Sniper Flash Cards Vs Mildot Master

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RaymondMillbrae

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
35
Location
San Freak-cisco, CA
Hey guys, I have a few questions for yall.

I am in the market for some cards to help estimate distance, holdover, and windage. (Angle is not really a great factor).

The two systems I have my crosshairs on are:

1) MILDOT MASTER
1) SNIPER FLASH CARDS

At first the MILDOT MASTER was the one that caught my attention. But after coming across the SNIOPER FLASH CARD website, I am having doubts.

I totally agree with the reasoning behind the SNIPER FLASH CARDS (using angles [MOA] instead of yards and inches), but then again, there's weaknesses in this system as well.

You see, the SNIPER FLASH CARD guy says that the MILDOT MASTER has a few flaws. (Losing sight of the taget while operating the slide rule, giving away your position if you need to illuminate the card to use it, etc...).

But I've noticed something. The SNIPER FLASH CARDS also have a HUGE flaw. From what I gather, there are over 50 (FIFTY) cards in their system. And that means that you will be placed in two different positions:

1) Having to memorize all the flash cards. (Which can be a nightmare if you need to recall some information in a stressful situation).

2) Or worst...having to carry over FIFTY cards while out in the field. (Can you imagine the disaster that may happen with this scenario)?

Anyhoo...they both seem to have their strengths and weaknesses.

But here's my question, does anyone have any experience with both of these systems that can give a FIRST-HAND comparison on these two systems? I would like to know a bit more about these SNIPER FLASH CARDS. (No guessing or "I believe" please. Don't waste my time).

I have found many references to the MILDOT MASTER, but since I have been scouring the internet for reviews of the SNIPER FLASH CARDS...I have found nothing.

Once again, information on the SNIPER FLASH CARDS would be appreciated.

Thanks folks!

In Christ: Raymond
 
I carry my Mildot Master around my neck on a dogtag chain.

Once you have a range card build for your rifle and ammo. You have all you need.

The only way things might change is if your picking up strange ammo of odd lots and have to refigure your range card for them
 
the situation you're decribing "...losing sight of the target......giving away your position.." imply that you're a working sniper,rather than just having fun at the range or backwoods. if so, wouldn't you have a spotter that would handle the chores? he does the math, leaving your eye glued to the target,right?
and if you're just shooting for fun,well, the target ain't goin' anywhere ! FWIW, i like the mil-dot master, ( i'm just playing,too) and it seems like the 50 card system might be more trouble than it's worth. i also agree with CDignition, consider a range finder.
 
This is the 21st century. There are currently a couple of rifle scopes with BUILT IN laser rangefinders. Have you considered one of these?
 
a Laser RF is the best solution for normal folks like us(non Military).

Unless you have been indoctrinated by military training on using a Mil Dot scope for ranging, do it a different way. It is harder than you think to do accurately(within 5 yards consistently).

I prefer a MOA scope reticle on FFP so I can gauge accurate distances in MOA for adjustments of my turrets.
 
Thanks, guys...

but I already own a laser rangefinder - a Bushnell Yardage Pro Scout. I found one super cheap a few months ago. (Brand new, for $100.00, after the mail-in rebate).

I am currently shooting a Remmy 700P LTR (20" inch fluted barrel in .308) with a Super Sniper 16x42mm fixed scope.

I am a pretty good shot. And with all the right tools, and the wind in my favor, I can make some pretty exceptional shots.

But here's the deal...I want more...faster.

I am going into the mountains this Labor Day weekend with my buddy, and we have set some pretty drastic goals for ourselves. (More like a competition). We are bringing our handguns, shotguns and rifles. But our rifles are where the comptetion is gonna take place.

We are gonna set out five or six different targets at different distances (between 250 and 600 yards out), and then we are only gonna have a handful of rounds given to each of us.

Our rifles are zeroed at 200 and 300 yards, so we will need to adjust our scopes on each target, accordingly, in order to make each shot count.

Like I said, we will ONLY have a specified number of rounds, and we will also be timed. The round placements within the targets will also count for points. (So accuracy is definitely a factor here).

So as you can see, I would like to have an edge in this little competition with my buddy. Calculations are no problem (the basics were learned in the military and then through advanced self-study), but they are time consuming...especially when being timed.

Anyhoo...so that's the rest of the story.

Sniper Flash Crads, Mildot Master, or Ballisticards? (I think Ballisticards are out of the question, as they do not have a card for my short, 20" barrel. And time-restraints do not give me the time to get a custom card made-up). But then again, once I'm out there and the day is done, I will have aquired all the necessary information to make my own ballistics data card.

Oh yea...and in closing...check out this site if you want to play for a few minutes. (CLICK HERE). Some of yall may already be familiar with it, but it's always fun to check out an old toy every once in a while.

Enjoy. And don't forget to post SNIPER FLASH CARD info if yall have it.

In Christ: Raymond
 
U.S. military snipers are expected to assassinate people in countries that have diplomatic relations with us and, hence, access to FBI fingerprint files.
Click to expand...

This comment makes me take all the rest of his comments with a grain of salt.

If you ever watch infomercials, people cannot work a standard vaccuum cleaner with out falling on the floor or a standard blender without spending 10 minutes looking at the manual to see if they need to set it on speed 8 or speed 9 to crush ice for their margarita. A lot of his complaints seem similar.

Also

The Mildot Master® can be used for shots out to 2000 yards and the error in interpolating between the inches drop at 1900 yards and at 2000 yards could be significant.
Click to expand...

Yes, the drop in inches between 1900 and 2000 is significant. However, any end user is going to realize it is a logrithmic scale, a curve and not a straight line, and when faced with a 1950 yard shot won't simply average the distance listed for 1900 and 2000. But then, a 1950 shot? ***! Good luck estimating distances with mildots at roughly 2000 yard range. It is one thing to get a pretty decent range +/- 5%, at 287 yards that means maybe it is really at 272 or maybe 310, not much different, but at 2000 yards, those slight errors in distance are going to be a much bigger problem than the ability to properly estimate from 1900 drop and 2000 drop what the dope for 1950 should be

Mark 4 by Leupold is available with dials calibrated in yards. They have two dials available: One for the Federal GM308M cartridge and one for the M118 military cartridge.1 Of course, a Mark 4 costs $2000, fully ten times the cost of the scope I recommend, the BSA 4-16× with an illuminated mil-dot reticle
Click to expand...

I have a BSA with illiminated reticle on my rifle. It works fine for me, but then I am an average shot I am not planning on shooting anything beyiond 300 yards. I do think that the BSA scope, and many others in the $200 range are absolutely great for the average or even exceptional hunter. However, I think people taking shots at extreme range are going to need the lack of defects found only in the high end $1000 scopes. I don't trust anyone who is talking extreme range shooting with a $200 scope.

The Aguilar System is designed for non-magnum deer rifles zeroed for 300 yards. This works for all standard deer rifles. It does not work for the AR-15 or for rifles chambered in .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua or .50 BMG. Civilians, as a rule, do not have such weapons, nor do they handload their .30 caliber rifle cartridges with 175 grain BTHP bullets. If you’re into this exotic stuff, then my generic holdover and windage figures will not work for you. The Aguilar System for Medium-Range Sniping cannot be adapted to exotic calibers and handloads. The Mildot Master® can be used with any rifle, provided that your armorer supplies you with accurate ballistic data.
Click to expand...

Hum, anyone who thinks 'civilians, as a rule, do not have such weapons' as an AR-15 taking to 'civilian snipers' is reaching. Also, the 300 winmag is now in the top 10 list of common calibers, maybe even top 5.

It seems odd to me that he can claim his system will work fine for a 30-30, 257 roberts, 35 whelen, 30-06, etc all using the same basic ballistics figures and still worry about 1950 yard dope.

As a class, 270, 280, 308, 7mmx57, 7mm-08, 30-06, 303, 7.62x54R, 8mm mauser etc are very similar, still some 'deer rifles' are goign to be 35 remington, 25-06, etc, that are going to be far enough off to cause problems. Still, at 1900 yards out, the differences between very similar chamberings will show up, same with using different bullet weights, and will be a much bigger problem than fumbling with a sliderule, or with knowing how to take the drop for 1900 and 2000 and figure out the drop at 1950
Preparation. Buy a non-magnum bolt-action deer rifle and install a scope with a mil-dot reticle and finger-adjustable dials. On non-German scopes the mil-dots are only accurate at the highest power, so you may want to tape the power dial (duct tape use #857) so it cannot be turned down. Sight the weapon in to hit dead-on at 300 yards.
Click to expand...

Um, say again?

He talks about how hard it is to reaquire a target once you put your rifle down to fumble with the mildot sliderule. Yet makes no comment about difficulty of finding your target initially on a wide battlefield with the scope set at 12 power. Yes when you are glassing that garage door to estimate ranges reach up and crank that power to 12. Leave it at 12 if that is a good power for your shot, but i'd recommend being able to ahve it at power lvl 4 for initially finding your target. If you have to turn it to 12 to get the reading, turn it to 4 to find your target and turn it back to 12, no big deal.

having it ductaped at 12 to me seems just stupid.
 
Hey, Guys (Akodo),

thanks for the feedback. But I have one more question.

I was looking at the Mildot Master and noticed something on the instructions. (See below).

As easy as 1-2-3:

Align target size with measured number of mildots in left window.
Read range to target at arrow.
Determine bullet drop for rifle and load being used for that range and read sight adjustment in MOA or mils at that bullet drop in right window.
Click to expand...

It seems that even the Mildot Master does not give me the information I need. (The number of mil-dot's to hold over at a given distance). I still need to figure out how to determine the bullet drop for the rifle and load I am using at that specific range, which then needs to be attached to the back of the Mil-Dot Master to complete the formula.

So where - or how - do I get this "bullet drop" information? Is it available anywhere for free? Or is there a formula I could use to make my own ballistics data card?

Geesh...just when I thought I was getting somewhere.

So close, but yet so far.

Thanks.

In Christ: Raymond
 
Last edited:
Mil-Dot Master is my favorite tool for long-range, estimation-required target shooting.

It got me through the Gateway Dynamite Shoot, referenced elsewhere in this forum.

Rich
 
what you need is a ballistics calculator.

There are free ones if you google, often ammo companies will have them

They require you to input real world data, and then i will draw you a nice curve. If you don't have a chronograph to get the actual muzzle velocity of your personal rifle, the listed muzzle velocity from the ammo manufacturers website will be close enough. Calculator looks at the diameter and weight of hte bullet to figure out it's areodynamics, (ballistic coefficient) and then takes the starting speed, then figures out how quickly it looses speed, to get flight time for each point of distance. Once you know flight time, it is just applying the acceleration due to gravity downward.
 
This is the 21st century. There are currently a couple of rifle scopes with BUILT IN laser rangefinders. Have you considered one of these?

My mildot masters batteries never run down.

I used the Redfield Acutrac before the Mildot system came out. I liked it better. Had to change with the times.
 
I've never used a mildot master...but I know how to make my own custom ballistics cards. Go to this site http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj_basic/traj_basic.html and enter your specific data, not just velocity but also temp, humidity, altitude. If you haven't chronoed your loads, just estimate and it will still be a better table out to 600 than a generic card for a 24" barrel. If your contest is the first time you shoot with the data, well you will have the field adjustments and a perfect adjusted card from then on. Obviously, if you can confirm before then, you will be way ahead.
 
2000 yards is way way out of the ballpark for 308 rounds. You'll need to chrono your rounds and then use the BC to determine a drop chart.

PS. I use 190 VLD bullets in my 308.. ;) NOT that m118 ball junk.
 
It seems that even the Mildot Master does not give me the information I need. (The number of mil-dot's to hold over at a given distance). I still need to figure out how to determine the bullet drop for the rifle and load I am using at that specific range, which then needs to be attached to the back of the Mil-Dot Master to complete the formula.

So where - or how - do I get this "bullet drop" information? Is it available anywhere for free? Or is there a formula I could use to make my own ballistics data card?
Click to expand...

This data varies wirely from bullet to bullet, load to load, and rifle to rifle. Yes, you could use factory ammo and approximate your trajectory using their online ballistics tables, or -- and this is what I do -- go find yourself a 500-yard range and actually shoot the drops at 100-yard increments.

Then, take your findings and put them into an Excel spreadsheet. Use a 3rd-or 4th-order polynomial data line fit, and choose "show equation". Now, plug in yardages from 600 to 1000 into your new trajectory equation, and you'll have a pretty darn fine drop table out to 1000yds.

If you want, you could then put in an MOA conversion and get # of turret clicks.

Though from 600 to 1000 it will only be an extrapolation, I think you'll find that the windage impacts of breezes will usually be greater than the small elevation errors in a drop table like the ones I'm describing.

It's really easy. If you have trouble doing it, feel free to PM me your data and I'll send you a file.

By the way -- doing any kind drops past 1200 with a 308 is a waste of time. If you want to shoot 1k+, pick something different, like a 6.5-284 or 338 Lapua. Or.......416 Barrett or 50BMG. :)
 
Thanks guys,

I'll post a bit more later. (After this weekends shooting).

And by the way, a .338 Lapua and a 50 cal. are part of our mountain arsenal.

He he he he he! :)

b106909207.jpg

b106909209.jpg

Later, Gators.

In Christ: Raymond
 
Working too hard

I like to see such enthusiasm in the shooting sports. All of the techniques and issues you were discussing back in Aug of 07 are outdated however. Don't get me wrong, I spent over 12 years in the US Army, primarily as a Sniper, so I am intimately familliar with these techniques. But a former sniper instructor finally did us all a huge favor. He invented a new scope that takes the work out of the science of shooting. The military has begun purchasing and using his scopes. I have transitioned from Minute of Man to Minute of Deer, so I just purchased the hawk. But those with the desire can do much more. Check it out folks, speaking from first hand experience, this thing is awesome. www.horusvision.com
 
Reply

RaymondMillbrae writes:
But I've noticed something. The SNIPER FLASH CARDS also have a HUGE flaw. From what I gather, there are over 50 (FIFTY) cards in their system. And that means that you will be placed in two different positions:

1) Having to memorize all the flash cards. (Which can be a nightmare if you need to recall some information in a stressful situation).

2) Or worst...having to carry over FIFTY cards while out in the field. (Can you imagine the disaster that may happen with this scenario)?

I reply:
You don’t carry the cards into the field with you. They are a training aid to help you memorize holdover and windage information so you won’t be confronted with the nightmare of having to use a slide-rule in the middle of a firefight.

MIL-DOT writes:
the situation you're decribing "...losing sight of the target......giving away your position.." imply that you're a working sniper,rather than just having fun at the range or backwoods. if so, wouldn't you have a spotter that would handle the chores? he does the math, leaving your eye glued to the target,right?
and if you're just shooting for fun,well, the target ain't goin' anywhere ! FWIW, i like the mil-dot master, ( i'm just playing,too) and it seems like the 50 card system might be more trouble than it's worth. i also agree with CDignition, consider a range finder.

I reply:
At my Reviewof the Mildot Master I write:

“Military snipers work in teams and, if they have a 20x spotting scope with a mil-dot reticle, the spotter can measure things and take all the time he needs to fiddle with his Mildot Master while the shooter keeps the target in sight. But civilian snipers work alone and there are real dangers with putting one’s rifle down. You might get dirt in the muzzle. The enemy might see you wiggling around. If you are firing from darkness into light (as you should be), the enemy will definitely see you when you turn your flashlight on to illuminate your Mildot Master. But the biggest problem of all is that you may not be able to find your target again.”

jerkface11 writes:
This is the 21st century. There are currently a couple of rifle scopes with BUILT IN laser rangefinders.

I reply:
Yes, it is the 21st century and helicopters and tanks have FLIR that can see a laser range-finder.

At my Frequently Asked Questions I write:

Q: Professional snipers and well-heeled civilians have a laser range-finder and a Leupold Mark IV scope with yardage, not MOA, printed on the elevation dial. Doesn’t that make the mil-dot reticle obsolete?

I answer in detail.

akodo writes:
Quote:
The Mildot Master® can be used for shots out to 2000 yards and the error in interpolating between the inches drop at 1900 yards and at 2000 yards could be significant.

I think people taking shots at extreme range are going to need the lack of defects found only in the high end $1000 scopes. I don't trust anyone who is talking extreme range shooting with a $200 scope.

It seems odd to me that he can claim his system will work fine for a 30-30, 257 roberts, 35 whelen, 30-06, etc all using the same basic ballistics figures and still worry about 1950 yard dope.

I reply:
I’m not the one worrying about 1950 yard dope. I am criticizing the Mildot Master for advising people on these impractical shots. You are attacking a straw man. I clearly state on my home page, “While no help with Hathcockian cross-valley shots, the Aguilar System is ideally suited to fast-paced urban combat within 600m.”

In my Outline of Sniper Tactics I write:

E. Hug. Move alongside a column of troops 300 to 500 yards from them.
1) Inside 200 yards you are vulnerable to machineguns and RPGs.
2) Outside 600 yards you are vulnerable to artillery and airstrikes.
3) Stay in the safety zone; fire when there is an obstacle to shoot over.

In the last question of my Frequently Asked Questions I argue against “MW” of the Daily Paul forum who accused me of neglecting to instruct people on 650+ yard shots, which makes it a bit ironic that I am now accused of instructing people on 1950-yard shots. In fact, the longest shots considered in my system are 650 yards and I recommend that people remove the master-level (550+ yards) cards from their pack unless they actually are a master-level shooter.

akodo writes:
As a class, 270, 280, 308, 7mmx57, 7mm-08, 30-06, 303, 7.62x54R, 8mm mauser etc are very similar, still some 'deer rifles' are goign to be 35 remington, 25-06, etc, that are going to be far enough off to cause problems.

I reply:
I answer this question in detail in the first question of my Frequently Asked Questions, including graphs of the several rifle’s trajectories.

akodo writes:
He talks about how hard it is to reaquire a target once you put your rifle down to fumble with the mildot sliderule. Yet makes no comment about difficulty of finding your target initially on a wide battlefield with the scope set at 12 power.

I reply:
Again, you are attacking a straw man. I never said 12-power. I recommend a fixed 10-power scope or a 3-9 power variable.

CDignition writes:
2000 yards is way way out of the ballpark for 308 rounds. You'll need to chrono your rounds and then use the BC to determine a drop chart.

Richard.Howe writes:
By the way -- doing any kind drops past 1200 with a 308 is a waste of time.

I reply:
Akodo was attacking a straw man and now everybody is sticking their knife in the same straw man without even bothering to read the home page of my website where I write, “While no help with Hathcockian cross-valley shots, the Aguilar System is ideally suited to fast-paced urban combat within 600m.”

Postscript:
Thank you all for your interest in my product. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask - but read my Frequently Asked Questions first - it actually answers most of these questions.
 
update

One of the graphs in the Frequently Asked Questions page of my website was wrong - I had a trajectory graph where the windage graph was supposed to go. I fixed that so, hopefully, it makes more sense now. Also, I corrected an indentation problem that also made things a bit confusing.

p.s. I'm new to this forum and have what is probably a dumb question: How do I quote previous comments in a thread? Other forums I've been on have a "Reply with Quote" button, but I don't see that on this forum.
 
response to Akodo and MIL-DOT

Akodo quotes and criticizes me:

"Quote:
U.S. military snipers are expected to assassinate people in countries that have diplomatic relations with us and, hence, access to FBI fingerprint files.

This comment makes me take all the rest of his comments with a grain of salt."

I respond:

When I wrote this in 2004, I was thinking primarily of Pakistan. I believe that the events of the last four years have strengthened my position, not weakened it, as exemplified by the latest news from Pakistan.

Pakistan is our ally (we give them $10B a year) and, as such, it is rather awkward not to cooperate with them on law enforcement matters. But, even when Mushariff was in charge, there was very little sympathy for the U.S. among mid-level officers. Sympathy has only decreased since Mushariff's exit.

It is really not a good idea to drop fingerprint-laden gear like sliderules when on a sniper mission there. And the best way to avoid dropping crap like that is not to bring it. With my system, all you need is the rifle and scope; with the Mildot Master system, you also need a sliderule and a flashlight to illuminate it, plus a laminated ballistics sheet, since there is really not enough room on the sliderule to paste in this information in a font size that can be read in dim light.

MIL-DOT writes:

"the situation you're decribing '...losing sight of the target......giving away your position..' imply that you're a working sniper,rather than just having fun at the range or backwoods. if so, wouldn't you have a spotter that would handle the chores? he does the math, leaving your eye glued to the target,right?"

I respond:

Okay, so now we have two guys, which doubles the amount of equipment necessary. Not only must he bring a spotting scope but he has to carry his personal weapon, ammunition for it, lunch, etc. As any married man knows, bringing a partner along doesn't double the chance of a major screwup - it quadruples it.

This is getting ridiculous. Using the Mildot Master system, one practically has to take a U-Haul van into the field to carry all of one's gear. C'mon guys, we're just trying to shoot someone a quarter of a mile away - it's not rocket science. If you can't accomplish this simple task with a scoped rifle and nothing else, then you didn't prepare. And by "prepare," I mean, memorize holdover and windage information.

Flashcards would help with such memorization. U.S. snipers have to learn to speak Urdu before deploying in Pakistan. Didn't they use vocabulary cards to help them learn Urdu words? Well, then why can't they use Sniper Flash Cards to help them learn holdover and windage information?

Honestly! Bring a sliderule to a gunfight? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of! All they need now is a pocket protector, coke-bottle glasses and a lousy haircut and they'll have the nerd look perfected.
 
new member Shaka is the owner of Sniper Flash Card page.

I stand by my analysis.

#1 "U.S. military snipers are expected to assassinate people in countries that have diplomatic relations with us and, hence, access to FBI fingerprint files. "

I don't believe we have our army snipers killing civilians and then have our FBI run fingerprints on 'evidence' left behind.

#2 "The second thing one notices is that linear interpolation does not work. Suppose one has been given data in 100 yard increments and one has determined that the range is 150 yards. By interpolating between 2.1” and 0.0” one would estimate the 150 yard drop to be 1.0”, which is 56% of the actual value, 1.8”. That’s not very good. The Mildot Master® can be used for shots out to 2000 yards and the error in interpolating between the inches drop at 1900 yards and at 2000 yards could be significant."

Shooters know the bullet's path is not linear. Being 0.8 inchs off is not terribly relevant, serious shooters know drop is not linear and would take that fact into account when guestimating ranges between two data points. I don't consider the 'flaw' at estimating the drop for 1950 by using the data for 1900 and 2000 to be significant. Further I consider this line of criticism from a system self described to be roughly 600 meters max system to be relevant at all

#3 " (Leupold) Mark 4 costs $2000, fully ten times the cost of the scope I recommend, the BSA 4-16× with an illuminated mil-dot reticle."

Anyone seriously recommending a BSA 4-16x for serious sniper work I got to question their reasoning.

#4 "Preparation. Buy a non-magnum bolt-action deer rifle and install a scope with a mil-dot reticle and finger-adjustable dials. On non-German scopes the mil-dots are only accurate at the highest power, so you may want to tape the power dial (duct tape use #857) so it cannot be turned down. Sight the weapon in to hit dead-on at 300 yards. "

To start, if the scope is a FFP (First focal plane) then yes, you can use mil-dots at all power settings. This style is almost exclusively found on the highest end scopes, but in no way is exclusive to german scope makers. Most scopes are indeed SFP, or Second Focal Plane, and the mil-dots are only going to give you accurate results at one specific magnification, normally the highest.

Second, a scope 'duct taped' at 16X (recall, your suggested BSA 4-16x) or even the more common 3-9x 'duct taped' at 9x for 300yard shots is rediculous. At extreme magnifications you have an extremely limited field of view, which makes aquirring the target extremely difficult. This is why most serious hunters have their scopes dialed down as low as possible. Also, take a look at the magnification found on WW2 'sniper' rifles, often it is just 4x at which point you still have a limited field of view, but much less limited. Also, unless you are shooting off a bench or sandbags, a scope will magnify every small movement of your body. For a 'quick' shot from an impromptu rest at somewhere between 300 yards and 600 yards, extra magnificiation (especially 16X) is a hinderance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
The voting punch-cards.
Replies
16
Views
681
Edward429451
E
C
  • Locked
Please Donate to Adopt A Sniper! Help the Troops!
2 3
Replies
56
Views
2K
MaterDei
M
Mainsail
  • Locked
Snipers in Iraq
Replies
3
Views
996
Wes Janson
W
S
  • Locked
Sniper book list
2
Replies
36
Views
7K
4v50 Gary
4v50 Gary
D
  • Locked
Marine sniper credited with longest confirmed kill in Iraq
2
Replies
27
Views
9K
pete f
P
Back
Top