Should off duty cops be subject to the same gun laws as the rest of us?

[ilbob]

What is the point of this question?

Should cops hand in their guns once their shift is over?

apparently that is the question.

i am generally in favor of cops (and other LACs) carrying off duty, but the logic of why is not as simple as we have all been taught in the past. it is not as simple as "cop=gun" and "not cop = no gun".

no reason cops could not be issued a CC permit to carry for their own protection off-duty just like any other LAC. in fact, in some states thats the way it used to be done. and it is not all that long ago when police in america were not even armed with firearms. NYPD officers at one time were armed only with a billy.

I am not, BTW, suggesting we return to that situation.

 

[inherentical]

If you intend for a peace officers arrest powers to continue when off duty, and the states code REQUIRES action of said peace officer if they witness a crime etc (which many do) then you can hardly disarm him when off duty since there really is no such thing as "off duty".

I believe it has been thoroughly established in court that on-duty police officers have no requirement to assist anyone, let alone off-duty police officers. I can't find the ruling, does anyone remember exactly what it was?

 

[The Amigo]

Theres a strange odor here hmmm. Do I smell another cop bashing tread? The way I see it the more good people with guns the better for me.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Here's a blurb from an opinion from the Texas Attorney General....

Peace officers also have a statutory duty “to preserve the peace within the officer’s
jurisdiction.” TEX. CODE GRIM. PROC. ANN. art. 2.13(a)-(b)(l), (4) (Vernon Supp. 2003). Whenever,
in the presence or within the view of a peace officer, “one person is about to commit an offense
against the person or property of another,” it is the officer’s duty to prevent it. Id. art. 6.06. “[A]
police officer’s ‘off-duty’ status is not a limitation upon the discharge of police authority in the presence of criminal activity.”

And from the referenced code:

A. As defined by §2.13, Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, the duties and powers of a peace officer are as follows:

It is the duty of every peace officer to preserve the peace within the officer’s jurisdiction. To effect this purpose, the officer will use all lawful means.


The officer will:
in every case authorized by the Code of Criminal Procedure, interfere without warrant to prevent or suppress crime;
execute all lawful process issued to the officer by any magistrate or court;
give notice to some magistrate of all offenses committed within the officer’s jurisdiction, where the officer has good reason to believe there has been a violation of the penal law; and
arrest offenders without warrant in every case where the officer is authorized by law, in order that they may be taken before the proper magistrate or court and be tried.

Doesn't say anything about on duty, just jurisdiction. Seems to indicate a "duty to act" at least in Texas and that's the way I've always been told it was here.

I'm sure the lawyer types can find argument but every Texas peace officer I personally know believes they have a duty to act if they witness a crime because I've asked them in conversations about this very thing.

I believe it has been thoroughly established in court that on-duty police officers have no requirement to assist anyone

The Supremes said that police are not LIABLE if they fail to protect an individual, I am not sure that's the same thing as saying they don't have a duty to act.

 

[Yosemite**Sam]

Tmpick, To respond to your post. Law enforcement has a general duty to assist. The Supreme Court has ruled that law enforcement has no duty to protect. The Supreme Courts ruling was based on the fact that law enforcement cannot be everywhere all the time.

 

[cpttango30]

disarming anyone is a bad idea. Should they have to get a CCW Yes I think they should. I have to go threw the hassle and I have a lot more time on the range than most of them.

I was lucky in the army m platoon Sargent knew I loved to shoot there for anytime they needed some one from our platoon to go shoot a bs range just to have people qualified on a certain weapon I got sent.

I have more qual badges than I was allowed to wear on my dress uniform.

Police are also at more risk then non-police officers at an given time. They are out there every day directly dealing with the bad guys you want to arm yourself against. So Officer Bill who happens to pull over BadGuy Fred and bust him for drugs then sends him to jail for a few years and then Badguy Fred gets out and goes looking for revenge, this could happen at any time day or night. Leave them alone there job is hard enough.

This was an isolated incident because this young kid could not take the blow his girl dealt him by breaking up with him. If he was that unstable it should have been caught earlier.

 

[No_Warning]

My feeling is that if the cop is "off-duty", he is still not your average joe civilian. They have taken an oath to protect the general public and should not be hindered in that.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Time to drag out our very own accidents.

Laws only stop those not inclided to break them. If you passed a law forbidding cops to carry off duty this freak would have shot six people anyway.

Do any of you guys really think that he would murder six people and really care that the law said he couldn't carry off duty?

To answer the other group of people who think cops should be disarmed when they're done working, here's my response to you.

There is a difference between a cop and a CCW holder. A permit holder carries a firearm sometimes and maybe will help if a crime is committed nearby. He is under no obligation or EXPECTATION to do so. For a permit holder, the idea of stopping crime is, at best, a fleeting thought.

For a police officer (any remotely decent one anyway), the idea of stopping crime is with us all day every day. We are paid to do it and it is usually our full time job. I can't speak for the rest of the cops but I didn't exactly take this job for its astronomical salary. I'm sure I could earn more at a fast food joint and be the spittER instead of the spittEE.

Cops as a whole have a different mentality. We don't exactly like that we get killed here and there but we know it and accept it, more or less, as part of the job.

This idiot in the middle of no-man's-land can't be compared to most of the cops you guys know. He lived in a little hamlet with 2,000 people and most likely never saw anything more serious than a moonshine still. The actual cop mentality can't possibly sink in to someone as young as he was who never actually had to do cop work.

Do not compare him to us. It takes a lot more than a kid holding a badge to impress most cops. He betrayed the badge and the public trust and he'll be despised by cops as well as everyone else. It's the same as that little whining bitch Marine a few years ago that cried about not wanting to go to combat. It is well known that Marines tend to stick together, but don't think for an instant that those of us who served showed anything but contempt for him.

Do you want proof he'll never be viewed as a cop? In six months go to the Police Officer's Memorial in Washington DC and let me know if his name is etched there.

 

[OldTXCop]

That's funny, I wore a badge, and I can't believe this is even in question. The folks who are carrying on about the cops not being able to carry is ridiculous. Yes, cops in texas and most other states are required to act whether on or off duty. Consider this point: cops are in general "targets". You can't live concealing your profession for very long, it will become known. That puts officers and their families in a different situation than most. People will come after you and your family because you put their son, brother, etc... in prison, etc... Been there, know it for a fact.

The problem with the incident in question, was the state's negligence to do adequate testing of candidates, period.

BTW when in american history did cops not carry guns? Most cops in the eastern states used to carry there guns under their uniform coats to protect them from the weather. The appearance was they were only carrying a billy club. Please enlighten me.

 

[arthurcw]

No. They are cops. They have been given special privileges that DO NOT APPLY to the populace at large. This is not a 2nd Amendment augment. They have the privilege to detain a person they suspect of breaking the law. They have the privilege of depriving someone of their freedom in the case of sufficient probably cause. They are civilians but with special privileges grated by the state to carry out special duties assigned by the state. They must be given the tools, at all times, to assist them in those duties.

Yes, you and I should have the right to carry everywhere anytime. So should the cops. However, you and I should not have special privileges that are granted to cops on the use that weapon. A cop can take stronger actions to protect the lives of others with that weapon. They can pursue and shoot someone that is a threat to the general populace. We can’t. Once the threat has left us, we are done. God bless them for the work they do.

The twitch in Wisconsin would have been a twitch with or without a badge. The fact that he had one is unfortunate but has no bearing on what he did or what privileges and responsibilities cop should have. A twitch is a twitch no mater what he wears to work.

The ONLY part his being a cop plays is in showing that cops are not demi-gods that are given a special charism by God to function as perfect tools of the peace. They are human and humans screw up. Some screw up and get reamed out by the boss, get turned down for promotion, or breath a huge sigh of relief that no one saw or got hurt. Some screw up and make the front page.

If someone tries to make pro/anti gun or pro/anti cop fodder out of this, they are not worth your copper or your cast. Because dollars to donuts, they are after one, the other, or both.

 

[Ed Gallop]

Dumb question, obviously intended to flame. Everyone knows cops are only off "scheduled" duty, but are expected to do their duty all the time.

Cops are people, just like every other human, except their life is on the line 24 hours a day to protect the same society that targets them at the slightest hint of wrong doing.

Are they supposed to be perfect humans (oxymoron)? Not in the real world.

Their low paying jobs, extreme stress, and lack of respect and appreciation is not conducive for a cream of the crop to choose from. There is a selection process in most cities that reduce the chance of getting unstable cops but nothing will guarantee a perfect cop.

Sheriff's are normally elected and not screened for stability, neither are their deputies. Some, but very few police officers in comparison to the general public, snap and become dangerous. But when one does... Shame on all cops.

Early in the Iraq war, a soldier blew up a tent full of fellow soldiers with a grenade... Should they take grenades from all soldiers?

Like I said... Dumb question.

 

[syh]

First off, bellyaching about how tough it is for the general population to carry does not mean we should be spoiled brats about it and try to take the ability away from others.

Secondly, LEOs are exposed to a significantly elevated level of risk, because they arrest criminals on a regular basis. Those criminals are then released, and if they run into the man that put them into jail, the officer should be able to protect himself. While the average person runs a risk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they aren't on the "hit list" of a number of criminals.

Taking away the rights of others is no way to try and improve your own situation. It's just selfish and a childish stance to take.

Flame on.

 

[Fletchette]

Yes. That is the general idea of a Free Society - one class of citizens (not two or three with different rights).

I suspect if off-duty cops were subject to the same laws as us lowly civilians that the cops would suddenly start lobbying for concealed carry rights...

 

[ilbob]

BTW when in american history did cops not carry guns? Most cops in the eastern states used to carry there guns under their uniform coats to protect them from the weather. The appearance was they were only carrying a billy club. Please enlighten me.

http://www.nycpolicemuseum.org/html/faq.html#guns

Police Officers have been officially carrying firearms while on duty since 1887

In fact, the NYPD was not even formed until 1845. They had 8 cops then.

And forget about what you learned about the old west on TV and in the movies.

 

[arthurcw]

Yes. That is the general idea of a Free Society - one class of citizens (not two or three with different rights).

Sorry to argue but...

We are all the same class: Citizens. However, we have several citizens that we have, through our elected officials, given special privileges too to perform duties in the society that are reserved to the state. I am not a judge, therefore cannot sentence someone to hard time. I am not a warden so I can not incarcerate them in my attic. I am not a senator so I can't filibuster stupid bills on the forums. I am not a cop so I can't pull over a guy I suspect of DUI.

This is not a freeper nightmare like No-knocks or the Patriot Act. This is a Civi given extra latitude within the confines of the powers that we have granted to the state to protect himself and others. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Chicken-Farmer]

This incident just goes to show that there are crazy people everywhere. Just because you choose one profession over another doesn't make you immune to being a psychopath. Society trusted him to protect us and he betrayed us!
Just like i should have the right the protect myself, off duty police officers should as well. Don't let one crazy idiot sway your choice. That is the classic anti argument, "see, we told you that gun ownership is bad, people can't be trusted with guns!"


Chicken-Farmer

 

[Hoppy590]

All police, on duty or off, should be subject to the same gun laws as the rest of us. if that means they are disarmed, or our rights are restored, atleast wed be all on the same level again

 

[Owen Sparks]

Fletchette said:
I suspect if off-duty cops were subject to the same laws as us lowly civilians that the cops would suddenly start lobbying for concealed carry rights...
________________________________________________________________

BINGO! That is the response I was looking for.

I am the original poster and I certainly think off duty police should have the right to be armed at all times. But I also think law abiding citizens should have the same right. Just like it says in the constitution. No group should be punished for the actions of one lone nut case.

_________________________________________________________________
Fletchette said:
I suspect if off-duty cops were subject to the same laws as us lowly civilians that the cops would suddenly start lobbying for concealed carry rights...the same right.
________________________________________________________________

Exactly. I wonder how that might change some attitudes.
In Europe, most police officers must turn in their weapons at the end of their shift. There are people who would like to see that here.

OS

 

[ilbob]

I suspect if off-duty cops were subject to the same laws as us lowly civilians that the cops would suddenly start lobbying for concealed carry rights.

I think gun owners in general have made a big mistake in making any connection at all between LE carry of firearms and non-LE RTKBA.

There is no right involved in LE carry of firearms. It is strictly part of the job. The fact that LE gets a nice perk is a seperate issue.

 

[Jamie C.]

I suspect if off-duty cops were subject to the same laws as us lowly civilians that the cops would suddenly start lobbying for concealed carry rights...the same right.

I don't know where people are getting the idea that off-duty cops aren't subject to the same laws as everybody else... maybe in other states it's true, but here in TN it's not.

Police aren't allowed to carry guns on school grounds unless they are in uniform and performing their duty. In other words, they have to be there on official business. Otherwise, they get to leave 'em in the car just like everybody else.

Off-duty police don't get to carry in places that serve alcohol.

And they don't get to carry in any of the other places that carry permit holders do. ( State parks, public rec areas, etc. )

So how are they not subject to the same laws?

As for requiring them to get a permit... they already spent 6 to 10 weeks of intensive training, and have to complete 40 hours of training a year to keep their "carry permit"... their commission card.
How'd you like to have that as a standard for keeping your carry permit.

Oh, and one other thing... most of the officers I worked with already had a Tn carry permit too. Most said they got it because they realized that they might not always be a cop.

Anyway, at least here in Tennessee, I don't see what anybody's got to fuss about. The laws apply to everybody.



J.C.

 

[Sistema1927]

Should off duty cops be subject to the same gun laws as the rest of us?

Yes, absolutely yes.

However, my idea of "the same gun laws as the rest of us" means that NONE of us should have our right to keep and bear arms infringed in any fashion whatsoever. All of us have the God given right to self-defense.

 

[FilJos]

I agree that general carry rights have been infringed and should be restored to the people. Concerning the topic of the thread though, I believe in MN all LEOs are never considered to be off-duty. They have a duty to act in certain situations. Also, you have to consider the dangers of the job. Sure, somebody is going to reply to this with something snarky like "It's all in a days work" or "my job is dangerous too" but have you ever actually had someone threaten your life and mean it? Ever have someone tell you that they will kill you when you get off work because they know when and where you exit the station and where you park your car? Ever have someone accost you in public while you are with your family and try to start a fight with you because you encountered them while doing your job the night before?

I'm glad that the mods here are promoting the high road now. I used to get pretty sick of the cop bashing, and I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into that.

 

[Nitrogen]

I think ON duty cops should be subject to the same rules as regular "citizens".

 

[RKBABob]

Absolutely! Of course cops should be subject to the laws, the SAME laws, ALL LAWS, that other citizens are!

Why wouldn't we want police and former police to be able to pass a simple background check every 5 years (in my state), and basic competency exams (in some states)? Could this actually do any harm?

...but cops make enemies every time they make an arrest... so do the citizens who call the police, the witness who testify in court, the judge at the trial, the members of the jury, the prosecuter, the defence attorney who lost the case, and the bailiff in the corner of the room. Don't these people have an equal right to protect themselves?



Also, 3 or 4 posters mentioned how little officers are paid. I really don't know how things are in your neck of the woods, but around here full time officers are paid quite well. Besides, I consider MYSELF underpaid and overworked... but I'm still subject to the same laws as everyone else. I'm sure I've p!55ed off a few people along the way, too.

 

[RKBABob]

Double post.... Sorry!