Should I take down my sign?

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SuperMagnum

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I recently moved into some shop space in an industrial park for my business. I have a sign on the wall that says "Never mind the dog, beware of owner" and then a picture of a revolver as if it was being pointed.

It's a joke mainly, though I do happen to protect my shop with a revolver, if necessary. I was working in there late tonight with my door open and two cops walked in and scared the crap out of me. I wasn't doing anything wrong, they just wanted to know about one of my neighbors, it seems they are looking for him. :uhoh:

Anyway, both were very nice but definately took notice of my sign and gave me the stink eye. Didn't say anything about it. Might a sign like this have some legal implications if I ever do have to defend my shop? Something along the lines of "premeditation" or just being some kind of nut job with a gun?
 
The sign will have the same effect on the police/patrons/lawyers/jury et al. that it does on the criminals... it will let them know you are armed.... that can be a bad thing or a good thing.... but I can't see it helping you in front of a jury.... and I can see it driving away some business if you are perceived as a loon by them...

It's your place and you can do what you want (even I would wonder a minute seeing that sign, but I'd still do business with you)... but I would loose the sign....
 
There won't really be any customers in there, except at the front. I have resisted the urge to put it on the front door.:D

Security is a big issue for me down there, I've installed several extra dead bolts and I'm working on a complicated security/video system. I guess I need to decide whether I want them to know I'm armed or not.


Another issue this brings up for me: if the door is open can the cops just come barging in like that for any reason? Not that I had anything to hide, but if they hadn't been in uniform I probably would have pulled my gun...
 
SuperMagnum said:
Anyway, both were very nice but definately took notice of my sign and gave me the stink eye. Didn't say anything about it. Might a sign like this have some legal implications if I ever do have to defend my shop? Something along the lines of "premeditation" or just being some kind of nut job with a gun?

My opinion is that you shouldn't worry about that. If you do ever have the unfortunate need to fire your weapon at an intruder, you will ultimately be judged on the facts of that incident, and not by the funny sign hanging on the wall.

Moreover, those signs are pretty common, and I don't think it would necessarily lead a person to believe that you were a bloodthirsty killer.




SuperMagnum said:
There won't really be any customers in there, except at the front. I have resisted the urge to put it on the front door.

Security is a big issue for me down there, I've installed several extra dead bolts and I'm working on a complicated security/video system. I guess I need to decide whether I want them to know I'm armed or not.


Another issue this brings up for me: if the door is open can the cops just come barging in like that for any reason? Not that I had anything to hide, but if they hadn't been in uniform I probably would have pulled my gun...

Hard to say why they walked right in, without a bit more context. I generally try to avoid doing that kind of stuff. Still, given that it is a business, it is possible that the officers didn't feel that they were walking into a non-public area. I've also often found that it is tough to locate someone to speak with in many warehouse areas, and we do occasionally need to walk around these facilities a little bit before we can locate an employee.

Personally, with only a few exceptions I always prefer to be a "knock and announce" type of cop! I do this mainly so I don't have any unpleasant surprises with an innocent homeowner/business owner.

By way of tangentially related example, on alarm calls we'll occasionally arrive to find a door on a home/business standing wide open (but without any obvious damage that would lead us to belive that it was definitely a burglar). These cases can -and do- end up going either way. It could be that a legal occupant set off the alarm, or it could be a criminal!

If that situation presents itself, and an occupant isn't around to identify themselves to us, we will certainly clear the building for possible burglars. But, in many cases we simply end up finding the lawful owner inside. As such, before I enter a building in that type of capacity I will yell an announcement of: "Police Department! If you are in the building make yourself known to me now!"

If there is a bad guy inside of the facility this can obviously cost you the element of surprise, but you do tend to gain a secondary advantage as you suddenly hear the person charging through the house or spontaneously saying "Oh, s%$&, cops!". On the other hand, if the person inside of the building is a legal occupant, they will almost always quickly identify themselves to us, which avoids putting us in a situation where we may think we've found a bad guy concealed in the residence, or where the resident believes that he is being robbed. I seek to avoid "friendly fire" as much as possible!

Long and short of it is that I doubt I would have ended up walking in like that if I was the officer who responded (but, again, context is everything).
 
Yeah - I do understand the part about it being a business and a "public" area. I had some music on but it wasn't that loud, they definately didn't announce themselves. First they scared me because two big guys are already 40 feet into my building before I see them...and they're cops! :what: Not that I'm involved in illegal activity, but generally when I see a cop I get worried. :p

And now I have to wonder why they were looking for the neighbor...they wouldn't elaborate. I thought for sure it would be the crazy russian next door, or the pot head/guitar player on my other side. They were looking for the one guy I thought was nice and normal!

I swear this place is just a reality show waiting to happen. :banghead:
 
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I had several of these types of signs on my garage in the past. There was a thread running here a few years ago that pointed out how bad an idea it was. I took them down. This was advice from lawyers that were members here.

With all the litigation we may be subjected to in our lives, I think complicating things could be a poor idea.

YMMV
 
I got rid of all my Signs, bumper stickers, etc, as far as the world around me knows I am just a nice old man with a cane. ( In reality I got a 9mm in my pocket and a real bad attitude about being selected as a victem)
 
I think these signs are a very bad idea. I'd consider other signs--"Monitored by Security Cameras," "Patrolled by Rent-a Cops," etc., but the type of signs you have could be used against you ifyou ever found yourself facing questions of whether you had improperly used lethal force in defending yourself or others.

Also, FWIW, I'd question whether they are effective in scaring away bad guys.
 
SuperMagnum said:
Security is a big issue for me down there, I've installed several extra dead bolts and I'm working on a complicated security/video system. I guess I need to decide whether I want them to know I'm armed or not.

Then why was your door wide open? hmmmm
 
"Anyway, both were very nice but definately took notice of my sign and gave me the stink eye."

The wisdom of posting the sign notwithstanding, their attitude is a solid reminder that *your* safety is *your* responsibility.

Tim
 
Anyway, both were very nice but definately took notice of my sign and gave me the stink eye.

Well, unless you want them hanging out in your shop, who cares? Last I checked, cops carry guns all the time. If they don't like it, they can go to hell.

These aren't the kinds of cops who will be there if you need 'em anyway. I shoot with a bunch of cops and retired cops. None of them would do anything but smile if they saw a sign like that. And they're the kind of cops I'd want around if I needed 'em.

And I'd WANT a criminal to suspect that I'm a "nut job with a gun." That makes it less likely that I'll ever have to use the gun.
 
It seems to me anything that'll give away the element of surprise when interacting with a criminal is not at all a good idea.
 
A lot will depend on where you are, but being subtle, maintaining good OPSEC and not telegraphing your intentions can never be a bad idea.
 
I'd say if you think the sign will cost you business, take it down.

If you think the sign will deter bad guys, keep it up.

Personally, I make my own decisions and live with them.
I think people in general respect others who stick by their guns.
(no pun intended)

If a couple of cops give you attitude, the hell with them.
The LEO I've known wouldn't be like that.
I'd definitely get some type of alarm system that lets you
know when someone is entering your shop though.
 
In reality, no jury or law dog will try to get you on some novelty sign that says that. If they did, it would make a judge and jury sit up and take notice of how that idiot lawyer was trying to use a last ditch effort to rty to convict a law abiding citizen who used his right to protect himself. I don't feel that sign is negative in any way. I'd personally leave it up. If I owned my one business where the public could walk in and possibly rob me, I'd probably have visible CCTV cameras, and a sign that read, Smile, your picture is being sent real time to the police station!
 
This may not really apply to a business situation, but more than one cop has told me that "This Vehicle is Protected by Smith & Wesson" bumper stickers are another way of telling criminals "Break into My Vehicle and Steal My Smith & Wesson"
 
If you see a bumper sticker saying "This car insured by Smith & Wesson", do you always think the driver carries, or has a gun on board? Or does he just like the sticker?
 
If you see a bumper sticker saying "This car insured by Smith & Wesson", do you always think the driver carries, or has a gun on board? Or does he just like the sticker?

If I'm a criminal with opportunity, a brick and 10 seconds lets me find out for sure. If there's no gun, hey, with the loose change in the console I still walk away 2 dollars richer than before. It's not like the quick grab got in the way of my day job.
 
I used to go into an electronics store that had, above the counter, a set of framed targets with nice groups. They had some pencil scratches on them that I never bothered to read but you could tell that the shooter was happy with the groups. The shop had other neat pictures up.

I much prefer that. Nothing overt, no bravado. If you compete or do any sort of recreational shooting you could also have pictures of that going on. Not threats, but mementos that show the positive side of shooting... but at the same time can be a deterrent to would-be aggressors.
 
Also, FWIW, I'd question whether they are effective in scaring away bad guys.

I disagree. I think signs like that would give pause to the vast majority of criminals, but of course an armed crack head with nothing to live for won't pause for long.



...more than one cop has told me that "This Vehicle is Protected by Smith & Wesson" bumper stickers are another way of telling criminals "Break into My Vehicle and Steal My Smith & Wesson"

Regardless of what a few LEOs might think, and I've seen this belief posted about with reckless abandon, but nobody ever can give an example of a thief acting on a bumper sticker. I think it comes down to the area you park your vehicle in, not what decals you choose to stick to your truck.
 
Another issue this brings up for me: if the door is open can the cops just come barging in like that for any reason? Not that I had anything to hide, but if they hadn't been in uniform I probably would have pulled my gun...
My understanding (and I am not a lawyer or a legal adviser of any means) is that if the door is open they are allowed to enter the building (at least in my state) but if it is closed they are required to knock and, depending on the situation, must have a warrant to enter.
First they scared me because two big guys are already 40 feet into my building before I see them...and they're cops! Not that I'm involved in illegal activity, but generally when I see a cop I get worried.
I can commiserate, I have the greatest respect for our civil servants, but I have never had a situation where the police showed up to help me change a tire or move a couch...

Take the sign down to avoid legal difficulties and keep the gun close. My thoughts are that a warning would only let the BG know I could fight back, I enjoy the element of surprise.
 
If you see a bumper sticker saying "This car insured by Smith & Wesson", do you always think the driver carries, or has a gun on board? Or does he just like the sticker?

In California, or in Idaho?:D

I don't have or want gun- or hunting-related stickers on my vehicles, because I've had enough vehicle break-ins in my life.

However, in a stationary business, this is not a concern. Also, if I were always IN my vehicle, I think such a sticker might be a deterrent.
 
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