Should off duty cops be subject to the same gun laws as the rest of us?

[Reyn]

Every shooting involving officers here has always gone to the grandjury.They were also given days off. Ive also transported a citizen to investigations right after a shooting where he killed his neighbor in the yard. He was not charged and let go.It was no billed too.

I believe LEOs are scrutinized more in a shooting because people quest why officers didnt use the tazer,bean bags or employ other less lethal techniques as opposed to lethal force.

 

[Soybomb]

After what happened in Wisconsin there is sure to be talk of stoping off duty police from from going about armed. Any thoughts on this?

During the same weekend an off duty police officer in New York shot a crazy man who was running down the street stabbing people. The principle of both being subject to the same laws is great, I won't argue that. For practical purposes though I want to get more people carrying concealed guns. Spending my time trying to take that right away from other good guys is just a waste when I could be using that time to fight to increase carry privileges for everyone.

 

[Glockman17366]

Any law...any law...that's passed should have no exemptions for government (Federal, State or Local) or government employees...

Obviously, in the Wisconsin incident, the perp would have been charged with multiple crimes if he had survived.

However, in any gun laws that exempt the state police or feds (such as the Assault Rifle Bans)...well, you know where I'm going there.

 

[rc109a]

The question on whether or not a law enforcement officer (LE) should carry off duty needs to be looked at differently by every state. Most departments define their conduct in their policy and procedure manual. I know our state that deputies are full time officers and are never really considered off duty. They are obligated to act if we see the comission of a crime that would normally constitue a full arrest. With that in mind you have to carry your firearm when ever your off duty (exceptions are noted such as drinking, events that a firearm would be considered unsafe like playing sports, and others). Now with that being said in our society if something happens and an off duty LE does not act then what is the first thing that happens afterwards? You sue them for not doing their duty. It is like living in a fish bowl. Everyone seems to know who you are even when you in plain clothes. They see you with your family and kids. I don't know how many times I was approached and addressed as Deputy when I was "off duty" with my children around. Some of these guys I was awaiting trials for man slaughter or serious drug related crimes. That is a scary though with your little 2 year old daughter under your arm. LE deal with some of the worst people in society and put their lives on the line for pennies a day. The least we can do is let them protect themselves when they are with their family. If your not an LE then you can protect yourselves as well by following the appropriate rules and regulations. By the way LE's are not exempt from the laws. These laws address law enforcement officers when you read them. They are never "exempt". They to have laws that follow and must be obeyed. You can only lead by example and from the front, never by following in the rear and complaining about it!

 

[RKBABob]

LE deal with some of the worst people in society and put their lives on the line for pennies a day.

WOW! Your job sucks! Just pennies a day, eh?



Actually, I gotta say thank you to all the LEO's out there... you ARE appreciated... and nobody here would think of taking away your tools-of-the-job.







But enough with the attitude about pay! I am also underpaid, work way too many hours, and deal with bottom-of-the-barrel folks, but you don't hear me complaining about it for the whole internet to read. Oops... I guess I just did!

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

How is that any different from the witness at their trial stepping into the same men's room?

Hmm, what are the odds? How many trials do you testify in vs how many criminals and officer arrests in say a given month.

I'm not saying that we ALL shouldn't be armed, I'm addressing the current situation as it is here in CA today, which is abysmal.

 

[RKBABob]

How many trials do you testify in

Maybe 2 a year. Workers comp fraud cases. People could get pretty angry when they lose the $$$ they were hoping to get by faking an injury.

It made me a little nervous when a private investigator followed Mr. Sleazy Fake-Injury to a store that sells only fishing gear, camping supplies, and guns. He doesn't fish or camp

I see your point. Cops have a lot more exposure the the lowest elements of society, and I don't think I would want to be in that situation.



A SIDE NOTE: I noticed that quite a few police officers in this city live 45 minutes away, out in the boonies. I never gave it much thought... but I wonder if they're distancing themselves from the physical location of their work to 1.) Avoid bumping into the guy they arrested last Tuesday, and
2.) to avoid getting called in on their days off.

 

[theocguy85]

Why should an officer of the law, who is trusted with weapons for 8 or 10 or 12 hours in a day, be deprived of those weapons when he clocks out? Two points here: Number one: LEOs may be called upon at any time to act in the capacity of a LEO; that is, just because they are "off duty" does not mean they can ignore a situation they would act in if they were "on duty." Number two: LEOs are far more likely to face violent attack or other threat than most members of society as they are the public face that the criminal element sees. LEOs should never be deprived of their means of self defense. (Not that any of us should.)

 

[Yosemite**Sam]

For you belly achers that want carry rights equal to police officers; Why don't you do something about it?

Start lobbying for your gun rights. Go through a police academy. Become a regular or reserve officer. It's easy to see by some of the attitudes here some of you have tried to join the force and have been turned down. Don't be Haters. It's easy to sit in your chair and complain. How much have you done to lobby for your rights?

 

[Bill St. Clair]

Anything you have to lobby for or get training for isn't a right. It's a privelege. It can be given and taken away at the whim of a legislator or bureaucrat. We have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, without infringements of any kind. We don't need any kind of legislation. We merely need to CLAIM our rights, and be willing to back up that claim with whatever force is necessary.

 

[ilbob]

For you belly achers that want carry rights equal to police officers; Why don't you do something about it?

Start lobbying for your gun rights. Go through a police academy. Become a regular or reserve officer. It's easy to see by some of the attitudes here some of you have tried to join the force and have been turned down. Don't be Haters. It's easy to sit in your chair and complain. How much have you done to lobby for your rights?

typical elitist sentiment. you can only have rights if you are part of our little group.

in case you have not figured it out, being a cop is not a right, nor is anything cops do that is associated with being a cop a right.

 

[MinnMooney]

Slightly different rules for different responsibilities.

Off-duty LEOs need to have their weapons on them at ALL times. I can't carry in schools, jails (OR jail premises) or anywhere that someone decides to put up a sign prohibiting the carrying of weapons. Off-duty LEOs need to carry in those places, also. Can you imagine what would be said if there was a deliberate, timed set of killings like Columbine and an off-duty LEO was there visiting but didn't have his weapon due to having to abide by the same rules as the general populace? There'd be hell to pay by the law enforcement community.

 

[Jamie C.]

Can you imagine what would be said if there was a deliberate, timed set of killings like Columbine and an off-duty LEO was there visiting but didn't have his weapon due to having to abide by the same rules as the general populace?

If that were to happen here in TN, I'd imagine there would shortly be a change in the laws which would allow all L.E.O.s to carry on school grounds whether they were on the clock or not.

I doubt very seriously if there would be any changes to the laws regarding permit holders, however.

Now, I realize that sucks, but that's just the way the public and legislative mind seems to work.



J.C.

 

[ilbob]

Can you imagine what would be said if there was a deliberate, timed set of killings like Columbine and an off-duty LEO was there visiting but didn't have his weapon due to having to abide by the same rules as the general populace?

A few years ago at a minor league base ball game in Rockford, off duty cop (Park District IIRC) sees abother cop in some kind of altercation with a patron. Off duty cop leaves stadium to go to car and get badge and gun. By the time he gets back, on duty cop has been body slammed to ground and is seriously injured.

Not sure what that proves in any case. Off duty cop not allowed to carry while drinking, so leaves badge and gun in car. Moral of story maybe either off duty cop not drink at baseball game, or change rules to allow cops to drink and carry. Or maybe moral of story is stuff happens, and nothing you can do to prevent every bad thing that might happen.

 

[Fletchette]

Can you imagine what would be said if there was a deliberate, timed set of killings like Columbine and an off-duty LEO was there visiting but didn't have his weapon due to having to abide by the same rules as the general populace?

Can you imagine what would be said if there was a deliberate, timed set of killings like Columbine and an [citizen] was there visiting but [had] his weapon due to having to abide by the same rules as the [police]?

 

[WayneConrad]

For you belly achers...

Name calling?

Start lobbying for your gun rights.

That's a common refrain among law officers, and generally a good idea. Tell you what, though. When LEO organizations stop lobbying for some men to be subject to different law than other men, I'll be more impressed with law officers expressing that sentiment. Don't like me blaming LEOs for what their professional organizations do on their behalf? Then LEOs should pressure the organizations representing them to do the right thing. Until then, don't claim that LEOs want all men to have the same laws. As a group, they want, and lobby for, separate laws for themselves while lobbying against laws restoring the rights of the common man.

Go through a police academy.

Gotta join your club to exercise my rights?

How much have you done to lobby for your rights?

If I haven't done much to lobby for my rights, does that make the active suppression of those rights alright?

It's a popular sentiment that those who don't lobby/vote/contribute/whatever have no right to complain. That's nonsense. Where does this rule come from, and who benefits from it? Not those whose rights are being suppressed.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

And it seems to be popular sentiment on this thread that if you can't have something, no one should. Why can't you people just be glad there are more good guys out there armed more often? How about not tearing them down, and instead work to bring yourself up. But no, that would involve real work. More than most armchair commandos are willing to put in.

 

[Fletchette]

And it seems to be popular sentiment on this thread that if you can't have something, no one should. Why can't you people just be glad there are more good guys out there armed more often? How about not tearing them down, and instead work to bring yourself up. But no, that would involve real work. More than most armchair commandos are willing to put in.

Hmm. Could it be a desire for equal rights? nah...

As for "the good guys": It is a sweeping generality to say that they are "good guys".

Some police officers are good, some are bad. They are people. People tend to become drunk with power when they have exclusive power to do something. That is why the Founders bent over backward to say, over and over again, that everyone should have equal rights, including the police. They do not deserve to have any more rights than any other people.

 

[WayneConrad]

How about not tearing them down, and instead work to bring yourself up.

We do. Guess who fights us? This post is a summary of the LEO opposition that civil rights activists in Arizona saw to just one bill that would extend to citizens a right to carry currently only enjoyed by LEO. This is not an isolated incident in this Arizona, nor is it unique to this state.

 

[Powderman]

Well, this thread simply demonstrates what I have observed about this forum: A lot of the members of this board either hate us totally, or are so scared that they give knee jerk reactions, same as the anti-gunners.

To address the salient points:

1. We, as cops, are subject to exactly the same laws as the rest of the citizens of our Nation, and our specific jurisdictions. I live in Washington State. I can own the same firearms that everyone else can. According to the RCW, I can NOT own fully automatic firearms--same as anyone else in Washington State.

The weapons that we have at the station that are full auto are Department owned. Now, I admit, that we, as LEO CAN buy full auto--however, it has to be purchased under Department letterhead. If we ever leave the Department, WE CANNOT TAKE IT WITH US. It MUST be surrendered, with or without compensation.

2. There are some people who are actually whining--"you knew the risks of the job, so do it and shut up or quit".

Folks, we KNOW what the hazards of the job are. And we stay in it. Why? Because we are a group of men and women who put the safety and welfare of the public before our own.

As another poster mentioned, there have been plenty of threads where some of the posters from this very thread have said that they would NOT assist if a violent crime occurred in their presence. Hey, it's your right and your privilege. Just remember that while you are running AWAY from trouble, I'm running TOWARD it.

3. Yes, we carry at all times. I carry a Colt, a pair of handcuffs, two magazines of RA45T, and my shield and commission card. I also have a CCW permit issued by the State of Washington.

Non-LEO can carry if they wish--it costs about 60 bucks, and takes a couple of weeks.

If you live in a State that does not recognize your right to carry, then I submit the same argument that you give when we mention the inherent danger of our jobs--if you don't like it, MOVE. Quit whining about how unfair your State is. Get out, or be quiet and take it.

4. Whoever says that we don't have to account for ourselves if we use deadly force is on crack. Get real. Go ask your local prosecutor what happens to a cop who has to shoot.

Sometimes, I get the urge to just ask to be unregistered from this board because of the outright HATE I see toward my chosen avocation. Oh, well. You go ahead and hate, vilify me and my efforts, and those of my brother and sister officers. Call us names if you wish, and hold big protests if you feel like it. Call us unfair, and call us JBT's.

Just remember this--when you get tired and go home to be with your family, or get off and enjoy yourself, one of the people you hate so much--possibly me, if you live in Northeast Tacoma--will be out and about, making sure that you CAN enjoy yourselves--and ready in an instant to pledge our health, our futures and our lives to ensure it.

If you can stomach it--and I know that some of you CAN'T--remember this: I have a wife that I miss when I'm on duty, too. I have a home that I want to go to, as well.

So, if you can bring yourself to stoop so low, next time you see a patrol car, just force yourself to maybe--just maybe--look beyond that Crown Vic, the uniform and the badge--and see your fellow man or woman, who is just doing what they do best--protecting YOU.

Y'all have a good night.

 

[Yosemite**Sam]

Great Post Powderman !!!

 

[TexasRifleman]

Powderman makes a good post, for him personally, but in the large picture we see Law Enforcement, either directly by officers or through their unions or professional groups, come out against non-LEO concealed carry more than they come out in favor of it. Certainly it varies state by state but overall that is how it plays out.

While probably not the best reaction, it's understandable to want to deny someone something that they want to deny you, in the vein of that whole "do unto others" thing.

The problem with that is it doesn't really do any good for either side.

 

[RPCVYemen]

So, if you can bring yourself to stoop so low, next time you see a patrol car, just force yourself to maybe--just maybe--look beyond that Crown Vic, the uniform and the badge--and see your fellow man or woman, who is just doing what they do best--protecting YOU.

Hear, hear. I am thankful for the job you and other LEOs do. It looks like a hard complex job to me.

I do not understand the antipathy I hear on THR against police officers. I cannot figure out where it's coming from. I uncharitably think it must be coming from a folks that tried to get on the force, but failed the psych tests - but I am sure that's not fair. Well, sorta sure.

I think there must be a lot of folks who think that being a police officer means running around with your Uzi shooting bad guys all day - and that's the job they want, and get get. My guess is that most folks think that "police officer" means "plays with guns all day" don't get very far in the application process!

Rest assured. I am very grateful for the job that you do, and I thing most of us on THR feel that way.

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

Just remember that while you are running AWAY from trouble, I'm running TOWARD it.

There is a description in a detective novel by Linda Fairstein set in New York City that describes 9/11 - with the image of people in suits running away from the burning towers, and people in uniforms running towards the burning towers. That's always stuck in my head.

We are grateful.

Mike

 

[Jamie C.]

Guess who fights us?

A bunch of political organizations that no more represent the thoughts and opinions of the average patrol officer than the average senator or congressman does yours or mine.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, Mr. Conrad, but the further you go up the chain of command of any L.E. department, the more it gets to be about politics and power, and the less it is about Law Enforcement.

And I know for a fact that various Sheriff's and Chiefs of Police Associations says many things that most working cops just shake their heads over and absolutely do not agree with.

So don't make the mistake of lumping all cops in with their bosses, who most likely won't even allow the average patrol officer to even speak an opinion that isn't "Department Policy".



J.C.