Contacted a Mall about CCW policy

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Malls

The malls do not care if you shop there or not. The Simon malls make their money renting space. They could not give a flip if you get shot, thus the unarmed guards who only deter shoplifters. To make a difference we must let the retailers know that they are losing out due to the malls policies.
 
I didn't know WestTowne had a no-carry policy. Like MtnValley I usually go in through the Sears. I've carried there many times (You don't understand I have to go eat the chicken from Cajun Cafe sometimes) Never seen a sign at that entrance.
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May be like the ones who run the Mall on Roan Street in Johnson City TN. Their "posting" is one line of text among DOZENS of lines of text on the "Code of Conduct" posted off to the side at ONE (main) entrance.

I tried to make them see that it was a bad policy (especially prosecuting people that got "made" in there when the signage is NOT conspicuous at all), but got the usual drivel in response...

If I knew for SURE that the status quo from back then still stood, I'd write them tonight! As it is, I think I'll find out and act accordingly.

ETA: http://www.mallatjohnsoncity.com/info/codeofconduct.cfm

Status quo? Oh, yeah....fools. :barf:
 
Maybe you should understand the spirit of the rules, not just the letter.
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Easily one of the best posts I've seen on this board.

Tecumseh, nice work on the pointless whistle blowing... You are awesome at the internet.
 
When I read threads such as this, I usually get the idea that most folks do not trust the trained security people to protect them. If I'm not suppose to trust these armed people, then what logic says I'm to trust non-uniformed people, with unknown training, running around with loaded firearms.

I also think it BS about shopping at merchants in the mall. Most folks shop for the cheapest price, which are typically at 'Big Box Stores' loaded with Chinese made goods, once made in America. These BBS are typically not in a mall, but separate from same. I figure most mall merchants know that is where you will most likely spend your money, so I doubt they are too concerned with your fiscal threats. I personally have never found threats of any kind to be a viable option, and threats coming from an armed person worry me.
 
After having read more than one thread on such bans (for the sake of the sheeple), I wonder how they (mgt) would respond to something like this:
******
Dear mall / store / ... management,

I would like to thank you for stepping up and making a personal guarantee of my safety while I patronize your establishment. This world is so full of crazies and it is so comforting to know that (insert business name)is taking a pro-active stance on patron safety.

I can also be less concerned about my family's future. I know that due to your personal guarantee, that in case anything should befall me in the highly unlikely event of a rampaging shooter, and I should become injured, or killed (insert business name) will be taking care of me and or my survivors.

Your close liaison with local law enforcement and the prohibition of weapons demonstrates your willingness and eagerness to accept responsibility for patron safety. Thank You.

******

Sort of quick and crude I know, but maybe if enough people send this to such places, there may be some effect. At least there will be a reply of some sort that is not of a 'canned' nature. Then again, maybe I'm just rambling.
 
I have contacted the General Manager of Valley View Mall here in Roanoke, Va. I have yet to get a response.

:rolleyes:
 
The Ohio Revised Code specifically provides private employers & property owners with protection from liability if they prohibit concealed carry which negates the argument that your injury/loss was caused by their policy absent negligence on their part.

The Buckeye Firearms Association has been active in the past in attempting to organize boycotts against posted businesses but it really is up to the individual. We have decent numbers but just don't take advantage of the opportunity to pool our numbers and influence policy.

Our business is 80% female customers and we have never had the issue raised about concealed carry pro or con. Most people just don't care or aren't aware.
 
i agree that the way to get to them is to write letters to the individual retailers and let them know why you wont be shopping at their stores ! The mall doesnt care whast the individual shopper thinks all they care aboout is how many stores ppay rent every month . The srores dont know why they dont have customers , unless you tell them ! The safety of the shoppers is obviously only a concern of the mall to the extent that they dont want to get sued ! If some shopper get shot by a bad guy ,their only concern is their own liability and the bad press which ends in empty storefronts ! if sued they will claim that they could not possibly be resposible for the voilent act of some nutjob !(and i think they are right ) They are more concerned of their potential liability if your bullets go astray !(and they should be )because lawyers alway go for the deep pockets ! kevin
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by dhoomonyou: concealed is concealed.
Your advocating ILLEGAL activity. I suggest you read the forum rules again.


Relax, I know the rules.

Just making a statement, I would NEVER advise someone to do something Illegal.

Be careful making such claims.

this is the HIGHROAD.
 
If you have as part of your carry law that Malls can post, then write, email and call your reps and demand they repeal that portion of the law. :cuss:

In MN, Malls can't ban carry by their tenants due to our state constitution does not allow banning something that is legal. Only the actual store can post. Most malls do post but it means nothing!!! :neener::neener::neener:

So get out there and change your law or state constitution so that portion of your law is no longer valid. :)
 
Where I live in Colorado you're more likely to be considered an outcast if you don't carry a gun everywhere you go.
 
When I read threads such as this, I usually get the idea that most folks do not trust the trained security people to protect them.
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You are under the false impression that those "trained security people" (if we are talking about mall security) are there to protect you. At least in MY case, they are not. I know this, as it came from the General Manager of 'The Mall at Roan Street' herself.

Unless of course, your idea of "being protected" is having the security guard 'take a description' of the thug that stabs you and takes your wallet and watch...:uhoh: Because the guards are ORDERED *not* to intervene in such things...

YMMV, but unless you know otherwise, you should always ASSUME that security guards are there to protect merchandise and not people.

NO, I'm not knocking security guards. I AM knocking the people that make the policies like this that they must adhere to!

As for "concealed is concealed." Here in NC, it's illegal to carry in a posted place, and our law is teeth-grindingly VAGUE on signage. In other words, a crayon drawing of a no guns sign, 2 square inches big, 10 feet off the entrance would probably be enough to get one's permit yanked if caught carrying inside.

In TN, IIRC there ARE regulations on how the signs need to look and where they need to me, and The Mall DOES NOT comply the last time I checked....

But even in you're within the law, if not "store policy," why on EARTH would you want to patronize an anti-self-defense business in the FIRST place??? :confused:
 
What about picketing the place? If there were enough people to picket then you could get a lot of attention for the cause, especially during the holiday season.
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That is actually a very good idea if you could get enough people involved. Get there early in the morning and strategically place a bunch of people in front of the main entrances, in front of all the BIG store entrances outside (like Best Buy, Macy's, etc..) that get lots of traffic and get the people spread out a lot in the front parking spaces so cars cannot park close to the stores and in fact, limiting the amount of people who can park and shop at the mall. Also, how many people would pull in, see whats going on, and turn back around and go somewhere else? I bet not very much money would be spent there that day. Perfect month to do it too.

Maybe have someone from the Salvation Army out there with a pot ringing a bell open carrying a 1911, and have people occasionally drop some change in there for visual effect :D :D
 
Srigs wrote:
If you have as part of your carry law that Malls can post, then write, email and call your reps and demand they repeal that portion of the law.
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An EXCELLENT point sir. There is probably less 'peeing into the wind' involved in working to have the law changed.

You are under the false impression that those "trained security people" (if we are talking about mall security) are there to protect you. At least in MY case, they are not. I know this, as it came from the General Manager of 'The Mall at Roan Street' herself.
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- Well there are some security guards who wear body armor and have tactical golf carts that do care :)
 
Another angle to approach malls/stores/businesses/banks that post a "No concealed carry" sign is to ask them to change it to "No unlicensed concealed carry" sign. I have seen many supermarkets in Dallas area that have "No unlicensed concealed carry" signs at the doors.

Urging every business of any kind to just post "No Unlicensed Concealed carry." is the best plan we can use right now.

I suspect this is done mostly to satisfy insurance companies and I wish all businesses did it like that. Of course legally and logically this is about as much nonsense as a "No shoplifting or attacking other shoppers." sign since it's illegal to unlicensed concealed carry anyway..... Oh well.

At least it's jogging in the right direction.

P.S. Suggest the above point to your employer and stores you shop at! Perhaps this will make managers join our side of the issue. Odds are most of their resistance is based on keeping insurance companies happy.
 
Interestingly, I just took my Texas CHL class yesterday, and this aspect of having a CHL was covered in some detail. I guess I never gave it much thought before, but it becomes evident that I will not ever be shopping again at the local mall. One of my class instructors told us that this particular mall has the Texas 30.06 sign posted at all but one of the entrances. That one entrance is a public entrance, but he would not divulge which one it was. Technically, if you are carrying (with a CHL) and you enter through that entrance, you are covered because you can claim that there was no 30.06 sign posted at the entrance. I don't care enough about shopping there to try and figure out which entrance it is. However, that mall also has an insanely high number of car break ins in their parking lot, so it would be irresponsible in the extreme to secure one's firearm in the car there even if one was willing to enter unarmed.

I won't ever shop there again, but it's not that big a loss for me as I almost never went there anyway. I hate me a mall with a passion.
 
I have seen many supermarkets in Dallas area that have "No unlicensed concealed carry" signs at the doors.
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That's because the TABC requires any business with a liquor license that's not a 51% establishment to post the signs.
 
I've been a legally carrying CCW holder for 4 years now. In Ohio we have www.OhioCCW.org to post all businesses that displayed the no carry weapon policy and ALL of these businesses were boycotted by it's members. I don't have the technical ability to form another such website data base on a National Level but it would be great if someone did. When these issues came up in the past there was so much negative publicity MANY large companies changed their "policies" on this matter when they saw just how many potential customers would no longer frequent their establishments. I bought about 100 of their business cards that showed them if they were making their businesses "Victim Zones" with their policies I would no longer spend ANY of my $$$ in their businesses. All the local Kroger stores had the signs posted and within 2 weeks they were removed across the City after being posted on this website. The site owners would e-mail the management and show them the actual numbers of legal owners boycotting their business and most were overwhelmed in the numbers and dropped the ineffective policies. There is power in numbers, and there are MANY of us that need to speak up in unison against these ignorant "policies". I too carry almost everywhere but will avoid these places that post these signs more as a financial boycott than fear of discovery. As mentioned concealed means comcealed and unless metal detectors are present I carry where ever I can. I still drop these anti-CCW cards regularly and get some funny looks, but sooner or later they will catch on. How many innocent shoppers need to die before they catch on?

Here is a copy of a sample letter they send to these businesses. You could probably use and edit as needed for your locality


Ohio’s Concealed Handgun Law
What Every Business Owner Needs to Know
It has come to our attention that your establishment has posted signs prohibiting licensed concealed carry. We have found that many businesses post signs after being misled or coerced. Many tell us they thought it was required.
As a property owner and leader in your community we know you have put a lot of thought into how to best care for the safety of your patrons and employees. We can imagine that the new Ohio Concealed Carry laws have left you with questions. The following facts may help you better understand those laws and the large community of law-abiding licensees who would like to patronize your business:

• Concealed Handgun Licensees Are Proven Good Guys. One must undergo a rigorous background check, be fingerprinted, and receive training on the safe use and legal ramifications of carrying a handgun for self defense by a state-approved instructor. Neither felons nor anyone with drug convictions may hold a CHL license.

• “No Firearms” Signs Are Dangerous. Studies show that banning legal firearms actually increases the risk of violent crime. Many criminals already intent on committing robbery and assault will target places with “No Firearms” signs because they know no one will be able to stop them. Such a sign only prohibits law-abiding citizens, including off duty police officers, from being equipped to defend themselves.

• “No Firearms” Signs Discourage Patrons. As “No Firearms” signs actually create a more dangerous environment, many alert consumers encourage their friends and families to avoid businesses that prohibit the lawful carry of defensive firearms on their premises for their safety. Businesses that post “No Firearms” signs are entered into our Do Not Patronize While Armed Database to inform all Ohioans.

• Posting Signs Is Your Choice. Under current law you have no obligation to post signs banning legal firearms, contrary to the spurious recommendations promulgated by some government officials and various business associations. The choice is entirely yours.

• There Is No Liability Risk. There is a common misconception that business owners risk litigation by allowing legal firearms on their property. Some insurance companies have even spread inaccurate information. Section 2923.126(C)(2)(a) of The Ohio Revised Code grants all businesses immunity from any action taken by legal firearm carriers. While the liability for the actions of a legal licensee generally rests with the licensee, you may be liable for injuries that result from prohibiting self-defense.

• Legal Firearms Save Lives. In the 48 states that allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms for self-defense, there have been numerous cases where a legally carried firearm prevented or stopped a violent attack. Competent studies have shown that over 98% of these incidents end without any shots being fired.
There is a lot of information available regarding this subject. We strongly urge you to do your own research before deciding whether or not to prohibit self-defense in your place of business. You are invited to visit our website and read "What Business Owners Need to Know About the Concealed Carry Law". Among other things, you will learn that there are no credible studies showing increased danger to businesses allowing concealed carry. This can be found at http://www.OhioCCW.org/business if you have any questions about this issue; I am at your service and can be reached through the contact information provided below.
Sincerely,
 
From the Code of Conduct of College Square Mall, Morristown TN

20. Pursuant to State Code TCA 39-17-1359, the owner/operator of this property has banned weapons on this property, or within this building or this portion of this building. Failure to comply with this prohibition is punishable as a criminal act under state law and may subject the violator to a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500).
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This shopping center is private property and no rights shall accrue to the public by virtue of the public’s entry into this mall or on mall property. This “Behavioral Code of Conduct” is not intended to deprive any person of their applicable civil rights or liberties under the law. If you feel your rights are being violated, please notify the mall management office.
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Hook686 said:
When I read threads such as this, I usually get the idea that most folks do not trust the trained security people to protect them.
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Trained? TRAINED!?! :eek: Trained to do what? :barf: I've encountered many a security person in my life, and was even employed as one for a very brief stint during my college years. Any training that goes on seems to cover how to talk to friends and others in the peer group, whether that peer group consists of late teens or late 70s. They might get some direction on giving directions, and know how to fill out a form if someone falls flat on their face, but I don't think they have the training OR the equipment to handle a bad guy intent on doing harm.

Hook686 said:
If I'm not suppose to trust these armed people, then what logic says I'm to trust non-uniformed people, with unknown training, running around with loaded firearms.
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No one is saying trust anyone else. What people are saying is that someone who have been vetted by that particular municipality's process and trusted to handle a weapon should be able to bring it into the mall without the assumption that that person will start shooting anyone needlessly. And while I might not trust you or anyone else with my own safety, I should be able to trust myself. :fire:


Green Lantern said:
As for "concealed is concealed." Here in NC, it's illegal to carry in a posted place, and our law is teeth-grindingly VAGUE on signage. In other words, a crayon drawing of a no guns sign, 2 square inches big, 10 feet off the entrance would probably be enough to get one's permit yanked if caught carrying inside.
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I was in NC last October on business, at the Colosseum in Greensboro. They had the place posted with very prominent signs, along with warnings that security people might stop and search me. So I left my gun in the truck. :(

The "security people" assigned to our section of the convention center consisted of two women in their 70s :scrutiny:, and one man also in his 70s, who was recovering from a stroke. :uhoh: While they were very friendly, they did not inspire a lot of confidence that they could protect anything against a determined bad guy.
 
Why complain? These owners are just exercising their rights. Do you people actually think you should be able to trounce their rights so you can have your own way? If so don't forget what goes around comes around.
If you see a no firearm sign then turn around and go someplace else. No need in whinning and complaining. Those people have made their decision.
 
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