SMK 220 subs for "defense"?

[ny32182]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum, so if not, feel free to move it.

I recently bought some factory loaded PNW Arms 300blk 220gr subs. I was surprised to see the boxes marked as part of a "defensive" product line. What is the wounding profile of a 30 cal 220gr match bullet at 1100fps? I would not have thought it ideal for defensive type ammo?

The 125 SMK supers from the same company are marked "match".

 

[MCMXI]

It's a challenge to make any 300 BLK subsonic bullet expand on impact. People want/need high BC bullets to improve external ballistics so that they can shoot decent groups at 100 yards +. Those 220 SMK bullets are going to pencil right through a soft tissue target. Luckily humans aren't particularly resilient creatures when they get caught with a 220gr lump of lead in the chest, so the "defensive" claim isn't too far out in left field. I worked on a 300 BLK load when I was at Remington in '11 through '13 and the big thing at that time was to develop an expanding subsonic load for the military. Barnes was actively pursuing this but so far they haven't been able to deliver.

 

[ontarget]

I thought the Geneva Convention called for FMJ, or nonexpanding bullets.

 

[ny32182]

Personally I'm not too concerned with the Geneva Convention.

 

[Goosey]

What is the wounding profile of a 30 cal 220gr match bullet at 1100fps?

From the tests I've seen, not great.

 

[MCMXI]

I thought the Geneva Convention called for FMJ, or nonexpanding bullets.

There's some good information in the link below about the Hague Convention IV of 1907.

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

"Expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another state"

 

[yugorpk]

Shoot someone from 20 feet away 2 to 3 times with a 220 grain non expanding bullet. Then tell me how much fight they have left in them.

 

[Telekinesis]

Shoot someone from 20 feet away 2 to 3 times with a 220 grain non expanding bullet. Then tell me how much fight they have left in them.

That's a poor method to use. If someone were to shoot me with a .22 LR, I wouldn't stick around - but that doesn't mean a .22 is a good choice for defense against someone intent on killing you.

Most .30 caliber bullets aren't designed to expand at subsonic velocities, so they'll essentially just act like FMJs and likely punch right on through. If you're using it for defense, stick with supersonic ammo so that you have some expansion.

 

[Girodin]

I recently bought some factory loaded PNW Arms 300blk 220gr subs. I was surprised to see the boxes marked as part of a "defensive" product line. What is the wounding profile of a 30 cal 220gr match bullet at 1100fps? I would not have thought it ideal for defensive type ammo?

I've never seen a gel test that shows anything other than them poking a hole. That is the issue with lots of 300 BLK sub loads. They use bullets designed to be shot at 300 win mag velocities with 64, 000 PSI behind it. What you need for better terminal ballistics is a 30 cal bullet built more like a pistol bullet. Part of the reason for the cost is loading these overbuilt bullets. Rather poor terminal ballistics is the thing so many people fail to talk about when extolling the virtues of the 300 BLK as a great subsonic gun. What 300 Blk REALLY needs is widely available 220 grain bullets built to perform at subsonic speeds. Until then I'll use pistol cartridges for subsonics where I care about terminal performance. My 300 Blk loads where I care about terminal ballistics are supers shooting 110 grain Barnes bullets.

 

[yugorpk]

That's a poor method to use. If someone were to shoot me with a .22 LR, I wouldn't stick around - but that doesn't mean a .22 is a good choice for defense against someone intent on killing you.

Most .30 caliber bullets aren't designed to expand at subsonic velocities, so they'll essentially just act like FMJs and likely punch right on through. If you're using it for defense, stick with supersonic ammo so that you have some expansion.

So at self defense range...say 20 feet you will have 3-4 30 caliber holes punched through whatever it is you are shooting at through and through. Problem with that being what? Expansion being a total non issue at that range.

 

[Telekinesis]

So at self defense range...say 20 feet you will have 3-4 30 caliber holes punched through whatever it is you are shooting at through and through. Problem with that being what? Expansion being a total non issue at that range.

Expansion is everything with pistol ammo. Lets be honest, 220grains at 1100 fps is a hot .45 ACP, or .30 cal at 1100 fps is a .30 Luger. Subsonic .300 Blk is effectively pistol ammo. The biggest advantage in wounding found in rifle ammo is the temporary cavity (and yaw/fragmentation), but pistol ammo is too slow to have enough of that to matter.

So would you recommend FMJ pistol ammo for defense? No, you'd recommend good, expanding hollow points. And since there are generally no .30 caliber bullets that reliably expand at subsonic velocities, I recommend moving to something that not only expands but also has the wounding characteristics of a normal rifle round. Going with a supersonic round gets you the benefits with no downside other than slightly increased sound signature when using a suppressor.

I'm not saying that the .300 Blk subs would be completely ineffective, but supers would be a much better way to go.

 

[yugorpk]

Expansion is everything with pistol ammo. Lets be honest, 220grains at 1100 fps is a hot .45 ACP, or .30 cal at 1100 fps is a .30 Luger. Subsonic .300 Blk is effectively pistol ammo. The biggest advantage in wounding found in rifle ammo is the temporary cavity (and yaw/fragmentation), but pistol ammo is too slow to have enough of that to matter.

So would you recommend FMJ pistol ammo for defense? No, you'd recommend good, expanding hollow points. And since there are generally no .30 caliber bullets that reliably expand at subsonic velocities, I recommend moving to something that not only expands but also has the wounding characteristics of a normal rifle round. Going with a supersonic round gets you the benefits with no downside other than slightly increased sound signature when using a suppressor.

I'm not saying that the .300 Blk subs would be completely ineffective, but supers would be a much better way to go.

Shoot someone 2-3 times with a 30 luger or a 45 ACP and see how much fight is left in them. Is it going to scramble their insides and turn them inside out? Probably not. Are they going to stop whatever they are doing and decide to seek immediate medical attention because they have through holes assuming they werent completely dead instead of whatever they were doing that urged you to shoot them?

Yes. There are expanding subsonic 300 BLK bullets. Lehighs, Outlaw, even SIG is coming out with an expanding subsonic.

 

[jmr40]

Shoot someone from 20 feet away 2 to 3 times with a 220 grain non expanding bullet. Then tell me how much fight they have left in them.

Roy Benavidez not only didn't go down, he continued to fight another 6 hours between his 1st wounds and arriving at a hospital. He was rescued once only to have that helocopter shot down and had to be placed on a 2nd rescue chopper. Altogether he had 37 wounds including several from non expanding 7.62X39 bullets. His intestines were outside his body and he was initially declared dead by a doctor and placed in a body bag. He spit in the doctors face before the body bag could be closed to let them know he was alive.

Those bullets are cute if you want to shoot and not make any noise. But if you want to stop an attack you need some speed and expansion. The myth of 45 hardball is just that, a myth. Lots of folks have walked away after being hit with those too.

http://badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=50095485956

 

[Glockula]

One case study does not make what happened world wide gospel. Is a 220 SKG the best choice? Not in my opinion but in never felt too naked standing post with Barretta and 2 mags full of 147 grain fmj's. An AR mag holds 30 rounds right? I doubt it would take 1/6 of a mag to kill, maim or deter an aggressor with the OP's projectiles. Practice and shot placement will help more than wiz-bang ammo.

 

[Tirod]

Open tip match ammo has been legal to use in warfare since the 1980's : http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1262

The reason the military uses a full metal jacket is to enhance penetration - to shoot thru cover and hit the individual behind it. Including vehicle doors, magazine chest harnesses, or adobe walls. The preferred combat load is a FMJ with steel penetrator to get a hit, and remains the much more widely used round because of the big picture tactical considerations.

Consider what is being asked: can a .30 cal bullet weighing 220 grains at 1100 fps (at the muzzle ONLY ) expand when it hits the target and effectively stop it? The DOD already uses the MK262 5.56 OTM 70 grain bullet at 2600fps to do that. Black Hills improved the effectiveness quite a bit in trials and development, the .Gov hasn't much reason to make a wholesale change to another ammo that is a complication to supply and logistics.

Lets not forget the .30 x 5.56 wasn't originally wildcatted to do anything but meet the rules and sneak the AR15 into 3Gun competition in the early 80's, firing supersonic from a 20" barrel. That SSK got any niche performance at all testing in a SBR suppressed goes to their tenacity more than the ability of the cartridge as a defense round. The .300 Whisper was as much a varmint application as much as anything else.

At the present it's simply an overmarketed cartridge to churn money out of shooters. It's exactly what AAC did to spiff up suppressor sales when they exercised a hostile takeover and renamed it .300BO. <---- My emphasis because that marketing ploy usually smells to those with the senses to pick up on it, including the originators who get waylaid in the marketplace.

Now we have all sorts of "defensive ammo" to keep the spin on it.

Gel tests are in order. I expect this will perform at the same levels as other stuff in green zombie boxes or proclaiming it can not only eviscerate the game, it can further process it and even wrap the cuts in butcher paper.

Well, maybe not, but after 50 years of reading and seeing marketing manipulation, like anyone else I know what art is. Or isn't.

BTW, the Army didn't adopt their OWN cartridge financed by actual taxpayer funds, developed by SF and designed by the AMU at Ft Benning. The only military sales have been as an SBR round for protection details in the Middle East - which at least constitutes a military application.

That is the next level of hype, to churn the idea that the military will somehow adopt it over what they have been using since 1965.

 

[Captain O]

Marketing "gurus" can bullsquirt any spin on any cartridge they want to sell. I have been in marketing, off and on, for a number of years.

I would rather tell the truth and help my clients than sell them something that will be either disappointed, or less than desired. (I always wanted to "do the right thing" then have my clients return).

There are some products that aren't really helpful, or needed, but they'll sell. This drives the economy and wind up in the dustbin of history. The .300 Blackout will be one of those cartridges that have no Civilian application, but have a "cool" factor. When the "gloss" wears off of this 'white elephant' it will fade into oblivion.

Wait and see.

 

[kanook]

There are some products that aren't really helpful, or needed, but they'll sell. This drives the economy and wind up in the dustbin of history. The .300 Blackout will be one of those cartridges that have no Civilian application, but have a "cool" factor. When the "gloss" wears off of this 'white elephant' it will fade into oblivion.

Wait and see.

I keep saying the same thing about the Internet.

 

[yugorpk]

You are about as right about the internet as you are about the 300 BLK. Luddites. I believe that the one thing that people who fill the armchair commando role and people who are hunters but not gun guys have in common is the lack of understanding of recreational shooting. Not every round has to fulfill a tactical or hunting role. ive got a whole bunch of guns. Some are great for hunting and about the only thing I use them for is hunting. Most have no real role in hunting . Except for one or two guns I don't consider the rest of them to be defensive or especially tactical weapons. I'm not a SWAT guy. I'm an Engineer. They are toys. The 300 BLK excels with the other toys known as silencers. It is a better round than any of the pistol rounds for that role in that it silences better , operates from a locked breach and actuates the gas system of an AR without the issues the .223 has filling that role. The round is fun to play with. That's what is essential in recreational shooting.

 

[kanook]

Mine was meant as a joke, I don't fear technology. I actually own and hunt with the 300AAC Blackout and enjoy it immensely. To me/for me, it serves a much better role than the 5.56.

Every few weeks it seems that another company is making expanding subsonic loads for this 300.

 

[Captain O]

You are about as right about the internet as you are about the 300 BLK. Luddites. I believe that the one thing that people who fill the armchair commando role and people who are hunters but not gun guys have in common is the lack of understanding of recreational shooting. Not every round has to fulfill a tactical or hunting role. ive got a whole bunch of guns. Some are great for hunting and about the only thing I use them for is hunting. Most have no real role in hunting . Except for one or two guns I don't consider the rest of them to be defensive or especially tactical weapons. I'm not a SWAT guy. I'm an Engineer. They are toys. The 300 BLK excels with the other toys known as silencers. It is a better round than any of the pistol rounds for that role in that it silences better , operates from a locked breach and actuates the gas system of an AR without the issues the .223 has filling that role. The round is fun to play with. That's what is essential in recreational shooting.

"Toys" is right. I see little applicable purpose/function outside of "farting around". I guess that's okay if you can afford it. (If you haven't guessed, I don't give a "hoot mon" for the 5.56 x 45 either. It's a "ground hog" gun, little more).

"He who dies with the most toys, wins"? Really? Who will care?

 

[yugorpk]

If most AR owners were honest with themselves and what they use the AR for they'd call them toys too. Do you think that argument would go over well with the armchair operators on ARFCOM? Me neither.

 

[Captain O]

Please elucidate: Just how is this an effective improvement over the .300 Whisper? I can see little advantage in the .300 Blackout. The .300 Whisper has been around since the autumn of 1992 (nearly 24 years). The phrase,"reinventing the wheel" leaps to mind.

 

[yugorpk]

Improvement over the 300 whisper? If by improvement you mean a standardized SAAMI spec blatant rip off of the 300 whisper than yes, its an improvement. Its the same thing. A few extremely insignificant spec changes for legal reasons but other that that its a rip off by Remington. The problem with the whisper round was that the real developer J.D. Jones kept the round proprietary for licensing reasons. That and the fact he insisted on the .221 as the base round instead of the .223. Minor differences as far as the case goes but the licensing thing was a deal killer when Remington stepped into the silencer game when they picked up AAC and wanted to mass produce the cartridge and sell guns in the chambering. Now everyone except Savage and Mossberg ( because Mossberg is too good for that? ) sells at least one 300 BLK gun and there are 15 varieties of 300 BLK on the shelf at Cabelas.

If you want a relatively accurate heavy slow moving round that packs a punch out to 100+ yards that cycles the AR with no other changes than a barrel and is really really quiet with a silencer then the 300 BLK is your huckleberry. I for one don't see any reason to put light , fast bullets in it other than to satisfy the man with one gun. I hear about people shooting elk with them ( insert face palm emothingy ) and it makes me want to vomit. Ive got about 8000 loaded rounds on the shelf right now whiich will all be cycled through and loaded again by the end of the season. Best thing since velcro fly's.

 

[Captain O]

Another cartridge for which I will have little use. At my age, I doubt i'll be working as a short-range police sniper. If I were "shooting rats in the barn" they would have to be bloody huge rats to justify the expense.

Thank you, but no. I'll pass.

 

[yugorpk]

As far as dying with the most toys who gives a crap about that. It the ability to use those toys up BEFORE you die that matters. It gets back to the recreational shooting thing. If you are like me you shoot up a good 1000 rounds a month. I can shoot everything I aim at not that most of what I aim at needs shooting. People who view their guns as tools with purposes and who only use them as the need arises wouldn't understand. I know people like that who sight in a rifle ( or not ) and shot 3-4 rounds a year while hunting. Thats fine if you are into that. Hardly a day goes by where I don't load 20-100 rounds a day or more and I fully expect the 10K plus Ive got on the shelf to be expended and reloaded by the end of the summer. It just happens that the 300 BLK is the most efficient cartridge for that sort of shooting.