sacp81170a
Member
Don't forget Opportunity and Ability.
Sniper, rifle, what do I need...
- Thread starter anymanusa
- Start date
- Status
Don't forget Opportunity and Ability.
What is the budget for the glass? How far are you seriously shooting? Do you want it more for the hunting side or more for the absolute precision side?
Many hunters like a low powered light weight scope as it allows a wide FOV and good enough precision to hit vitals. Target shooters care nothing about FOV and want the biggest magnification they can get. The tactical shooter is a bit of a different bread. Often they want a mix of decent FOV to see the "action" yet need to be absolutely sure they hit where they intend. If this is strictly a range rifle to look like a tactical rifle I would tend to lean more towards a higher variable magnification scope with a smaller FOV. If you were looking at this to be a true "tactical" rifle to the T then you may want to go with something with a fixed 10x or even something like a 2.5-10x. The problem here is a true "sniper" is going to have glass worth more than many people's automobiles cost. It is one item in a system that absolutely CANNOT fail for any reason. When you see a $3000 scope sitting on a $3000 rifle it seems a bit overkill but when lives depend on it in reality it is a small price. When we talk about building ourselves rifles that imitate these "tactical" rifles often a $500 rifle with a $300 scope will do more than enough, be accurate and precise enough, and not waste all that extra money.
So the real question comes down to what you want to spend and how close of a replica you want your rifle to be. If you could use the rifle with another purpose, such as long range target shooting or long range hunting then the need changes as well.
I would pick Leupold as an absolute bottom line for a "tactical" rifle build. Schmidt and Bender makes some great optics that often end on the real sniper rifles. US Optics makes some great optics. Swarovski is right up there along with the better Zeiss line. If you want a build that looks "tactical" but doesn't need to have the utmost reliability that a person shooting at people would need then things can relax quite a bit on price and basically anything Japan, Europe, USA or certain Philippine made will do fine and the options/features are up to what the shooter wants.
Many hunters like a low powered light weight scope as it allows a wide FOV and good enough precision to hit vitals. Target shooters care nothing about FOV and want the biggest magnification they can get. The tactical shooter is a bit of a different bread. Often they want a mix of decent FOV to see the "action" yet need to be absolutely sure they hit where they intend. If this is strictly a range rifle to look like a tactical rifle I would tend to lean more towards a higher variable magnification scope with a smaller FOV. If you were looking at this to be a true "tactical" rifle to the T then you may want to go with something with a fixed 10x or even something like a 2.5-10x. The problem here is a true "sniper" is going to have glass worth more than many people's automobiles cost. It is one item in a system that absolutely CANNOT fail for any reason. When you see a $3000 scope sitting on a $3000 rifle it seems a bit overkill but when lives depend on it in reality it is a small price. When we talk about building ourselves rifles that imitate these "tactical" rifles often a $500 rifle with a $300 scope will do more than enough, be accurate and precise enough, and not waste all that extra money.
So the real question comes down to what you want to spend and how close of a replica you want your rifle to be. If you could use the rifle with another purpose, such as long range target shooting or long range hunting then the need changes as well.
I would pick Leupold as an absolute bottom line for a "tactical" rifle build. Schmidt and Bender makes some great optics that often end on the real sniper rifles. US Optics makes some great optics. Swarovski is right up there along with the better Zeiss line. If you want a build that looks "tactical" but doesn't need to have the utmost reliability that a person shooting at people would need then things can relax quite a bit on price and basically anything Japan, Europe, USA or certain Philippine made will do fine and the options/features are up to what the shooter wants.
ctdonath
Member
He is asking about sniper rifles. He may not believe that any of us actually have one (false), but that's irrelevant to the fact that he's asking about how to get/build one.
See my first post on the subject.
I wouldn't call Nikon a non-quality optic.
What is that? A Buckmaster or Prostaff?
My dad and mom use Prostaffs on their hunting rifles and the seem to do just find. From looking through the glass on the Prostaff, it isn't far off of the clarity in my Leupold Mark 4.
Optics can have all sort of bells and whistles, but really when you get good glass and the ability to hold zero, you have most of it beat. When you have to dial in the dope, you may need more ability to return to zero, more erector range, maybe a zero stop.
But if you sight in at one distance and stay there or use hold-overs, you will not need the above features.
-- John
sacp81170a
Member
Sounds like a fine precision rifle to me...
benzy2 has given a better answer than any of us so far.
Go to http://www.snipershide.com and spend a couple of days reading.
woodybrighton
member
You could write a large check to accuracy international and walk away with more or less an issue sniper rifle for a lot of European military and leo etc.
Or buy a cheap mosin as used by arguably the best military sniper ever finish bloke 500 kills didn't like scopes.
though a bit of work on your dpm rifle would get you most of the way rest of the way is practice practice practice.
then get out the sewing kit make your own ghillie suit and go for a 5km crawl
enjoy
then find a hedge sit in it for a week
Or buy a cheap mosin as used by arguably the best military sniper ever finish bloke 500 kills didn't like scopes.
though a bit of work on your dpm rifle would get you most of the way rest of the way is practice practice practice.
then get out the sewing kit make your own ghillie suit and go for a 5km crawl
enjoy
then find a hedge sit in it for a week
Carl N. Brown
Member
A sniper rifle is not a thing that you can buy. A sniper rifle is an organic, evolving entity that grows from a seed or egg like a living thing. A sniper rifle is really the discipline, knowledge and experience of the sniper. The physical equipment is the least important part.
ctdonath
Member
I think it's abundantly clear he's looking for a "sniper" rifle.
Sniping isn't so much about the tool as about the symbiosis of man and tool to achieve a difficult goal.
When you're pushing 1000 yards, you're talking about hold-overs of 50+ feet. You don't use hold-overs then, you use the elevation turret.
Good issue. For the implied application, you'll end up spending as much or more on the glass as on the gun.
This is true, hence my initial focus on the few key points (match ammo, mildot scope, sloped mount) which will get you accuracy on unknown distances to 1000 yards. Beyond those points, the classic sniper will tweak the platform as needed and as he grows into the tool, growing the tool into himself at the same time.
Sniping isn't so much about the tool as about the symbiosis of man and tool to achieve a difficult goal.
woodybrighton
member
http://www.impactguns.com/store/ai_rifles.html
$4500 RIFLE
$2500 SCOPE
$1000 FOR BITS AND BOBS
plus $$$$$$$$$$$$ for ammo and range time
edited for getting zeros wrong
$4500 RIFLE
$2500 SCOPE
$1000 FOR BITS AND BOBS
plus $$$$$$$$$$$$ for ammo and range time
edited for getting zeros wrong
Last edited:
Bufford t. Justice
Member
sarduy
Member
+1 hehehe,
and without anyone see you
woodybrighton
member
ok come and take my guns away got carried away with the zeros.
sorry I'm English not allowed guns well not strictly true nearest range is 70 miles away so might as well be banned
On dartmoor once stalking away as you do group of hikers practically stand on me having a discussion where they were couldn't resist standing up and showing them where they were
They nearly jumped out of there skins
thats a very shiny toy is that a short barrel?
sorry I'm English not allowed guns well not strictly true nearest range is 70 miles away so might as well be banned
On dartmoor once stalking away as you do group of hikers practically stand on me having a discussion where they were couldn't resist standing up and showing them where they were
They nearly jumped out of there skins
thats a very shiny toy is that a short barrel?
BruceRDucer
Member
sacp81170a
Opportunity and ability?
Well, um, I know a little about opportunity, and nothing about ability.
Opportunity and ability?
Well, um, I know a little about opportunity, and nothing about ability.
Anymanusa,
A lot of people do not realize the commitment involved in obtaining a true precision long-range rifle. I don't want to persuade you otherwise, but it takes a good deal of money and time. A lot of the effort is involved in producing the ammunition required. If you ever want a chance at getting 1/2MOA groups at 1000 yards, the BC difference alone between packaged bullets makes that near impossible. Bullet pointing dies need to be used. I have seen them effect flight paths over 1.5 feet at 1000 yards on match bullets run through them. You will be neck-turning your cases, weighing brass individually and grouping them by weight, seating near the rifling lands, and the list goes on. Finding the correct ammunition design alone takes a lot of time.
Your barrel is a huge factor. The lapping process and chamber will take a large toll on long-range accuracy. The barrel will need to be matched to your action. The headspace needs to be set perfectly. Like others have said, it makes sense to spend a lot on quality optics. The advantage a clear image at 25-40X will give you is worth more than the cost of the scope.
I myself don't envision a semi-auto rifle as a long-range precision instrument from the get-go. It can be made into one, but it makes more sense to design your rifle on a precision bolt-action. There are less variables involved which can effect accuracy, and that by all means is what you want. You should build heavy and aim to reduce recoil. Recoil makes it hard for even experienced shooters to obtain their best groups. The first goal would be to stay away from it and fire lighter bullets. The 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges are known for this sweet spot that they fall into: moderate BCs with low recoil.
Even having all of the good precision materials involved won't make you a good shooter. You need to become one by using your tool thoroughly, and that means spending a lot of money on reloading supplies and match bullets. You should fire a lot of rounds when you practice. I won't set that number, but it should be a few hours of shooting non-stop besides target changing. You want to experience all that can be put out in front of you, and 50 rounds each time out isn't going to do that.
No offense to the forum, but if you want to learn precision shooting, get out of this "big-balls battlezone" here and go over to a precision shooting forum like http://www.benchrest.com/forums/. You will likely learn more there in a few hours about precision shooting than you have known in a lifetime.
A lot of people do not realize the commitment involved in obtaining a true precision long-range rifle. I don't want to persuade you otherwise, but it takes a good deal of money and time. A lot of the effort is involved in producing the ammunition required. If you ever want a chance at getting 1/2MOA groups at 1000 yards, the BC difference alone between packaged bullets makes that near impossible. Bullet pointing dies need to be used. I have seen them effect flight paths over 1.5 feet at 1000 yards on match bullets run through them. You will be neck-turning your cases, weighing brass individually and grouping them by weight, seating near the rifling lands, and the list goes on. Finding the correct ammunition design alone takes a lot of time.
Your barrel is a huge factor. The lapping process and chamber will take a large toll on long-range accuracy. The barrel will need to be matched to your action. The headspace needs to be set perfectly. Like others have said, it makes sense to spend a lot on quality optics. The advantage a clear image at 25-40X will give you is worth more than the cost of the scope.
I myself don't envision a semi-auto rifle as a long-range precision instrument from the get-go. It can be made into one, but it makes more sense to design your rifle on a precision bolt-action. There are less variables involved which can effect accuracy, and that by all means is what you want. You should build heavy and aim to reduce recoil. Recoil makes it hard for even experienced shooters to obtain their best groups. The first goal would be to stay away from it and fire lighter bullets. The 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges are known for this sweet spot that they fall into: moderate BCs with low recoil.
Even having all of the good precision materials involved won't make you a good shooter. You need to become one by using your tool thoroughly, and that means spending a lot of money on reloading supplies and match bullets. You should fire a lot of rounds when you practice. I won't set that number, but it should be a few hours of shooting non-stop besides target changing. You want to experience all that can be put out in front of you, and 50 rounds each time out isn't going to do that.
No offense to the forum, but if you want to learn precision shooting, get out of this "big-balls battlezone" here and go over to a precision shooting forum like http://www.benchrest.com/forums/. You will likely learn more there in a few hours about precision shooting than you have known in a lifetime.
ctdonath
Member
On that note, consider your goal: are you trying for extreme precision at long distances while stuck to a bench, or are you trying to hit a man-sized target at arbitrary range under field conditions? Both are fine goals, just know which one you're after.
woodybrighton
member
be prepared to knaw your own arm off with boredom if your not really really really into precision shooting though
ran into some of the people who go to century range down in Bisley with proper target rifles and iron sights at 1000yds.
vs sighted L96 (accuracy international aw model basically)
Exit several newbie snipers with egos suitably crushed massively:fire
ran into some of the people who go to century range down in Bisley with proper target rifles and iron sights at 1000yds
.vs sighted L96 (accuracy international aw model basically)
Exit several newbie snipers with egos suitably crushed massively:fire
OP
OP
anymanusa
Member
Uh, thanks for the replies... I think.Okay, just to clarify; what I meant by 'sniper' was a rifle that I could sit at a bench with, or lay prone with, and hold my hand on the pistol grip (palmswelled), with my finger on the trigger and comfortably rest my check on the buttstock, and looking through a high quality optic, squeeze off round after round at targets up to a 1000yds, without flinching, or moving much, or fatiguing, or being easily identified at even holding an ammunitions-firing device, and hold 1/2moa groups consistently.
I highly doubt that I will ever hunt with said rifle. Rifle will be 'there' if I ever need it.
Is that a run on sentence? It seemed appropriate.
woodybrighton
member
so an awful lot of cash outlay and an awful lot of range time in your future I predict grasshopper
plus some sewing lessons if you want to perfect the ghillie suit
plus some sewing lessons if you want to perfect the ghillie suit
Tarvis
Member
+1. Seems like lots of folks here would rather talk about how you are/will/can not be a sniper rather than tell the poor bastard what rifle/cartridge/scope combo you would use for long range precision shooting.
It's hard to find a good answer when 50% of the posts are liberal approaches to how he is asking the question.
takhtakaal
Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 853
anymanusa said:
Riiiiiiiight. You watch a lot of movies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drr9nglNHxU
For whatever reason it is that you don't want to be "identified as holding an ammunitions-firing device," it doesn't sound very above-board, and possibly outside the lines of the law.
Mods?
Powderman
Member
anymanusa:
I think that Matt304 best outlined what you will need for that kind of accuracy. There are plenty of great answers and information in this thread--but the plain, hard truth is this: You WILL pay, and pay handsomely, for a rifle capable of the precision you have noted.
Many, many rifles are capable of shooting 1" or even under at 100 yards. Accuracy in a rifle depends on removing as many variables as you can--in the arm, the ammunition, and the glass.
You can almost bet your bottom dollar that you will NOT find accuracy like this off the shelf. There are some rifles that will deliver, but get out the checkbook and have the defibrillator ready.
If you want, you can have a rifle built that will deliver sub-MOA 1000 yard accuracy. Here are some of the things you will have to get:
1. First, the heart of the rifle--the action. You can take a good Remington, Winchester, Savage or what-have-you, have the action worked over by a COMPETENT machinist/gunsmith who can true and blueprint the action. All slop must be removed from the bolt, and the boltface must be perpendicular and perfectly square to the chamber, with 100% contact upon locking along all surfaces. You can also purchase an action approaching these standards off the shelf from BAT Machining, Kelbly (makers of the Stolle actions), Nesika Bay or others. I have heard some pretty good reports about the new Savage precision actions, too.
2. Your barrel must compliment the action well. Mounting, indexing, timing or the barrel MUST be perfect--or as close as a human can make it. The bore must be smooth with a good clean internal finish. You will pay for a good barrel because of the work that goes into it. All of the well known barrel makers--Douglas, Hart, Shilen, McGowen, Obermeyer, Kreiger to name a few--make premium barrels for precision shooting. Of these, perhaps the two go-to barrels for the precision crowd are Obermeyer and Kreiger--the only two I know of that still do single-point cut rifling.
3. Now to glass. You will NOT see the best performance with a bargain scope. Period. There are many scopes that will do the job and 100, 200, even 300 yards. But when you're talking about range and accuracy, quality will win every time. Believe it or not, while Leupold scopes are excellent in quality, they are on the LOW end of the scale when you're talking about long range glass! The ones you will see most often on the long range lines are Nightforce--both the benchrest and the NXS, the excellent Zeiss Diavari lines, Schmidt und Bender, and perhaps a US Optics here and there.
4. Be prepared to spend good coin on the stock, too. The stock must fit you AND the rifle. Lots of precision shooters like McMillan stocks--but right now they're about 8 months backlogged. And, you'll pay to have the stock mounted RIGHT, too.
5. The most important part about precision shooting, though, is not something you can buy--it's patience and meticulous attention to detail. You MUST know EXACTLY what your rifle is going to do, every time you pull the trigger. You MUST accept the fact that your rifle is NOT going to maintain that gilt-edged accuracy forever for extreme long range. Depending on the load, caliber, powder used, bullet used, how fast you shoot, and even how you CLEAN the barrel, you must be willing to change that barrel.
And don't be fooled--cleaning is a VERY important part of precision shooting. For a rifle capable of the accuracy you want, remember this well--it is ENTIRELY possible to RUIN your rifle in ONE session of reckless cleaning! This is a fact, friend. You will spend about enough money to buy a good handgun in getting the proper cleaning equipment for this rifle.
As far as barrel changes go, I know benchrest shooters who actually carry TWO spare barrels with them to the range. One is already on the rifle--this is the warm-up barrel to practice with. The match barrels are in their carriers--and these shooters have the tools with them to CHANGE THEIR BARRELS, AT THE BENCH!!
6. As long as we're on the subject of anal retention, you WILL be reloading--simply because NO ammunition off a commercial line will deliver the accuracy you want--not even the excellent Federal Gold Medal Match. Your barrel will be tight chambered to EXACTLY fit your cartridges. Reloading for a precision rifle involves segregating the cases, sizing and trimming the cases, neck-turning and possibly inside reaming, weighing the cases and marking the bases for a proper index.
You will also either purchase your bullets or swage them yourself. You will be weighing each bullet and measuring them; possibly trimming the meplat as well.
You will be weighing your PRIMERS, because you want the same ignition temperature, duration and percussion impulse for each shot.
You will deburr the inside of the flash holes in each case, and you will uniform each primer pocket. You will be hand-priming each case, and then measuring the seating depth for uniformity.
It goes without saying that you will hand weigh each charge. However, some shooters acquire fine mesh screens of the proper size, and actually sift the powder to get rid of the "fines" that can change ignition rates.
You must then load each cartridge with seating dies outfitted with micrometer adjustments, to make the seating depth the same for each cartridge, and to ensure that the chambered round puts the bullet to the same point at or close to the lands, measured to the thousandths of an inch.
The idea is to load cartridges that will come from that muzzle at the same velocity, each and every time. And once again, patience is the key. Be well aware of the cooling times required between shots--it is entirely possible in a rifle to ruin the rifle's accuracy potential in as few as 20 rounds--if you crank them off too fast, get the area in front of the chamber too hot and burn out the leade in the barrel.
Precision shooting is not for the faint of heart. It is not for the impatient--I have spent 5 to 6 hours at the range firing 25 rounds out of my bench gun. (By the way, mine is built on a Sako single shot action, with McMillan stock, 30" Hart barrel, Canjar single-set trigger and a Kahles scope, chambered in .220 Swift.)
But it's worth it, to leave a good target "nonchalantly" laying on the bench, and seeing the looks on other shooter's faces when they see a quarter sized group--or smaller, on a good day--fired at 200 yards.
And, it's not out of reach--consider the group fired by a young man with a rifle built on a Nesika Bay action, Kreiger barrel, Jewell trigger, McMillan stock and a 12-42x56 Nightforce scope, chambered in 6.5x284. I believe it was right at five inches--shot at 1000 yards.
I think that Matt304 best outlined what you will need for that kind of accuracy. There are plenty of great answers and information in this thread--but the plain, hard truth is this: You WILL pay, and pay handsomely, for a rifle capable of the precision you have noted.
Many, many rifles are capable of shooting 1" or even under at 100 yards. Accuracy in a rifle depends on removing as many variables as you can--in the arm, the ammunition, and the glass.
You can almost bet your bottom dollar that you will NOT find accuracy like this off the shelf. There are some rifles that will deliver, but get out the checkbook and have the defibrillator ready.
If you want, you can have a rifle built that will deliver sub-MOA 1000 yard accuracy. Here are some of the things you will have to get:
1. First, the heart of the rifle--the action. You can take a good Remington, Winchester, Savage or what-have-you, have the action worked over by a COMPETENT machinist/gunsmith who can true and blueprint the action. All slop must be removed from the bolt, and the boltface must be perpendicular and perfectly square to the chamber, with 100% contact upon locking along all surfaces. You can also purchase an action approaching these standards off the shelf from BAT Machining, Kelbly (makers of the Stolle actions), Nesika Bay or others. I have heard some pretty good reports about the new Savage precision actions, too.
2. Your barrel must compliment the action well. Mounting, indexing, timing or the barrel MUST be perfect--or as close as a human can make it. The bore must be smooth with a good clean internal finish. You will pay for a good barrel because of the work that goes into it. All of the well known barrel makers--Douglas, Hart, Shilen, McGowen, Obermeyer, Kreiger to name a few--make premium barrels for precision shooting. Of these, perhaps the two go-to barrels for the precision crowd are Obermeyer and Kreiger--the only two I know of that still do single-point cut rifling.
3. Now to glass. You will NOT see the best performance with a bargain scope. Period. There are many scopes that will do the job and 100, 200, even 300 yards. But when you're talking about range and accuracy, quality will win every time. Believe it or not, while Leupold scopes are excellent in quality, they are on the LOW end of the scale when you're talking about long range glass! The ones you will see most often on the long range lines are Nightforce--both the benchrest and the NXS, the excellent Zeiss Diavari lines, Schmidt und Bender, and perhaps a US Optics here and there.
4. Be prepared to spend good coin on the stock, too. The stock must fit you AND the rifle. Lots of precision shooters like McMillan stocks--but right now they're about 8 months backlogged. And, you'll pay to have the stock mounted RIGHT, too.
5. The most important part about precision shooting, though, is not something you can buy--it's patience and meticulous attention to detail. You MUST know EXACTLY what your rifle is going to do, every time you pull the trigger. You MUST accept the fact that your rifle is NOT going to maintain that gilt-edged accuracy forever for extreme long range. Depending on the load, caliber, powder used, bullet used, how fast you shoot, and even how you CLEAN the barrel, you must be willing to change that barrel.
And don't be fooled--cleaning is a VERY important part of precision shooting. For a rifle capable of the accuracy you want, remember this well--it is ENTIRELY possible to RUIN your rifle in ONE session of reckless cleaning! This is a fact, friend. You will spend about enough money to buy a good handgun in getting the proper cleaning equipment for this rifle.
As far as barrel changes go, I know benchrest shooters who actually carry TWO spare barrels with them to the range. One is already on the rifle--this is the warm-up barrel to practice with. The match barrels are in their carriers--and these shooters have the tools with them to CHANGE THEIR BARRELS, AT THE BENCH!!
6. As long as we're on the subject of anal retention
, you WILL be reloading--simply because NO ammunition off a commercial line will deliver the accuracy you want--not even the excellent Federal Gold Medal Match. Your barrel will be tight chambered to EXACTLY fit your cartridges. Reloading for a precision rifle involves segregating the cases, sizing and trimming the cases, neck-turning and possibly inside reaming, weighing the cases and marking the bases for a proper index.You will also either purchase your bullets or swage them yourself. You will be weighing each bullet and measuring them; possibly trimming the meplat as well.
You will be weighing your PRIMERS, because you want the same ignition temperature, duration and percussion impulse for each shot.
You will deburr the inside of the flash holes in each case, and you will uniform each primer pocket. You will be hand-priming each case, and then measuring the seating depth for uniformity.
It goes without saying that you will hand weigh each charge. However, some shooters acquire fine mesh screens of the proper size, and actually sift the powder to get rid of the "fines" that can change ignition rates.
You must then load each cartridge with seating dies outfitted with micrometer adjustments, to make the seating depth the same for each cartridge, and to ensure that the chambered round puts the bullet to the same point at or close to the lands, measured to the thousandths of an inch.
The idea is to load cartridges that will come from that muzzle at the same velocity, each and every time. And once again, patience is the key. Be well aware of the cooling times required between shots--it is entirely possible in a rifle to ruin the rifle's accuracy potential in as few as 20 rounds--if you crank them off too fast, get the area in front of the chamber too hot and burn out the leade in the barrel.
Precision shooting is not for the faint of heart. It is not for the impatient--I have spent 5 to 6 hours at the range firing 25 rounds out of my bench gun. (By the way, mine is built on a Sako single shot action, with McMillan stock, 30" Hart barrel, Canjar single-set trigger and a Kahles scope, chambered in .220 Swift.)
But it's worth it, to leave a good target "nonchalantly" laying on the bench, and seeing the looks on other shooter's faces when they see a quarter sized group--or smaller, on a good day--fired at 200 yards.
And, it's not out of reach--consider the group fired by a young man with a rifle built on a Nesika Bay action, Kreiger barrel, Jewell trigger, McMillan stock and a 12-42x56 Nightforce scope, chambered in 6.5x284. I believe it was right at five inches--shot at 1000 yards.
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