The Perfect Sniper Rifle

[jmar]

I'm working on developing a sniper rifle and could use feedback and opinions, what in your opinion would constitute a perfect sniper rifle?

For example what caliber, what general shape, weight, maximum range, features, appearance etc?

What do you think is the best on the market or in history? Why do you like it, are there any features from one gun that stand out and you'd like on others? Open to any discussion about this topic as long as it's constructive. Thanks

 

[horsey300]

I think a .338 lapua is as useless as a .22 revolver if I don't know what targets/ranges I'm looking at. Urban snipers with frangible rds at the police recorded average of 50 yds with a .223 are as useful in their own right as a .50 cal anti material rd launched from 1400 yds at an enemy time sensitive target shielded by a car door. "Sniping" is a loose relative term that does not equate any single rifle/cartridge. Guerillas can snipe an enemy platoon in dense cover with selective shots from m-14s and aks. My brother sat in a cedar row and sniped a coyote with a .17 hmr at 13 yds 20 min after I sniped a prairie dog @300 yds with my 300wm. Similarly, I've hidden in a wash out and sniped a prairie dog through his mound with a heavy rd out of an iron sighted .303 brit. ALL of them were wonderful.

 

[jmorris]

what in your opinion would constitute a perfect sniper rifle?

One that would be as accurate as a 1000 yard benchrest rifle, cost and weigh as much as a Marlin model 60 and have a chameleon camo coating that changed colors to match those round it. I guess it would also need to come with optics so it doesn't just look like a scope hovering over the bench.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I have to say the "sniper rifle" term doesn't really explain the intentions and/or requirements of the OP. I have to agree with horsey300 on that note.

Could you elaborate further? End Goal?

Example: hunting, bench rest, competition?

 

[Kendal Black]

Yep. Let's hear more about the mission. Sniping is the use of stealth and marksmanship to achieve surprise. It's been accomplished with a suppressed .22 pistol and with an 88mm cannon. So we're talking somewhere within that bracket, I suppose...

 

[ACP]

You say "sniper rifle" which is usually a military term to shoot enemy soldiers from concealment at a distance.

You want a bolt action rifle in .308 Winchester caliber. I suggest a Remington 700 with a 20 or 22 inch barrel with a 1:10 or 1:11.25 inch twist. I prefer HS Precision stocks. The rifle may have a Remington XMark Pro trigger, which some people do not like; I am on the fence about them. I would stick with an internal magazine instead of a more expensive box magazine. It would be nice if the barrel was already threaded for a suppressor (NOT a muzzle brake) which you may consider in the future. I would put on a Harris or Caldwell bipod. You will need a picatinny rail for mounting the scope, and either 1" or 30mm scope rings. I like Warne scope rings, or Badger. I prefer Nikon or Leupold scopes, or a SWFA Super Sniper, with mil dots or something like a TMR reticle (Leupold's tactical milling reticle, also comes illuminated). I believe a fixed 6x or 10x (at the most) scope is all that is needed for military sniping; you are looking at hitting an 8-10" circle at 600 yards or so, not shooting 2" groups. That is what dedicated target/bench rifles are for. A smaller magnification gives you a much better field of view, which is what you need as a sniper, to find, identify and track targets. You should be able to shoot this rifle standing, kneeling, prone, barricade, off the bipod, and off improvised rests -- that is why I object to magazine fed sniper rifles. Magazines are good for competitions; plus I like to be able to adjust my hand placement depending on my position.

I have a Remington 700 LTR in .308 that I purchased used for about $600. It has a variable 3.5-14x mil dot Nikon ProStaff 5 (about $400) on it right now because I am using it mostly for load development and appreciate the higher magnification when I am shooting groups that may be sorted by 1/10th of an inch at 100 yards before I settle on that load. I can leave it set at 6x; 10x is the power for ranging with the mil dot on that scope. It has Warne rings and a Warne base (about $100 for both). The factory trigger (not X Mark) breaks consistently at 2.25 lbs. on my digital scale. The factory barrel is a 1:10 twist, fluted, and is free floated. With the scope and sling it weights 10 lbs. unloaded. It is a joy to carry and shoot offhand or from improvised rests. With my handloads I have put 10 rounds into an inch at 100 yards.

.308 allows you to practice offhand shooting with military surplus ammunition. The recoil is nothing and you won't burn your barrel out like you do with a 300WM or 338 Lapua. Practice makes you better, not fancy equipment. Learn to range distances through the scope and dope the wind. Chrono your loads if you can and run them through a ballistic calculator so you know your drops at distance, and tape that to your stock. Or you can chrono your loads and have Leupod or Nikon make you up custom scope turret caps($60) when you can dial the yardage and hold on the crosshairs, no dialing mils needed.

I am really a keep it simple stupid kind of guy. I have spray camo on mine; I used local leaves and grass as a template. I like to try and shoot every week. Save your money on a custom gun and buy a similar 22LR bolt gun as a trainer; it will help you read the wind when shooting at 25 and 100 yards.

Bottom line: Remington 700 LTR, or a 5R, in .308 Winchester with a 20-22" barrel, Warne mount and rings, Nikon, Leupold or SWFA scope with a simple reticle, Harris or Caldwell bipod, simple sling, buy 500-1,000 rounds of ammo and practice in all weather, year-round.

Edit to add: before I had the variable Nikon mounted I had a fixed 4x and could hit whatever I wanted. I will likely go back to a fixed 6x, maybe 10.

 

[ACP]

FYI, my dream rifle is a Sako TRG 22 or a GA Precision rifle; the TRG is $3100 and the GAP about $4000, no optics included. Nightforce and USO make great scopes. But now you are into a $5-6,000 rig and not a $1,000 rig like I have. If LR shooting becomes your thing, move up to those great rifles; I would start modestly and see what your interest and talent is. Most rifle barrels and triggers will outshoot the guy behind the trigger for a long time.

 

[lemaymiami]

If if were me I'd want to read anything about the Marine Corps unit responsible for setting up and maintaining their rifle team since they have great input into the Corps sniper program (from what I've read in the past...). Believe they even handload their rounds in that same unit to very exacting standards....

By the way the requirements for military and police snipers are quite different (range to target, parameters, approach to target by team designated to perform the action, etc. ) As always the tactics employed by the shooting team to get into position- then withdraw successfully afterward might just be more important than the weapons being brought to bear on whatever target is being met...

 

[jmar]

I should clarify:


When i say 'develop' i don't mean build off a base gun, i'm talking about building it from scratch from my own design.
Also we are talking only bolt action here and must be lethal at 1000+ yards. When i say sniper i'm using it in it's correct term, it must be military capable as well as being a good shooter for people who just enjoy the long range sport. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Kendal Black]

One matter to be addressed is whether it should be a gun in a stock, like the Marines' M40, or a chassis gun, like the Accuracy International or the Ruger Precision Rifle.

An advantage of a traditional stock (in form if not in material) is that there is less sticking out to hang up on things as you crawl about in the shrubbery.

 

[Jim Watson]

So what is your own design? And what do you need to add to it that we can tell you?

I don't think a sniper rifle needs to weigh 16 lbs, for one thing. Where are those space age materials and finite element designs?

A 6CM would do all I need done to a foreigner at 1000 yards.

 

[jmorris]

When i say 'develop' i don't mean build off a base gun, i'm talking about building it from scratch from my own design.

What equipment do you have CNC mill/Lathe(s), EDM, molding, rifling machine, heat treat, finish? What is projected MSRP and annual production numbers?

 

[MCMXI]

what in your opinion would constitute a perfect sniper rifle?

Accuracy International did this back in the '80s... and are still doing it.

 

[horsey300]

I should clarify:


When i say 'develop' i don't mean build off a base gun, i'm talking about building it from scratch from my own design.
Also we are talking only bolt action here and must be lethal at 1000+ yards. When i say sniper i'm using it in it's correct term, it must be military capable as well as being a good shooter for people who just enjoy the long range sport. Sorry for the confusion.

Well start a rugervsremvssavvswinvsanything thread and you'll quickly find that you will never make EVERYONE happy, Murica! Keep it simple. Pick an action that functions reliably either crf or push feed or both but make sure it won't ice up, bog down with dust, rust overnight, or fall apart under high pressure or you'll never hear the end of it. 2 stage triggers are becoming popular but I doubt timney goes out of business tomorrow. If you want to target the sporting community, you're talking to people who won't use a punishing .338 all day long generally speaking. 6, 6.5, 7mm and 30cal would probably be a good place to start. Look at bc of the long range bullets and the oal of that cartridge and plan on shooters wanting to utilize the long bullets, hornady ELD and bergers spring to mind as well as scenar. Suppressed shooting is growing interest so threaded barrels will draw interest. If I were consistently shooting 1000 yds I'd want an adjustable comb and a bipod-attached to a real sling stud not a plastic mold. Throw in some barrel length and free ammo.

 

[ACP]

I can't help you with your own design. I would say copy a Surgeon action, and if you are looking at 1000 yards, make it 300 Winchester Magnum. I think the other parameters hold true: no excessive barrel length and a simple, rugged stock.

 

[Bart B.]

The most reliable and ease of field maintenance box magazine action for decades has been the Winchester 70; go measure it then compare against the others to learn why. It resists twisting loose from bedding like round ones do. It's also near 3 times stiffer than Rem 700 ones. Match rifles built on it will shoot just as accurate as a bigger, solid benchrest action that impresses so many people. All 5-shot groups inside 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards is as good as anybody has got to date. Ignore those few-shot records in the 2 inch range; all shots count, not those few that once in 50 times is tiny.

Some years ago, when military marksmen were testing rifles for sniper use learned first shot accuracy at 1000 to 1500 yards was the .300 Win Mag. Beat the pants off the .338 Lapua Magnum. It also was easier to shoot accurately because of its lesser recoil than the 33 caliber Lap Mag. Today, I'd pick a rimless cartridge over a belted one; one of the 30 caliber short magnums that equal the 300 Win Mag's velocity. A 190 grain bullet would be the best compromise of all weights.

A medium weight 26 inch barrel in a stock and scope configuration that's snag-free and an internal box magazine holding 4 rounds is better than any detachable magazine because it stays in place for all shots Detachables don't so they degrade accuracy unless all you have are matched to your rifle, but then you couldn't use your buddy's magazines tuned to his rifle..

Scope should be a variable with two power settings; one at about 25X and the other about 10X. The optics could be hard fixed at either one and be more repeatable than any full power range variable. A set of back up metallic sights could be stored in the buttstock; just in case the optics got sick or died.

Such a configuration will produce sub 8 inch accuracy at 1000 yards with new cases for the 1000 rounds of accurate life of the barrel. It's been happening since about 1970. No sniper rifle made today has that level of accuracy specs.

 

[jmorris]

Pick an action that functions reliably either crf or push feed or both but make sure it won't ice up, bog down with dust, rust overnight, or fall apart under high pressure

Or make it black and pretty cheap call it "the tactical super sniper rifle" and chamber it in a new round called the 6.5 widow maker or 6.8 black widow (doesn't really matter what it will do ballisticly but it should have little recoil, the name is key here and it needs to seem "different", remember there are lots of folks that think the 300 blk is superior to the 30-06 just because the name is cooler and it is newer, that also why you don't want to go with some "old" boring caliber) there will be lots of folks looking for "sniper" rifles standing in line.

 

[Jim Watson]

Accuracy International did this back in the '80s... and are still doing it.

I like Tim Mullin's crack about the AI. He said he had a very custom rifle on Remington action that was about 90% as accurate as his AI at half the weight. He knew which one he would rather hump in the field. Now if you are hunkering down to shoot a hundred rounds from one place...

Scope should be a variable with two power settings; one at about 25X and the other about 10X.

I had that conversation with the president of Leupold at SHOT one year. Everybody advertises the wide zoom range of their variable scope. Handy if you are shooting everything from 400 yard varmints to 40 yard bear with one rifle, but who does that any more? A two-fold variable or a two position scope like the old Weaver would be good for target and sniping, probably sturdier, lighter, and cheaper.

 

[Kendal Black]

Perhaps you could offer several options for the trigger. There are several good ideas out there and different people like different things. You could, for example, offer a SSG-style set trigger, a two stage, and the front paddle (glocky-looking) type that is popular these days. You could then send dimensions to Timney, Jewell and the other usual suspects for yet more options...

It's an area of rifle setup that people obsess about, perhaps in excess of real gains from switching from one kind to another. But, as the hamburger guy said, given the choice, people like choices.

 

[Dog Soldier]

The original American Snipers were enlisted from the many Frontier Hunters. The most famous was Tim Murphy. Tim influenced the outcome of the American Revolution outcome with lead round ball.
From reading this thread it is apparent that modern Military precision shooting is very influenced by the knowledgeable civilian marksman. It is encouraging to know we have so much serious knowledge on shooting and equipment.

 

[Kendal Black]

The original American Snipers were enlisted from the many Frontier Hunters. The most famous was Tim Murphy. Tim influenced the outcome of the American Revolution outcome with lead round ball.
From reading this thread it is apparent that modern Military precision shooting is very influenced by the knowledgeable civilian marksman. It is encouraging to know we have so much serious knowledge on shooting and equipment.

That's one of my arguments for promoting a strong 'gun culture.' Many advances have come from gun cranks experimenting on the back forty, and from little shops trying to come up with something just a bit better.

 

[horsey300]

Or make it black and pretty cheap call it "the tactical super sniper rifle" and chamber it in a new round called the 6.5 widow maker or 6.8 black widow (doesn't really matter what it will do ballisticly but it should have little recoil, the name is key here and it needs to seem "different", remember there are lots of folks that think the 300 blk is superior to the 30-06 just because the name is cooler and it is newer, that also why you don't want to go with some "old" boring caliber) there will be lots of folks looking for "sniper" rifles standing in line.

maybe a 6.5 Long Range Sniper sold in a Sniper Tactical Operative Precision layout. Neck a .243 win up to the 6.5 and we're in business!

 

[Kendal Black]

Detachable box magazines seem to have won the day, so far as new rifle designs are concerned. The AI style works quite well.

An argument could be made for a Johnson-style fixed magazine that loads via the side of the magazine, using strippers or single rounds. Such a magazine can be topped up at any time, that is its advantage. But people these days are habituated to the detachable box, so offering something different might be a tough sell.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

jmar, as you can see from the responses here, there is a lot that goes into a rifle meant for practical long range shooting. The last thing we need is the media calling any scoped bolt-gun a "sniper rifle". Honestly, a more accurate term would be "sniper's rifle" - since we are talking about the kind of rifle used by a sniper.

My answer to your broad OP:
- Folding stock
- Accept AI pattern mags and/or AR10/etc mags (or both, ie the Ruger Precision)
- Integrated pic rail with a 20MOA+ cant
- Obviously a free-floating barrel
- Threaded 5/8x24
- Adjustable trigger
- 70deg or less bolt lift
- large bolt knob
- one-piece bolt body (to include the knob)
- barrel-nut system like the Savage, Ruger Precision, AR10, etc

Sad thing is, there are several rifles that meet this criteria in most ways. I recommend that you get into long-range shooting with a Ruger Precision/Savage/etc and SWFA 10x Mil/Mil, practice, then participate in some practical long-range competitions. That will give you an idea of what works.

Side note: For routine "social work" at 1k yards? 300WM/WSM, 7mm, etc or a 338LM please. Yeah, my 6.5cm can do it, but if I was going to war, I'd take a magnum.

 

[jmorris]

maybe a 6.5 Long Range Sniper sold in a Sniper Tactical Operative Precision layout. Neck a .243 win up to the 6.5 and we're in business!

That sounds like a winner. Don't forget rails, lots of rails, quad rails are even better than a single rail, need lots of places to snap on the rail covers to keep them from catching on any and everything.