WSM MAGNUM
Member
Absolutely not! 
Should LEOs have more "rights" than non-LEOs?
- Thread starter Autolycus
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The Amigo
Member
Don't tell me about rights privilege's and just or unjust laws the question still stands ----->how striping me of carrying off duty will advance your cause?
[/QUOTE]They are not rights until they are able to be exercised by everyone.
Not true as a matter a fact Handicapped people have privilege's under special circumstances that are law under the american disability act, that all of us dont have.
Shall we strip them of their privilege's 2 And get rid of those parking spaces for the elderly or handicapped near the entrances of them shopping malls just to make it equal for all?
[/QUOTE]They are not rights until they are able to be exercised by everyone.
Not true as a matter a fact Handicapped people have privilege's under special circumstances that are law under the american disability act, that all of us dont have.
Shall we strip them of their privilege's 2 And get rid of those parking spaces for the elderly or handicapped near the entrances of them shopping malls just to make it equal for all?
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Being a cop is a job...
no different from any other job.
Your job doesn't make you special. Cops aren't special. If you are a cop you're not special. You shouldn't have any additional rights/privileges/authority at all, once you're off the clock. None.
Also, cops using the term "civilian" to refer to non-cops pi$$e$ me off. You're not in the military, ergo, you are a civilian.
There is no difference between you and the greeter at Wal-Mart.
You do a dangerous, necessary job, for which you are reasonably well paid. It is far from the most dangerous job out there (look at the death rates by profession.) You chose to become a cop, and you can quit whenever you want.
You get a paycheck, and whatever benefits your union and your employer have contracted for. That's it. Nothing else. Because once you clock out you're no more a cop than I am an engineer on Saturday. You are not your job, and your job is not you.
You should not be able to own or carry any guns that I cannot (outside of what you are issued while on duty, if even then), in any places that I cannot. Your life should not be worth more than mine, as regards the penalties for taking it from you. Because you are not special.
If a state passed a law granting cops two votes in every election, how would that be any different? Would those who have argued for cops' abilities to own and carry firearms that their fellow citizens cannot defend such a law? Based on what I've seen, they would.
It is not anti-cop to insist that they are not special or superior classes of citizens. Cops do a difficult, dangerous, and necessary job, for which I thank them. Just as I thank the linemen who keep my lights on, or the crabmen who catch the tasty spider-looking things I like to eat. Lots of people risk their lives as a condition of the jobs they do. None of them deserve special treatment, beyond a higher rate of pay. (Compared to equally-skilled but safer jobs.)
It's just a job.
--Shannon
no different from any other job.
Your job doesn't make you special. Cops aren't special. If you are a cop you're not special. You shouldn't have any additional rights/privileges/authority at all, once you're off the clock. None.
Also, cops using the term "civilian" to refer to non-cops pi$$e$ me off. You're not in the military, ergo, you are a civilian.
There is no difference between you and the greeter at Wal-Mart.
You do a dangerous, necessary job, for which you are reasonably well paid. It is far from the most dangerous job out there (look at the death rates by profession.) You chose to become a cop, and you can quit whenever you want.
You get a paycheck, and whatever benefits your union and your employer have contracted for. That's it. Nothing else. Because once you clock out you're no more a cop than I am an engineer on Saturday. You are not your job, and your job is not you.
You should not be able to own or carry any guns that I cannot (outside of what you are issued while on duty, if even then), in any places that I cannot. Your life should not be worth more than mine, as regards the penalties for taking it from you. Because you are not special.
If a state passed a law granting cops two votes in every election, how would that be any different? Would those who have argued for cops' abilities to own and carry firearms that their fellow citizens cannot defend such a law? Based on what I've seen, they would.
It is not anti-cop to insist that they are not special or superior classes of citizens. Cops do a difficult, dangerous, and necessary job, for which I thank them. Just as I thank the linemen who keep my lights on, or the crabmen who catch the tasty spider-looking things I like to eat. Lots of people risk their lives as a condition of the jobs they do. None of them deserve special treatment, beyond a higher rate of pay. (Compared to equally-skilled but safer jobs.)
It's just a job.
--Shannon
dave_pro2a
Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 447
Tude ee, excellent post.
I especially liked "If a state passed a law granting cops two votes in every election, how would that be any different?"
And btw, it's also not anti-cop to insist that the police have no special access to their rights, over and above what 'normal' citizen do. In for a penny, in for a pound... equal access, that's all we're asking for.
If the laws place officers in danger because they cannot carry on school grounds, or in a post office, then the law also places 'normal' citizens in danger.
Deny the cops that safety until we ALL have it.
HR218 was a farce. Rights will never 'trickle down.' NO cop should be allowed national carry until we ALL can enjoy the unfettered RKBA.
I especially liked "If a state passed a law granting cops two votes in every election, how would that be any different?"
And btw, it's also not anti-cop to insist that the police have no special access to their rights, over and above what 'normal' citizen do. In for a penny, in for a pound... equal access, that's all we're asking for.
If the laws place officers in danger because they cannot carry on school grounds, or in a post office, then the law also places 'normal' citizens in danger.
Deny the cops that safety until we ALL have it.
HR218 was a farce. Rights will never 'trickle down.' NO cop should be allowed national carry until we ALL can enjoy the unfettered RKBA.
The Amigo
Member
Gentelmen you guys perceive that LEOs carrying guns are marching over your rights and I Believe thats incorrect. An LEO job is to ensure the laws are followed. You dont need a gun for that right?. A gun is a tool not a right for the LEO to defend his life against people who are willing to put an end to a life in order to continue to crap all over laws and others people rights as well.
To take away guns from LEOs weather on duty or not (LEOs are 24h on duty on most states) is like asking a carpenter to build you a house with no hammer and nails. Like ive said here 1000 times THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE LAWMAKERS FOR NOT MAKING LAWS UP TO PAR.
To take away guns from LEOs weather on duty or not (LEOs are 24h on duty on most states) is like asking a carpenter to build you a house with no hammer and nails. Like ive said here 1000 times THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE LAWMAKERS FOR NOT MAKING LAWS UP TO PAR.
pcosmar
member
The RKBA is a civil right. The 2nd amendment is THE law.
Anyone who infringes on that right is guilty of a civil rights violation.
Anyone who enforces any gun law, that infringes on a citizens right to Keep or Carry any arm, is guilty of a civil rights violation.
Dress it up any way you like, it is a Pig wearing Lipstick.
Anyone who infringes on that right is guilty of a civil rights violation.
Anyone who enforces any gun law, that infringes on a citizens right to Keep or Carry any arm, is guilty of a civil rights violation.
Dress it up any way you like, it is a Pig wearing Lipstick.
BobCav
Member
Police do not make sure all laws are followed, that's an impossible task.....but to hold accountable those who break the law.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Parity
Citizen: We want to carry whatever the LEO can carry and we want to carry in all the same places, as we are not lesser men than they.
LEO: Why do you want to disarm me?
Dude . . . wait . . . what?
LEO: Well, "common" citizens shouldn't be allowed to carry (X) or take their guns into (Y) -- 'cuz itz the law, you know -- so if they want us to have the same rights and access, then by that standard the police would be disarmed and you can't do that because we have a dangerous job.
Ahh, no, actually, Citizen was just remarking that since the 2A is universal, their right to carry shouldn't be abridged any more than yours is . . .
LEO: Arrgh! No! There are laws! Those laws were written by legislators that were elected by Citizen and his ilk, so the laws must be the will of the people, so they really have no grounds for complaint. Besides, it's my job to enforce the law, whatever it is.
Uhhh, dude, the Constitution -- Bill of Rights, actually -- expressly protects the rights of the minority in the face of majority stupidity. Any law that violates it is invalid on its face and must not be enforced.
LEO: You citizens! Always whining and complaining and trying to disarm us and make our job harder! We have a dangerous job!
Mod: Well, this is going nowhere fast . . .
Citizen: We want to carry whatever the LEO can carry and we want to carry in all the same places, as we are not lesser men than they.
LEO: Why do you want to disarm me?
Dude . . . wait . . . what?
LEO: Well, "common" citizens shouldn't be allowed to carry (X) or take their guns into (Y) -- 'cuz itz the law, you know -- so if they want us to have the same rights and access, then by that standard the police would be disarmed and you can't do that because we have a dangerous job.
Ahh, no, actually, Citizen was just remarking that since the 2A is universal, their right to carry shouldn't be abridged any more than yours is . . .
LEO: Arrgh! No! There are laws! Those laws were written by legislators that were elected by Citizen and his ilk, so the laws must be the will of the people, so they really have no grounds for complaint. Besides, it's my job to enforce the law, whatever it is.
Uhhh, dude, the Constitution -- Bill of Rights, actually -- expressly protects the rights of the minority in the face of majority stupidity. Any law that violates it is invalid on its face and must not be enforced.
LEO: You citizens! Always whining and complaining and trying to disarm us and make our job harder! We have a dangerous job!
Mod: Well, this is going nowhere fast . . .
anygunanywhere
Member
Amigo, sorry, the "on duty 24 hours a day" does not cut it. Like Tub-bee posted, it is a job.
My job requires me to respond 24/7/365, anywhere in North America. Sure, you can argue that your job is more dangerous than others, but I have been a pall bearer on a co-worker's funeral. I was his shift supervisor. His last words to me before we loaded him into the chopper were for me to take care of his wife and kids. Am I special? Do I deserve more rights than you? Folks die at work all day long. People give their lives for strangers. Some do it and it is not even their job. I admire every working man who works hard, does his job, raises his children, loves his wife. No special treatment. If my rights are restricted by legislation, so should yours. In fact, those who are allowed by law to exercise their rights above all others should be screaming THE LOUDEST for those rights to be restored to us. Instead, we hear more about LEO who think we should not even be allowed to KBA.
I have not read all posts on this thread so this may have been mentioned.
The ones in this country who create and nurture the class system of citizens and the priviledged are primarily our local, state, and federal governments, along with the social elites (read Hollywood).
Time to change things. Follow in the founder's example. Add our "elite priviledged class" to the ones we threw out in the Revolutionary War.
Anygunanywhere
dave_pro2a
Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 447
Quote: "LEOs are 24h on duty on most states"
Damn, I want their paycheck. I mean heck, if they get paid for workign 24/7 just think of the overtime they must reap.
No, cops do not work 24/7, nor are they 'on duty' 27/4 -- doesn't matter what departamental policy says... just read the paychyeck.
Damn, I want their paycheck. I mean heck, if they get paid for workign 24/7 just think of the overtime they must reap.
No, cops do not work 24/7, nor are they 'on duty' 27/4 -- doesn't matter what departamental policy says... just read the paychyeck.
pcosmar
member
I did not say it would help to violate anyones rights.
It is the enforcers who violate the civil rights of the Citizens.
There should be NO difference between police and other citizens.
There should be NO law to prohibit the Keeping or Bearing of arms anywhere at any time.
Any law so written is illegal. Period...
possum
Member
no ploice and military alike should not get any special treatment. they (we) do a job and that is all it is, we are no better and police are no better than the average citizen we are citizens too. we should have to do the same as civilians. just because they are a solider or police officer dosen't mean that they are any more proffecient or better with a weapon than anyone that isn't military, or a leo.
The Amigo
Member
We can argue all you want but we do have to respond 24/7 its not what u all believe its whats written in black and white.
This mentality is exactly why we get hammered in town meeting and politician crap all over us.
All I say is stop the I don't have it so you shall not have it. Its childish, selfish and its the worst approach I have ever seen in trying to get a collective National CCW. You want allies this way?
This mentality is exactly why we get hammered in town meeting and politician crap all over us.
All I say is stop the I don't have it so you shall not have it. Its childish, selfish and its the worst approach I have ever seen in trying to get a collective National CCW. You want allies this way?
I think it was during the Nuremburg Trials where the West (rightfully or wrongfully) stated that "simply carrying out orders" was no excuse.
There is a lotta ego stroking in any organization that wields more power than the "common citizen". Police are no more immune to this than engineers or medical doctors when they are grouped together at a function.
We need law and order, but we don't need to legislate further stratification of society.
There is a lotta ego stroking in any organization that wields more power than the "common citizen". Police are no more immune to this than engineers or medical doctors when they are grouped together at a function.
We need law and order, but we don't need to legislate further stratification of society.
anygunanywhere
The Amigo
Think about the implications of what you just said. Please.
Why? Not that that they should be AGAINST us, but why should they be loudly FOR us?
I hear SOME, I wouldn’t say MORE.
The Amigo
I must agree with you there. Schadenfreude is a drug, and overindulgence makes one operationally less intelligent.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
The Amigo
See post #136.
They want their rights back so they can carry everywhere, too.
There are probably half a dozen ways I can express "there shall be no special privilege granted to special groups in the face of the denial of rights to the common citizen."
I can say, "you shouldn't have any right/privilege that I don't have." And you can interpret that to mean I want you to be barred from off-duty carry.
I can say, "I should be allowed to carry anything you can and carry anywhere you can." And you can interpret that to mean I'm trying to get access to specialty tools only needed in special instances at your job.
The constitutional guarantee of the right to bear arms is not addressed to police. It is addressed to "the people" -- the common citizen. And yet, the police carry in public, in private, in schools, in courts, and so on. And the common citizen may not.
The common citizen is denied a basic right. The police -- a station and duty created by legislators -- enjoys exemption from this rights denial.
The common man observes this denial/exemption dichotomy and perceives an injustice.
The common man wants his rights back.
The common man, frankly, doesn't care whether the policeman has special extensions to his duties that require him to be prepared for action round the clock and in all venues.
The common man simply sees that he, himself, is not permitted (in abridgement of his rights) to be so prepared round the clock in all venues.
This disparity is that thing to which the common man objects.
Go ahead, fulfill your duties, carry round the clock, defend your person.
Don't pretend that the common man shouldn't be allowed to do the same.
See post #136.
Compare your quote:
Nobody wants the cops to stop carrying.
They want their rights back so they can carry everywhere, too.
There are probably half a dozen ways I can express "there shall be no special privilege granted to special groups in the face of the denial of rights to the common citizen."
I can say, "you shouldn't have any right/privilege that I don't have." And you can interpret that to mean I want you to be barred from off-duty carry.
I can say, "I should be allowed to carry anything you can and carry anywhere you can." And you can interpret that to mean I'm trying to get access to specialty tools only needed in special instances at your job.
The constitutional guarantee of the right to bear arms is not addressed to police. It is addressed to "the people" -- the common citizen. And yet, the police carry in public, in private, in schools, in courts, and so on. And the common citizen may not.
The common citizen is denied a basic right. The police -- a station and duty created by legislators -- enjoys exemption from this rights denial.
The common man observes this denial/exemption dichotomy and perceives an injustice.
The common man wants his rights back.
The common man, frankly, doesn't care whether the policeman has special extensions to his duties that require him to be prepared for action round the clock and in all venues.
The common man simply sees that he, himself, is not permitted (in abridgement of his rights) to be so prepared round the clock in all venues.
This disparity is that thing to which the common man objects.
Go ahead, fulfill your duties, carry round the clock, defend your person.
Don't pretend that the common man shouldn't be allowed to do the same.
The Amigo
Member
The common man is the only one who has control over their legislators.
Teach them when voting time comes around..
Chui,
Most of these arguments would apply just as well to people in "shall issue" states vs. those of us who aren't as free. Shall I try to diminish their rights again, to avoid stratification?
I disagree with you there. Change is virtually always incremental. There has to be some stratification, at some time, in order for change to occur. If no one is free at all, no one ever will be. There must be an interim state where the change begins, and SOME are free.
Most of these arguments would apply just as well to people in "shall issue" states vs. those of us who aren't as free. Shall I try to diminish their rights again, to avoid stratification?
pcosmar
member
The Amigo said,
Good voting choices are few, but I'm working on that too.
I am workin' on that.
Good voting choices are few, but I'm working on that too.
glummer, your points are not valid. There is supposed to be reciprocity between the states. The answer to 99% of this nation's woes lie in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution which will require everyone studying the Constutional Debates.
I have no issues with anyone carrying to defend their person as long as they are responsible and trained in the usage of firearms - and probably emergency first aid (something we all need anyway).
I don't see where you equate "no further stratifies society" with lack of liberty. Liberty is liberty. We the people need to wake from our induced slumber, STUDY the philosophy of the Founders (and study Frederic Bastiat's THE LAW), organize and act accordingly. NO SHOTS NEED FIRED. Anything else will be a horrific failure.
I have no issues with anyone carrying to defend their person as long as they are responsible and trained in the usage of firearms - and probably emergency first aid (something we all need anyway).
I don't see where you equate "no further stratifies society" with lack of liberty. Liberty is liberty. We the people need to wake from our induced slumber, STUDY the philosophy of the Founders (and study Frederic Bastiat's THE LAW), organize and act accordingly. NO SHOTS NEED FIRED. Anything else will be a horrific failure.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Tecumseh said, "We are just asking for equality."
Not one thing wrong with that. But why rag on the cops? They don't make any of the laws. And it's not at all correct--or logical--that the cops "have more rights".
Again, it's that non-cops are DENIED rights. Phrasing the issue that cops have MORE rights merely leads to a bunch of folks choosing up sides and smelling armpits...
The only real redress is legislative...
Art
Not one thing wrong with that. But why rag on the cops? They don't make any of the laws. And it's not at all correct--or logical--that the cops "have more rights".
Again, it's that non-cops are DENIED rights. Phrasing the issue that cops have MORE rights merely leads to a bunch of folks choosing up sides and smelling armpits...
The only real redress is legislative...
Art
Based on the current poll results...
It is obvious that 92% of you guys are laboring under the illusion that the police are agents of the people and should therefore not have any more rights, priviledges (what ever you want to call them) than everyone else - nice thought. What color is the sky in your world? ROFLMFAO!!! X2
Cops don't work for the people now and most likely there is no recorded instance in history when they ever have - even as far back as caveman days when Grog the local chief relied on his buddy Gronk to make sure that all the other cavemen did what he said. Rest assured that Gronk was the biggest, strongest, meanest so and so in the tribe and that's why he was Grog's enforcer. No doubt Grog supplied Gronk with the biggest, heaviest club he could have the tribe's club maker make and made sure that no one else in the tribe could have one like it (assuming of course they were even permitted to have clubs - weapons control isn't a new idea).
What ever the government may call them - LEO's past, present and future were, are and always will be AGENTS of the STATE. They work for the state. They take their direction from the state. They are paid by the state. AND they are - understandably - generally loyal to the state. They don't work for you (though the Cops - like you - have been indoctrinated to believe they do). Aside: if you harbor doubts concerning who the Cop's real bosses are then contact me soon - there's a lot of primo land in southern Florida with beautiful lakes, forests and pasture land populated with passive and kindly reptilian friends I'll sell ya - cheap.
Being agents of the state does in fact create a special class of citizen - after all if we were on an equal footing with the enforcers how could they control us? Answer - they couldn't and our masters know that (that's what the critters in D.C. really are - our masters - and you all know that to be true - though it is a hard thing to admit) . Thus desiring to retain their status as masters they give extra priviledges to their loyal enforcers (just like Grog did for Gronk) so they can more easily control us and keep us from changing their status - it's good to be the KING!. And that's what LEO's are all about - controlling the rabble, the mob, the masses. But mostly it's about protecting the masters (don't believe it's all about protecting the masters then take a look at the places where CCW is generally prohibited).
But then y'all know that already don't you. It's just that acknowledging it is so hard for so many to do that we labor under the illusion that we're really in control because we have convinced ourselves that we can vote the bastards out - which might be true - except we just keep replacing the current set of bastards with a new set and nothing ever changes.
Long story short - Cops are the enforcers and the enforcers will always be better armed, have more authority and more priviledges than the citizen - if we can even be described that way anymore. I don't hold this against the cops. Someone's gotta do the dirty work and if you've got the stomach for it and can sleep well at night more power to ya.
So think about it - real hard - as long as you are willing to accept the authority of the state the situation isn't going to change - the cops will continue to get special priviledges you don't. Always have, always will. That's just the way human society is whether it is a democracy, a socialist paradise or a tyranical dictatorship. Resolve yourself and get used to the fact that the cops don't work for you and will get privileges you never will.
It is obvious that 92% of you guys are laboring under the illusion that the police are agents of the people and should therefore not have any more rights, priviledges (what ever you want to call them) than everyone else - nice thought. What color is the sky in your world? ROFLMFAO!!! X2
Cops don't work for the people now and most likely there is no recorded instance in history when they ever have - even as far back as caveman days when Grog the local chief relied on his buddy Gronk to make sure that all the other cavemen did what he said. Rest assured that Gronk was the biggest, strongest, meanest so and so in the tribe and that's why he was Grog's enforcer. No doubt Grog supplied Gronk with the biggest, heaviest club he could have the tribe's club maker make and made sure that no one else in the tribe could have one like it (assuming of course they were even permitted to have clubs - weapons control isn't a new idea).
What ever the government may call them - LEO's past, present and future were, are and always will be AGENTS of the STATE. They work for the state. They take their direction from the state. They are paid by the state. AND they are - understandably - generally loyal to the state. They don't work for you (though the Cops - like you - have been indoctrinated to believe they do). Aside: if you harbor doubts concerning who the Cop's real bosses are then contact me soon - there's a lot of primo land in southern Florida with beautiful lakes, forests and pasture land populated with passive and kindly reptilian friends I'll sell ya - cheap.
Being agents of the state does in fact create a special class of citizen - after all if we were on an equal footing with the enforcers how could they control us? Answer - they couldn't and our masters know that (that's what the critters in D.C. really are - our masters - and you all know that to be true - though it is a hard thing to admit) . Thus desiring to retain their status as masters they give extra priviledges to their loyal enforcers (just like Grog did for Gronk) so they can more easily control us and keep us from changing their status - it's good to be the KING!. And that's what LEO's are all about - controlling the rabble, the mob, the masses. But mostly it's about protecting the masters (don't believe it's all about protecting the masters then take a look at the places where CCW is generally prohibited).
But then y'all know that already don't you. It's just that acknowledging it is so hard for so many to do that we labor under the illusion that we're really in control because we have convinced ourselves that we can vote the bastards out - which might be true - except we just keep replacing the current set of bastards with a new set and nothing ever changes.
Long story short - Cops are the enforcers and the enforcers will always be better armed, have more authority and more priviledges than the citizen - if we can even be described that way anymore. I don't hold this against the cops. Someone's gotta do the dirty work and if you've got the stomach for it and can sleep well at night more power to ya.
So think about it - real hard - as long as you are willing to accept the authority of the state the situation isn't going to change - the cops will continue to get special priviledges you don't. Always have, always will. That's just the way human society is whether it is a democracy, a socialist paradise or a tyranical dictatorship. Resolve yourself and get used to the fact that the cops don't work for you and will get privileges you never will.
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