rangerruck
Member
marlin mod 60 or sks for a little more bite.
SHTF loaner gun for inexperienced people
- Thread starter Tokugawa
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Zen21Tao
Member
Most of my friends own guns. The few that don't aren't anti gun they just value other things more. With that said, if a SHTF situation arose and there was time to prepare I would encourage them to buy a Remington 870s, SKSs, Cetme, AK, Mini 14/30 or perhaps a hi-point 9mm carbine. If there wasn't time to prepare then I have an extra AR15 and an HKG3 that I would loan out to them. But, I don't see myself buying any guns specifically to loan out.
chaim
Member
Most of my non-gun owning friends are not without some experience with guns. A couple are ex-military (US and Israeli), some are country boys who grew up hunting, some are ex-gun owners, others have been brought to the range by me.
If it was a bit of a localized riot where I might lend a friend a gun in their home that is one scenario. For the larger scale possibilities I may insist that we all be in one place if they want my guns. At any rate the gun I'd lend would be determined a lot by the person's experience.
Someone with some shooting experience, but not much or not recent, would get something pretty simple. A long gun to make mistakes less likely. Probably a .22lr or pistol caliber carbine so that they are less likely to be spooked by the recoil and blast. Of course a quick refresher on gun safety would be in order as well.
For someone with a lot of recent experience I'd probably be comfortable lending one of my revolvers, though I'm sure they'd want a long gun as well since they are more effective. Depending upon how many people I helped arm I might give them both a revolver and a long gun, but I might make them choose. Even they'd likely get the gun safety refresher too.
For those in between the other two levels of experience I'd go with a shotgun or my SKS (if I'm not using it). They will need a firearm for defensive use anyway and a shotgun is good for defense. A long-gun generally is easier to aim with than a handgun under stress. A rifle or shotgun will be pretty powerful so stopping power is decent. Also, a long gun is less likely to be aimed where it shouldn't be (since the barrel is longer they are more likely to notice if it is facing the wrong direction). They'd definatly be getting a safety refresher as well.
The only people with absolutely zero gun experience I'd consider arming is my mother and brother. They'd get as much instruction as possible then likely a .22 rifle if they seemed able to handle it. My dad grew up a country boy- his family owned guns and he grew up hunting. He'd probably get a shotgun with a safety refresher course.
If it was a bit of a localized riot where I might lend a friend a gun in their home that is one scenario. For the larger scale possibilities I may insist that we all be in one place if they want my guns. At any rate the gun I'd lend would be determined a lot by the person's experience.
Someone with some shooting experience, but not much or not recent, would get something pretty simple. A long gun to make mistakes less likely. Probably a .22lr or pistol caliber carbine so that they are less likely to be spooked by the recoil and blast. Of course a quick refresher on gun safety would be in order as well.
For someone with a lot of recent experience I'd probably be comfortable lending one of my revolvers, though I'm sure they'd want a long gun as well since they are more effective. Depending upon how many people I helped arm I might give them both a revolver and a long gun, but I might make them choose. Even they'd likely get the gun safety refresher too.
For those in between the other two levels of experience I'd go with a shotgun or my SKS (if I'm not using it). They will need a firearm for defensive use anyway and a shotgun is good for defense. A long-gun generally is easier to aim with than a handgun under stress. A rifle or shotgun will be pretty powerful so stopping power is decent. Also, a long gun is less likely to be aimed where it shouldn't be (since the barrel is longer they are more likely to notice if it is facing the wrong direction). They'd definatly be getting a safety refresher as well.
The only people with absolutely zero gun experience I'd consider arming is my mother and brother. They'd get as much instruction as possible then likely a .22 rifle if they seemed able to handle it. My dad grew up a country boy- his family owned guns and he grew up hunting. He'd probably get a shotgun with a safety refresher course.
DunedinDragon
Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
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- 374
I'd follow Kurt Russell's lead but offer them a can of OC spray. I think the potential liabilities involved in letting a novice use one of your guns without qualified direct supervision is WAY too great.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
I wouldn't give any SHTF weaponry to friends, because I don't trust any of them with firearms. They'd probably do more harm than good. I've advocated firearm ownership to many of them time and time again for all the practical reasons. I've taken many to the range. The vast majority are not anti-gun (only a couple), but they are not pro-gun enough to go out and buy. These folks need some fear or threat to cross the line. All I can do is bring them to the door, but they have to walk through. It isn't going to be my job to be some sort of an "arsenal" to hand out firearms to desperate people.
As for "family", the only relatives that I consider family already has plenty of SHTF arms. The rest of them will face the process known as natural selection. A few less anti-gun people never hurt....
Yeah, I know. But I don't care.
***
As for a recommendation for a weapon that would be given to a beginner. I'd rule handguns out. I've seen too many newbies shoot a handgun so badly, that a handgun would be a liability. Long arm would be a must.
For cheap, I'd say SKS. Recoil isn't bad. BUT, new folks always seem to have a lot of confusion and uncertainty with semi-autos. Is it loaded? Is it chambered? So forget that.
Remember, for SHTF - the idea is defense. Defense isn't necessarily blow the targets' chest cavity out with a high powered wonder bullet from an uber-tactical rifle. A good "peppering" from a 20ga should be enough to deter just about anyone. Pump action should be simple enough to use.
Lever action 357. Should take no more than 5 minutes of instruction to teach how these work. Again, dirt simple.
Truth is, short of an all out firefight, for general SHTF, even a single shot rifle or shotgun like a break action would work fine. You could even deter armed attackers with those. Usually, those who prey on others are looking for an easy score. The idea of armed resistance is a major turn-off.
As for "family", the only relatives that I consider family already has plenty of SHTF arms. The rest of them will face the process known as natural selection. A few less anti-gun people never hurt....
Yeah, I know. But I don't care.
***
As for a recommendation for a weapon that would be given to a beginner. I'd rule handguns out. I've seen too many newbies shoot a handgun so badly, that a handgun would be a liability. Long arm would be a must.
For cheap, I'd say SKS. Recoil isn't bad. BUT, new folks always seem to have a lot of confusion and uncertainty with semi-autos. Is it loaded? Is it chambered? So forget that.
Remember, for SHTF - the idea is defense. Defense isn't necessarily blow the targets' chest cavity out with a high powered wonder bullet from an uber-tactical rifle. A good "peppering" from a 20ga should be enough to deter just about anyone. Pump action should be simple enough to use.
Lever action 357. Should take no more than 5 minutes of instruction to teach how these work. Again, dirt simple.
Truth is, short of an all out firefight, for general SHTF, even a single shot rifle or shotgun like a break action would work fine. You could even deter armed attackers with those. Usually, those who prey on others are looking for an easy score. The idea of armed resistance is a major turn-off.
1 old 0311
member
Those $100.00 Hi Points will then be worth $500.00. Pick up a few now. Cash only please
Kevin
Kevin
Travis Lee
Member
There was a time when I planned to have a supply of weapons for a SHTF
emergency to offer my friends....
Some renounced my friendship about the time I bought my second gun....
others did so in the years since, essentially for the same justification.
"I had changed."
Problem solved.
I don't make friends with people who aren't themselves armed anymore.
--Travis--
emergency to offer my friends....
Some renounced my friendship about the time I bought my second gun....
others did so in the years since, essentially for the same justification.
"I had changed."
Problem solved.
I don't make friends with people who aren't themselves armed anymore.
--Travis--
TOADMAN
Member
My close neighbors in and around my housing area have no guns...They know I have guns...If & when the SHTF, a selected few are welcome to bring food and water to my house and I'll teach them how to load magazines..I will not give them a spare gun or two...
Don't Tread On Me
Member
America was born on the concept of the individual. Rest assured, it will end up that way once again.
Around here we have a word for the change your former friends identified in you. We call it "responsibility".
I have a short list of people who get invited into my house, camp or bunker. The list for the people who get guns that don't have them upon entering is even shorter. My policy of never having a firearm I don't have ammunition for hasn't had to pay off yet, but it may someday.
XavierBreath
Member
Having been in this situation, I now fall in with the "give 'em ball bats" crowd.
One thing that will be instantly apparent in a disaster is ammo, especially buckshot, will be scarce as turtle teeth. A day after Katrina, there was no buckshot within 300 miles of New Orleans for sale. No shotgun shells of any type or SD ammo of any type was available as far North as I-20 within three days of the event. It was not taken off the shelves, it was sold out. Thus, attempting to train a person in the proper use of a gun after the disaster will be wasting needed ammunition. The time to learn is beforehand.
If I have a friend who lost his firearms either in the disaster or through confiscation, I would gladly give him one of my extra shotguns with some ammo. I will not waste my ammo trying to train those who would not arm themselves, and I will not loan them a firearm without giving them training. Instead, they get a steak knife and a chunk of 2X4 to whittle into a club. They should have supported the 2nd ammendment and everyone's rights to keep and bear arms before they needed to do so themselves.
One thing that will be instantly apparent in a disaster is ammo, especially buckshot, will be scarce as turtle teeth. A day after Katrina, there was no buckshot within 300 miles of New Orleans for sale. No shotgun shells of any type or SD ammo of any type was available as far North as I-20 within three days of the event. It was not taken off the shelves, it was sold out. Thus, attempting to train a person in the proper use of a gun after the disaster will be wasting needed ammunition. The time to learn is beforehand.
If I have a friend who lost his firearms either in the disaster or through confiscation, I would gladly give him one of my extra shotguns with some ammo. I will not waste my ammo trying to train those who would not arm themselves, and I will not loan them a firearm without giving them training. Instead, they get a steak knife and a chunk of 2X4 to whittle into a club. They should have supported the 2nd ammendment and everyone's rights to keep and bear arms before they needed to do so themselves.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
So true. I have long held that people only care about the rights in which they actually use or think they use, or might lose and bother them.
I agree. Aftermath is NOT the time to be wasting ammo on training. As if there is somewhere to train (unless you live on some large land).
Katrina caused an ammo price increase and shortage even beyond that immediate area.
With the coming storm season, I will remind everyone that doesn't own a gun, but is a friend of mine that they might want to consider a means of effective self defense. That's it. A simple suggestion. Some people need to learn the hard way.
Remington788
Member
Since you say the loaner is for inexperienced people, I'd have to pass on giveing one out for safety reasons. Now, if TSHTF, I have a few weapons that would be better suited for home defense that will be loaned out to certain family members that have firearm knowledge. 5-10 minutes of instruction on that particular firearm will be all they need to be safe and makes them much more effective than if they had to use the bird shotgun or squirrel rifle. These guns range anywhere from an SKS to an AR15, just depends on who it is.
Putting aside that fact that they should already have a gun, I think the SKS makes a good choice. I have a bunch of them so that is probably what I would loan out in a situation like that. A pump 12 is another good choice but I only have three of them so I could only lend two of my friends a shotgun since I would need one for me.
I would not give them any handguns unless they knew how to use it. I think they would be better off with a long gun if they are not good shooters. At least it would be hard to shoot your self with a long gun.
So my choices are SKS or shotgun.
I would not give them any handguns unless they knew how to use it. I think they would be better off with a long gun if they are not good shooters. At least it would be hard to shoot your self with a long gun.
So my choices are SKS or shotgun.
Randy in Arizona
Member
Travis Lee said:
Sad at first glance, but better for you in the long run.
Didn't happen to me only because 1] most of my friends were already gunnuts, 2] not many friends anyway.
By any chance do you live in Taos or Santa Fe?
Fu-man Shoe
Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2005
- Messages
- 199
I like the baseball bat idea, myself.
For select non-gunnie friends I could trust, I'd
say the single shot 20 ga wouldn't be out of
order.
I do think any kind of semiauto would be a much
less than ideal weapon. Manual of arms can be
somewhat complicated, and there is no time to
teach.
For select non-gunnie friends I could trust, I'd
say the single shot 20 ga wouldn't be out of
order.
I do think any kind of semiauto would be a much
less than ideal weapon. Manual of arms can be
somewhat complicated, and there is no time to
teach.
bpisler
Member
The only people i would loan a gun
to have enough of there own.I live
in a very small apt complex with 7
apartments.Half don't speak to me
because i own guns,the others have
shown vey little interest in guns.
The one's that don't talk to me
would be SOL,the others would be
welcome to stay for a while.
to have enough of there own.I live
in a very small apt complex with 7
apartments.Half don't speak to me
because i own guns,the others have
shown vey little interest in guns.
The one's that don't talk to me
would be SOL,the others would be
welcome to stay for a while.
Clipper
Member
Yeah, yeah, yeah...And what happens when I loan a gun that my panic-stricken beneficiary then uses imprudently to shoot some schmuck that didn't present what the legal system would quantify as a threat worthy of deadly force? Guess who's stuff is in the wind for negligence when it is found who OWNED, and is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for that firearm? I wouldn't even want to sell under those panic conditions, since some lawyer would make a case that I should have suspected this person was not going to be properly trained or to have the time or inclination to make themselves aware of their legal responsibilities in such a situation...Nobody has the right to put me on the sharp end of the legal lance but me.
The only way I'd ever loan a gun to a friend in a SHTF situation would be if said friend were a very responsible and safe gun owner, who, through some SHTF misfortune, had lost his guns, i.e., terrible storm, fire, stolen, etc.
I see some here saying they'd hand out cheap semi-auto firearms to non-responsible bliss ninnies. That is as bad an idea as you could have. During the five minute instruction course, are you also going to teach them how to clear a jam or other malfunction?? Waste precious ammo teaching them how to hit the barn door from the INSIDE?? Make all that noise doing it??
Having been a weapons training instructor with a large non-federal peace officer organization, I can assure you that "five minutes" of training is as dangerous as it gets. I've seen police cadets, who were still unsafe with semi-auto pistols, after weeks of training and 3,000 rounds of practice, with hands on instruction from very astute, dedicated instructors.
In a highly stressful situation, it is sheer folly to hand out guns to know-nothings, who previously either hated firearms, or were ambivalent about them. They won't have the faintest idea HOW or WHEN to use them responsibly.
You'll spend a lot more time worrying about if they'll accidentally blow your, or a family member's head off, (Oops! Sorry 'bout dat!) than any benefit it gains you.
Just my take on it. No gun hand outs by this child, I assure you.
L.W.
I see some here saying they'd hand out cheap semi-auto firearms to non-responsible bliss ninnies. That is as bad an idea as you could have. During the five minute instruction course, are you also going to teach them how to clear a jam or other malfunction?? Waste precious ammo teaching them how to hit the barn door from the INSIDE?? Make all that noise doing it??
Having been a weapons training instructor with a large non-federal peace officer organization, I can assure you that "five minutes" of training is as dangerous as it gets. I've seen police cadets, who were still unsafe with semi-auto pistols, after weeks of training and 3,000 rounds of practice, with hands on instruction from very astute, dedicated instructors.
In a highly stressful situation, it is sheer folly to hand out guns to know-nothings, who previously either hated firearms, or were ambivalent about them. They won't have the faintest idea HOW or WHEN to use them responsibly.
You'll spend a lot more time worrying about if they'll accidentally blow your, or a family member's head off, (Oops! Sorry 'bout dat!) than any benefit it gains you.
Just my take on it. No gun hand outs by this child, I assure you.
L.W.
Last edited:
Dave Markowitz
Member
Personally, I won't loan a gun to someone with little to no firearms training. That's like handing car keys to someone who's never been behind the wheel and saying, "Take her for a spin." Aside from the danger to himself and anyone in the immediate vicinity, it's unlikely that such a person would have a clue as to when it would be appropriate to use said weapon. I have a baseball bat or two laying around here he can use.
On the other hand, if one of my gun owning friends or relatives was at my house and TSHTF, and he's without one, then I'll gladly loan him something like my Mini-14, AK or an SKS as I grab my AR-15.
On the other hand, if one of my gun owning friends or relatives was at my house and TSHTF, and he's without one, then I'll gladly loan him something like my Mini-14, AK or an SKS as I grab my AR-15.
I also read this thinking more of family members coming in rather than total strangers. Many of them have occassional firearm experience, usually shotguns, maybe a revolver, or bolt rifle, etc.
It may make more sense to have them trained to keep you reloaded with alternate firearms. Even so, I think it only fair to at least give them something for the worst eventuality (you are killed and they have no other defense except themselves). If they have some experience, then perhaps they could at leats be given lookout, flank watcher, or second/third line defense duties.
The issue is that they may know how to handle a couple of types of firearms under calm conditions. But in a SHTF situation you want to give them something aboslutely no-brainer simple. I believe the simplest and reasonably effective firearm would be a lever action carbine in .357, .44 or .30-30. They don't have to learn about magzines, operating a bolt, etc. The lever action is just very intuitive for most folks. Easy to load, easy to cycle.
i know if my daughters and their families showed up on my doorstep ( I hope they would make it) I would certainly take them in, give them as much safety, tactics and firing training as possible each day, and give them the simplest arms possible.
But I agree with all the other posters that the best strategy is to get as many of your loved ones proficient as possible with reasonable fireamrs long before they are needed. I still think simpler is better and therfore I am helping them get trained and set up with 870s, Marlin .357/.30-30, and Glock 19s at a minimum. Hopefully we can progress to the AR15 and M1 Garand soon. I am not a big clay fan, but it is becoming apparent that this is one of the easiest ways to get newbies proficient with something reasonable for both defense and sport.
It may make more sense to have them trained to keep you reloaded with alternate firearms. Even so, I think it only fair to at least give them something for the worst eventuality (you are killed and they have no other defense except themselves). If they have some experience, then perhaps they could at leats be given lookout, flank watcher, or second/third line defense duties.
The issue is that they may know how to handle a couple of types of firearms under calm conditions. But in a SHTF situation you want to give them something aboslutely no-brainer simple. I believe the simplest and reasonably effective firearm would be a lever action carbine in .357, .44 or .30-30. They don't have to learn about magzines, operating a bolt, etc. The lever action is just very intuitive for most folks. Easy to load, easy to cycle.
i know if my daughters and their families showed up on my doorstep ( I hope they would make it) I would certainly take them in, give them as much safety, tactics and firing training as possible each day, and give them the simplest arms possible.
But I agree with all the other posters that the best strategy is to get as many of your loved ones proficient as possible with reasonable fireamrs long before they are needed. I still think simpler is better and therfore I am helping them get trained and set up with 870s, Marlin .357/.30-30, and Glock 19s at a minimum. Hopefully we can progress to the AR15 and M1 Garand soon. I am not a big clay fan, but it is becoming apparent that this is one of the easiest ways to get newbies proficient with something reasonable for both defense and sport.
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