Slide release vs. racking the slide back

[lions]

The Ruger 22/45 doesn't work with slingshotting.

It does if you take the stupid little detent button out of the slide stop.
But then again, at that point it relies on gravity to work so the pistol has to be vertical. But as you said, it is not a defensive pistol.

 

[1SOW]

Racking the slide to the rear fully compresses the slide spring to feed the round.

This is exactly what the gun does when fired. This will also give the most reliable feed.

Practicing & using the exact same procedure with all your guns will make this an automatic procedure without any decision making involved.

Having said that, I always rack the slide to the rear for the first round feed; but I also do firm mag changes that will release the slide lock and feed a round in my guns. This is the same as using the slide release, but I never use the slide release lever except to put the gun away.
Some day I may be sorry, but for a fast mag change, it can't be beat.

Either way is a shooter preference.

 

[JohnKSa]

This is exactly what the gun does when fired. This will also give the most reliable feed.

I've heard one person claim that high-speed analysis indicates that there's typically a little more force on the forward slide stroke after firing a round than there is when racking the slide.

This is due to the "bounce" of the slide against the stop that results when the gun is fired.

Still, your point is well taken. Of the three possibilities (actual firing, manual racking and using the slide release), using the slide release produces the least amount of forward slide velocity. Racking the slide produces more velocity which should mean more reliable feeding.

I've actually had a gun that got dirty enough (over 1000 rounds fired without cleaning) that it would no longer reliably chamber a round using the slide release method to chamber the first round from the magazine. However it still worked perfectly when the slide was racked manually.

 

[SGW42]

Slide release lever, always. Comes very natural to me. It is what I've done since I started shooting semi-autos. I figured that is what it was there for. I assume by the time it is worn out, quite a few other things will be shot on the pistol too by that time, and I can just replace it.

On some guns when the release is stiff or if I am in a funny mood, I will sling-shot.

Hand-over-slide seems more like a precise control-type move, for when you need to see in the chamber, clear a jam, etc.

 

[David E]

First of all, we need to define our terms:

1) Sling Shotting is pinching the rear of the slide between thumb and forefinger, pulling the slide back to disengage it, then release.

2) The Over Hand method has all four fingers of the support hand grasping the rear of the slide between fingers and palm, thumb facing rearward, pulling back and releasing the slide.

3) The Slide release simply is activated, usually by the support hand thumb following the reload. If done properly, the gun is being pushed back onto the next target while this is happening.

You should know all three. The "Slingshot" method works with .22's, such as the Ruger 22/45, but then, that gun probably isn't relied upon for serious self defense duties by most folks reading this thread. Using the "slingshot" on serious calibers is not a good idea, as it's too easy to slip off the back of the slide entirely, before pulling it back far enough to disengage.

The "Overhand" method has it's adherants and it's good to know. The downsides are, it can inadvertantly activate a slide mounted safety (like on the Beretta 92) causing a very disconcerting too-easy trigger pull followed by silence (except for your screamed expletive) followed by the other guy's shot........ It won't work with some autos, especially 1911's that have had shok-buffs installed. And it's slower than the

Slide stop method. IF your gun has an accessible slidestop, this is the fastest way to get back to shooting. If you're running a Glock with the stock slide stop that is small and flat, then this won't be the best way for you to return the slide to battery. For me, this is easily fixed by installing the Glock extended slide stop, as found on the G-34. I wouldn't want anything bigger.

While it's possible I may have to do a battle-field pickup where the gun in question is a PPK that's already at slidelock and I can access the spare mag, it's very unlikely. What's more likely is that I will have to get my own gun back into action. In which case, it's prudent to know which method works best. If that method is faster, so much the better.

How much faster is using the slidestop than the overhand method?

Good question and one I've been curious about. So yesterday, I decided to find out. The target was a 10 yd IPSC steel target (like paper, only steel) I decided that "C" zone or better would suffice for accuracy. Only "good" runs were used. If I messed up the reload prior to releasing the slide, then it didn't matter how I released the slide.

Overhand method average: 2.07 seconds.

Slide stop release: 1.66 seconds, so for me, about 4/10th's of a second faster.

I can hear some folks saying, "4/10th's isn't very long, those times are almost identical." If you were shooting at someone that is down, but not out and they're also reloading their gun to complete their attempt to kill you........would you still think that?

If we put some more numbers to this, presuming the badguy and you started your reload at the same time and presuming he's equally skilled (which is highly unlikely) your first shot following the reload comes in at 1.66, the second shot at 1.82, the third shot at 1.98.......Three hits should slow down his reload even further....like, forever.

Know all three, but practice the one that works best for you and YOUR gun.

 

[qwertice]

I don't recall posting this...

Security here are taught to always use the slide release control. Theory being there can be a tendency to ride the slide forward if you slingshot it or over hand it, possibly causing the gun to fail to go into battery.

 

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // If you are talking Combat reloading and getting back in the fight IMHO the slide release is faster.

Instead of moving to rack the slide your weak hand goes right to work helping target/steady the firearm. You might also need your weak hand for other things.

The best example I can remember is:
If you are being rushed by multiples during a reload you might need your weak hand to aid a companion, draw another weapon for dual wield, create an obstacle, utilize a flashlight/tool/key or repell an opponent.

I have seen semi-autos without a slide release quickly disabled in classes and movies. is this true of them all? I would see that as a problem with a SD/Combat firearm.

Just MHO no hard won experience with this except classes and practice.

 

[Lar1911]

But how are you reloading one-handed anyway?

Google it (Im at work and cannot post videos) all the schools teach how to reload and get the gun back into action if one hand is out.

I am pretty sure I have seen videos of it at IDPA events.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Theory being there can be a tendency to ride the slide forward if you slingshot it or over hand it.

they're not being taught the correct technique in overhand release. the strong hand drives the gun out of the support hand, the support hand continues rearward to strike the chest...believe me, there is no riding of the slide

If you are being rushed by multiples during a reload you might need your weak hand to aid a companion, draw another weapon for dual wield, create an obstacle, utilize a flashlight/tool/key or repell an opponent. (1)

I have seen semi-autos without a slide release quickly disabled in classes and movies. is this true of them all? I would see that as a problem with a SD/Combat firearm.(2)

(1)
1. if you were being rushed by multiples you would best aid your companion by stopping the rusherswith both hand s on the gun
2. dual wield is a movie only thing...while i love Chow Yun Fat's style (and have actually done it on the range ), it isn't something i'd do for real
3. create...throwing things isn't a great idea either
4. why would you grab another impact weapon when you already have one in your hand? this isn't about wielding a a sword and dagger like a musketeer of even Musashi's dual swords

(2) one must wonder how the lack of a slide stop (it isn't call a release) would disable a gun. i've seen the reverse where a slide stop could disable a gun by becoming engaged during a string of fire...that is why the P7 and Glock have such a low profile one and the Sig line puts theirs so far back

 

[easyg]

If you're reloading a gun after firing it won't the slide already be locked open? In order to rack the slide you're going to have to hit the slide release at some point.

No, even with the slide locked to the rear you will still be able to pull the slide back far enough to release the slide-stop/release lever.
At least on the vast majority of semis.

 

[ArmedBear]

the finer points of trigger control and sight alignment will be hampered in a high-stress situation. Ever wonder why the hit percentage is so abysmally low in LEO shootings?

Honestly, I think it's not that. I suspect that the reason that the hit percentage is so low is that, if someone is trying to kill you, you tend not to slow down, wait, aim, and carefully fire.

I've seen video of fast competition shooters, and almost invariably they shoot more slowly than I would expect. What they do is HIT very consistently, as fast as possible. They don't just SHOOT as fast as possible.

The exception would be fastdraw specialists, but they tend to fire a single shot. Even a freak of nature like Bob Munden might shoot only two quick shots.

The same thing happens to bird hunters. It's the natural human instinct to pull the trigger immediately in a fast-paced, unexpected shooting situation, even when one's life is not being threatened.

Paintball illustrates this. The winner is the guy who hits fastest, not who shoots fastest. The problem is, even paintball doesn't replicate being shot at with real bullets. After a while, your mind knows that, in paintball, you're not really going to be hurt or killed. If someone is shooting a 9mm at you, your mind knows you could be.

 

[lions]

Another consideration may be if the slide fails to lock back on the last round. You may ride the slide stop under stress and inadvertently disable it or it may simply malfunction. The overhand method will chamber a round regardless of these possibilities, whereas using the slide stop would cause you to pause to reassess your course of action. That pause may be momentary and negligible, or it may be much worse, depending on how you train.

 

[gofastman]

I recently took off the extended slide stop from my Glock because it kept getting in the way, now I put a tiny bit of downward pressure on the factory slide stop and firmly insert the magazine, works like a charm.

My PF9 gets sling shotted.

All guns get a tiny dot of extreme pressure grease where the stop contacts the slide.

 

[bigfatdave]

All guns get a tiny dot of extreme pressure grease where the stop contacts the slide.

That's not a bad idea, I get lube in there while I grease the rails, myself ... I may make a point of it now, though, with one-handed backup plans in mind.

The slide latch isn't a sear, it just isn't designed to take the sliding/shearing motion over and over in most guns. Over-use of the slide latch as a slide release will over time decrease the ability of the gun to lock open on an empty mag, and can cause it to allow the slide to release if a magazine is inserted forcefully (some people think this is a feature, and it would be if it were 100% reliable) or when the gun is jarred.
So there's your mechanical reliability aspect of why racking is superior to using the latch.

The slide latch is in a different place on different guns (and sometimes isn't external or just doesn't exist), however the slide is in the same place on just about every autoloader designed for more than target work, and works the same way ... when the gun doesn't go shooty any more, yank the slide back to eject the empty and chamber a fresh round, if that doesn't do the job try a fresh mag and then yank the slide back. An empty magazine is a malfunction, of a sort, and you can drill in a simple sequence that works on just about any gun with practice and ingraining into muscle memory. You should be able to pick up just about any autopistol and run it the same way you can get into any car and drive it.
So there's the malfunction reason why racking is superior to using the latch.

The slide latch is a small piece of the gun for a reason, to prevent snags into or out of the holster and reduce the possibility that it will be accidentally lifted while firing. Finding it under stress may be harder than you think, I imagine most people here have never found themselves "reduced to their level of training" and imagine they will "rise to do their best" in an emergency. While I've been in less than one real gunfight, I've been in my share of hairy situations with someone's (sometimes MY) life on the line ... guess what, I was reduced to my level of training most of the time, with a few creative moments of inspiration here and there. And I'm not prone to panic, either.
So there's the training reason why using a gross motor skill (yank and release) is better than using a fine motor skill (find latch, push down, get back on target) ... feel free to add a bigger latch if you like, but I prefer my range guns to match my carry guns.

 

[Cards81fan]

If you're reloading a gun after firing it won't the slide already be locked open? In order to rack the slide you're going to have to hit the slide release at some point.

No, as the slide release on my XD has a bias (meaning, is sprung for) the unlocked position, unless pushed up be me, or the empty magazine's follower.

Once I remove the empty and insert a loaded magazine, and pull back on the slide, the slide stop/release goes back to its natural (unlocked) position, allowing the slide to go forward and chamber a round.

That said, I usually use the lever on my XD, as it is easier for me, the gun is a beater (so not worried about wear), and I know it reliably chambers a round. I use it on my LCP as well, as it will not always come to battery if done by hand (the Kahr riding-the-slide issue no doubt). My Colt Series 70... well I rack the slide as that is my safe queen for now

 

[David E]

Another consideration may be if the slide fails to lock back on the last round.

It happens. But you're leaving out the rest of the story: You attempt to fire one more shot and get a "click" instead of a "bang." Usual protocol would have you "tap, rack, bang," which might lock the slide at the "rack" step. Do your reolad and drop the slide via the slide stop.

Or, the slide goes forward for some reason and you get another "click." At that point, common sense tells you that you're empty. Do your reload and use the OVERHAND method (not the less reliable "slingshot" method) to fully reciprocate the slide.

It's wise to know all three methods, with emphasis on "Slide stop" and "Overhand."

 

[bigfatdave]

David E:
If you have a failure to lock open on an empty mag and confuse it with a malfunction, TRB is in order. A failure of TRB takes you to an automatic mag dump, rack, fresh mag, rack, shoot.
If you have a failure of two rounds in the same mag, the same applies, dump it and load fresh!

I'm more concerned with the speed I can produce a fresh magazine than how fast I can drop a slide from lock ... honestly my extra CC mags are carried for comfort and balance, not tactical response.

Here's a great video showing various malfunctions and clearing them, you'll notice that the overhand method is used pretty much every time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug
My only disagreement with that video is that a magazine that has given me two malfunctions is going on the ground if I have a replacement ... I'll come back for it if I get the chance.

 

[mljdeckard]

If you don't know how to reload with one hand, you need to learn.

You need to know how to load, rack, clear, and clear a malfunction with either hand by itself, and you need to practice it too. These are not things that are 'nice' to know. They are CRITICAL to know.

If you want an example of how to do this, (I missed it for years but now I know what I was seeing,) watch Beverly Hills Cop. Wounded shooter, emergency reload with the weak hand.

 

[David E]

If you have a failure to lock open on an empty mag and confuse it with a malfunction, TRB is in order. A failure of TRB takes you to an automatic mag dump, rack, fresh mag, rack, shoot. If you have a failure of two rounds in the same mag, the same applies, dump it and load fresh!

Isn't that pretty much what I said? If you're counting your rounds (not something I recommend in a gunfight) and you KNOW your chamber is empty, start your reload and use the overhand method. The slide is forward and you have no choice but to rack it manually. Overhand beats slingshot.

I'm more concerned with the speed I can produce a fresh magazine than how fast I can drop a slide from lock ...

This can be a concern, for sure. Too many people don't carry a reload at all, or they "carry" it in their car or briefcase. Those that carry one on their person often just drop it in their pocket. None of these methods are very fast or sure or consistent. How you get the gun chambered certainly would be pretty far down the list and would come after blowing out the lint that accumulated from pocket carry before inserting the mag.

honestly my extra CC mags are carried for comfort and balance, not tactical response.

Same here. While I don't expect a gunfight to require me to do an emergency reload to finish.... I'm aware of more than one where it was required.

 

[ArmedBear]

I can hear some folks saying, "4/10th's isn't very long, those times are almost identical." If you were shooting at someone that is down, but not out and they're also reloading their gun to complete their attempt to kill you........would you still think that?

Winning cowboy fastdraw times are in the 0.3's. That means a beeper goes off, the contestants, starting without touching the gun, draw and cock antiquated single-action revolvers one-handed, and hit a 24" steel plate at 7 yards, all within under 0.4 seconds. They aren't allowed movie-style quickdraw holsters, either. They have to be belt-height. And for a shot to count, it must hit the target.

Sure, these are very skilled, practiced competitors, not street criminals. Still, 0.4 seconds is actually a longer time than it sounds, when someone is trying to shoot you. With a modern weapon like a Glock, that's already in an attacker's hand, not in a holster, and doesn't have to be cocked, 0.4 seconds is a very long time, and it's plenty of time for you to be shot or stabbed to death, or simply overpowered by someone much larger than you are. 0.4 seconds can easily be the difference between life and death.

 

[David E]

I always rack the slide as my small thumbs canot reach the slide release on some of my pistolas.

If you're right handed, use your left thumb immediately after seating the fresh mag. You'll discover your thumb is almost on top of it already, anyway.

 

[David E]

0.4 seconds can easily be the difference between life and death.

Agreed. If I complete my reload at 1.65 by firing a shot on target, that sequence would go like: 1st shot @ 1.65, 2nd shot @ 1.80, 3rd shot @ 1.95, 4th shot @ 2.10......

So I'd get 3, maybe 4 rounds into the badguy before he completes the reload he started at the same time I did. (presuming he's equally skilled, which is highly unlikely)

I'd call that a huge advantage for me.

 

[SSN Vet]

sling shot.... over hand rack.... slide stop/release...a proficient handgunner should be adept at all three.

Many with short, powerfull digits, need to shift their grip to hit the mag release and slide stop/release. This slows you down and in a crisis, you may drop the weapon.

Depending on what syle rear sight you have, overhand racking the slide in an adreneline fueled scenario may leave you with a nasty cut on your palm.

As mentioned, overhand racking enables you to keep the weapon in close, where it's harder for someone to grab it.

I find that slingshotting while extending my strong arm to bring the weapon on target is fast and reliable and leaves me in positon to immediately put more rounds on the target.

Lot's of things to consider....

no one size fits all answer, imho. You have to figure out what works well for you.

 

[bigfatdave]

Many with short, powerfull digits, need to shift their grip to hit the mag release and slide stop/release. This slows you down and in a crisis, you may drop the weapon.

Are we talking about issued weapons or chosen defensive arms?

Because I buy my pistols with stuff like that in mind, and anyone who doesn't needs to rethink their cunning plan.

 

[David E]

Because I buy my pistols with stuff like that in mind, and anyone who doesn't needs to rethink their cunning plan.

It's amazing how many people buy the wrong gun for themselves, fight it everytime they shoot it, then wonder why they never improve.