Shrubs new Gun Bans

[Don Galt]

Recently I've been pointing out that Bush's ATF has expanded the guns banned in this country while Bush has done nothing about it. People said this couldn't have happened becuase they hadn't heard about it.

Well, the situation is worse than I thought. Not only have they banned the legal manufacture of AWB compliant rifles by American companies, they have outright banned a hunk of metal and called it a machine gun!

For details, read Vin Spurwinowiz (sic) article in this weeks (October 27th) Shotgun News. Dunno if its online...

But the ATF is running around illegally confiscating parts kits, and calling them machine guns. No doubt next year they will go before congress and report their success in taking a hundred thousand illegal machine guns (Which are really only parts for semi-auto legal rifles) off the streets.

And what is Bush doing about it?

Nothing, he's too busy endorsing the re-authorization and expansion of the AWB.

 

[Waitone]

I'll decide to get excite only after I read details.

 

[Benjamin]

Is this about how one parts/C&R importer bought a FAL kit from another parts importer and sent it to the ATF ?

 

[Blackhawk]

Don Galt,

Sure you're not Molly Ivins out of drag...?

She loves to make up stuff about GWB, refer to him in demeaning ways, and draw all kinds of baseless conclusions from her delusions.

Maybe you'd better do some typing from that article....

 

[stevelyn]

It's Suprynowicz.

I read the same article too. Looks like the JBTs of the BATFEces haven't been supervised for awhile. They must have gotten lost in the new DHS they were shuffled off to.

 

[Mark Tyson]

they banned the legal manufacture of AWB compliant rifles

Can someone provide more details please?

 

[F4GIB]

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72989It's John Ashcroft and his band of "terrorist" hunters at Justice and anti-gun Ridge at Homeland Security. They see an arab at every gun show. Government always fears gun owners and government always wants to have a complete monopoly on the tools of power. Putting ATF in with these guys was bound to increase their activity, prestigue and power.

America can have security but only at the price of freedom.

That's the advantage of terrorism. The scared victims do it to themselves. Or, in this case, Washington does it to us.

Look here for more: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72989

 

[SIGarmed]

America can have security but only at the price of freedom.

Well I have to disagree as its not really security. Its called tyranny. We are the security when we have freedom.

 

[JohnBT]

Shrub?

My momma told me to show some manners if I expected to be taken seriously.

JBT

 

[Preacherman]

Guys, I think there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in this thread. The facts are available to anyone who cares to search for them. As I recall (not having the documentation in front of me), the story goes something like this:

1. A large consignment (perhaps multiple consignments) of FAL receiver kits were imported, which were saw-cut in one place, rather than torch-cut in three places as per ATF regulations. The saw-cut also left the full-auto-capable trigger mechanism in at least a repairable condition, if not actually untouched in some cases.

2. The ATF approved the import of these improperly-cut receivers, despite this being against their own regulations. So, this "crisis" is initially laid to their charge for not doing their job properly - although ATF guys I know have claimed that they were not informed that these receivers were improperly cut. My response is that someone should have inspected them...

3. Having suddenly woken up to the fact that there were oodles of full-auto-capable receivers in repairable condition floating around the USA, the ATF jumped all over the importers concerned, including siezing all the receivers they could find and laying charges against the executives concerned. This is still to come to trial, but I suspect it may backfire heavily on the ATF - after all, they approved the importation of these receivers, so how can they now accuse someone of illegally owning machine-guns?

4. The ATF is also attempting to trace and recover all of these full-auto-capable receivers that were sold to dealers/gunsmiths, and through them to their retail customers. This is to prevent a full-auto-capable receiver from being converted into an actual (and illegal) full-auto weapon.

I really don't see any attempt by the Bush administration or the ATF to ban additional weapons or models of weapons in this whole situation. I think the ATF screwed up big-time, and is now attempting to cover its own backside (in true bureaucratic tradition) by charging the importers (and I don't think this will result in a conviction), and is also attempting to recover all of the illegal receiver kits that were imported. Sorry, but to claim that this is an "additional gun ban" is just plain silly.

 

[Blackhawk]

Thanks for the post, Preacherman. Adds a bit of sanity to the smoke and mirrors gambit....

 

[Don Gwinn]

Don't see how they plan to pull off criminal charges. All the rules about how many cuts have to be made and which parts are actually guns are BATF policy, not law, as far as I know. I'm sure it's a violation of law to disobey those BATF policies, but I'll bet that BATF approval trumps BATF policy.

 

[Blackhawk]

IF they had a BATF form or letter approving the receivers, it, at best, would be a defemse to prosecution if charges were brought. However, since BATF regulations, laws, whatever, have to be published, the importers had notice that the receivers were illegal. Any screwup by any BATF agents doesn't change that.

It's kinda like getting tax advice from the IRS hotline. It's often wrong, and you may get a chance to explain to a judge why you filed a fraudulent tax return. Just because you relied in good faith on seemingly competent advice from the IRS doesn't absolve you of criminal responsibility for violating black letter law.

 

[Don Galt]

Except preacherman is talking about a completely different area where the BATFE has gone out of control.

The importation of legal demilled parts kits was changed in 2001 under Bush's watch (and with his approval, or he's done nothing about it) to restrict said parts (specifically barrels) from being assembled on new recievers in to new AWB complaint weapons.

Anyone in the kit building area who's up to date on the law knows this -- it has affected people assembling FALs and AKs that I know of, and others as well.

This is a new ban on these types of weapons-- it has essentially extended the AWB to cover weapons that would otherwise be legal under the AWB.

It amazes me how unwilling you guys are to believe that Bush is a gun grabber, despite all his statements to the contrary, and despite the actions of the ATF under his watch.

And most specifically, after 9/11 when he was using the tragedy to pass his agenda, he could have undone a lot of gun bans with a public speech that americans need to be prepared to defend themselves from terrorism, and introduced legislation to allow just that.

Calling me Molly Ivans just shows you are trapped in teh dichotomy of choosing between the republican brand of socialism and the Democrat one. Which is consistant with a refusal to believe Bush has done what he has done. Don't take my word for it- - go read Shotgun news and look at all the parts kits labled "Cannot be used to assemble" or "Pre-ban! WE imported these before BUSH made it illegal to assemble rifles from parts kits!" or some such language.

You may not be into parts kits-- I'm not-- but this is where most AKs and FALs in this country come from... since there is a massive supply of surplus parts from around the world.

 

[Don Galt]

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71555

This thread includes the image from the FAIR TRADE Group that discusses the issue.

Individuals are not barred from assembling rifles from the parts (according to those net lawyers) but importers and FFLs are.

The ATF froze all imports in July 2000, but in April 2001 (after Bush had taken office) allowed them again with the new restriction.

Nothing has been done about it since.

Bush apologists will say he's not responsible (So will they let Clinton off the hook too, for the things done under his watch?) but in my opinon, the buck stops there.

Lord knows, Bush, or those who read his mail, are well aware of this situation-- as it is hurting american firearms manufacturers and importers.

And now, well into Bush's tenure, the ATF is siezing PERFECTLY LEGAL parts and claiming they can be assembled into machine guns (which is true of all the trees in my back yard-- each one is dozens of machine guns if you machine enough metal parts and cut them into buttstocks!)

The ATF is clearly the agency most responsible for this... but they have clearly not gotten better under Bush, and the ban on "non sporting" rifles has been widened.

 

[Don Galt]

Hmmm... the accusers of smoke and mirrors dissapeared after I posted the letter from the trade group.

And I'm not buying the argument that this was done to help domestic manufacturers... that doesn't let him off the hook.

He extended the gun bans, illegally.

 

[alan]

I read the article in a recent issue of Shotgun News, and the general drift that I get therefrom is as follows.

Typical BATF operation,

1. Screw the pooch.
2. Obfuscate, to the greatesyt extent possible.
3. Confiscate the hell out of everything in sight.

Seems "fortunate" that the JBTs, a term originated by Congressman John D. Dingell, Democrat of Michigan, haven't shot anyone re this matter. Remember Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Kenyon Ballew to name just three instances of armed clerks having run wild?

 

[Open Carry]

I, too, have come to the conclusion that Bush is a closet gun-grabber. Why hasn't he replaced Clinton bureacrats? Anyone see Gore on C-SPAN yesterday bemoaning our diminishing freedoms under Bush? What is wrong with that picture !?!

 

[Obiwan]

Anyone that thinks GWB or any President is intimately involved in every act of every govt agency is seriously deluded.

The mere fact that you feel compelled to point the finger at the President and not at the BATF shows your bias pretty clearly

And I am not certain anyone reads his mail if is starts with Dear president Shrub

 

[Don Galt]

I don't understand how we're not supposed to point the finger at the guy who actually wrote the executive order!

And if he isn't the chief of the executive branch, where exactly does the buck stop?

I assume you also give clinton a pass for Waco because it was Janet Reno's balliwick and he just can't be expected to be involved in everything that goes on in the administration?

I think you're biased, you give bush a pass, but I doubht you would for clinton.

I see them both for what they are-- gun grabbers. Anti-constitutionalists. (On that score, Bush took pen in hand and signed laws that violate the constitution-- a half dozen of them at least.)

I'm certain he knows of this because you don't ban guns without getting letters.

Oh, and he's on the record as supporting the Assault Weapons Ban. That wasn't a flunky, he said it with his own mouth.

Was someone else pulling his strings at the time?

 

[rock jock]

Saying Bush is responsible for this is liking saying he is also responsible for every question on the national educational tests.

I gotta hand it to Dubya, I mean he is able to personally oversee each and every one of the hundreds of thousands of federal employees every single day. Amazing!

Of course, he is from Texas.

 

[alan]

Re the foregoing, the following comes to mind. Is the president the boss? If he is, then he IS ultimately responsible. If he isn't, then who is, perhaps some political appointee, o.k. but who made the appointment?

Re the executive order mentioned, which order, and whose? Has "W" issued any executive orders re firearms? I don't recall. Otherwise, his "pro-gun credentials" if one could so describe them, are questionable as hell, and I don't care where he comes from. Remember that Houston congress critter George H.W. Bush, who was the only congress critter from Texas that voted FOR GCA'68? Lloyd Bentsen got to be U.S. senator, in large part, due to that vote by Bush the elder. Anyone want to correct me on that?

How far does anyone really think that "W" fell from the anti-gun elitist tree? How bad Gore would have/might have been is another matter entirely. Bush is quite possibly the worst sort of enemy, he who poses as a friend. Put in other terms, You have a Roumanian for a friend, don't worry about enemies.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I don't understand how we're not supposed to point the finger at the guy who actually wrote the executive order!

All unclassified executive orders are online.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/

You show me the executive order that Bush made that restricts gun rights in any way on this subject or any other and I'll do my best to hold his feet to the fire.

In the meantime, you are a lot quicker with accusations than you have been with facts to back them up. Perhaps rather than bias against your political issues, the problem is that you are insufficiently supporting some rather serious allegations (i.e. this thread).

 

[Obiwan]

So far, GWB has not relied on your definition of the word "is"

So he has Clinton beat all to heck!

 

[tyme]

Hmm. If you point the finger at Bush, his political allies will claim he has no knowledge. Nevermind that he's left in place EOs which regulate small arms but which were passed by former presidents. Nevermind that he has publicly announced support for the AWB. Nevermind that all the evidence suggests that even if he were aware of abuses he wouldn't be riding his segway through the halls of the BATF tearing up every piece of paper he saw detailing policy. But if you instead choose to point the finger at the BATFE, you're insensitive because invariably someone is friends with this really great BATFE agent who has 2.3 kids and a picket fence and a dog named Rover, and who isn't personally involved in any explicit threat of force. If nobody happens to be friends with such an agent, one is imagined to exist for the sake of argument. And if you were to treat this imaginary (or not) BATFE agent with no respect, you'd hear the cry... or "He never personally injured you," or "Think of the 2.3 children!"