sign (that can easily be obscured if you enter the building at the same time as several other people).

In Texas, we only have two 'legally binding' signs for CHL holders. One is about 3 feet tall and about 2 feet wide. The reason for this is that the state law mandates the whole statute has to be printed in contrasting letters 1 inch tall, if you want to keep licensed folks out. Most businesses don't want a huge sign of legalese at every door, so you don't see very many of them at all. The only other legal sign is the "51%" sign for places that make 51% of their income from alcohol sales.

In Texas, any other sign is not legally binding for CHL holders.

 

[Mtnvalley]

A couple notes on West Towne:

First, the code says that they must post easily-visible signs at each entrance with the following (or "substantially similar") language:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

Fro the same statute: "Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited."

I have never seen such signs posted at West Towne. Actually, I've never seen any signs of any sort referring to the carry of weapons there. During my rare mall visits, I always find it most convenient to park and enter through one of the anchor stores (Sears, Dillard's etc). One can generally find closer parking there, and the entrances are less congested.

Now, I know that I just read a random posting on the internet that said that carry there was prohibited...but I've read a lot of falsehoods on the internet, and I have to go by the letter of the law- which requires that signs with the proscribed wording are posted at all entrances. I'd be happy to take a polygraph and be asked whether I've seen such a sign posted at the mall entrance I've used. I think the OP is perpetrating a hoax.

 

[Master Blaster]

As some Russian once said in the old days of the USSR and centralized planning:

They pretend to provide security, and we pretend to follow their stupid signs.

Concealed means just that, the only time they will see my gun is if I need to use it, at that point their signs will be meaningless anyway.

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by dhoomonyou: concealed is concealed.

Your advocating ILLEGAL activity. I suggest you read the forum rules again.

 

[tn-dave]

I didn't know WestTowne had a no-carry policy. Like MtnValley I usually go in through the Sears. I've carried there many times (You don't understand I have to go eat the chicken from Cajun Cafe sometimes) Never seen a sign at that entrance.

We've done about 75% of our shopping on-line this year.