So here's my problem with optics on an AR-15.

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I know what you are saying about someone holding them I had a pic like that around here some place...

The flip covers came with the Leupold but they are made by Butler Creek and you can position the to flip up down or to the side.

I think they are great for minimizing the range crap getting on your lens while waiting to shoot.

Cameron
 
With a red dot one can acquire a target having both eyes open offering a better field of view for clearing rooms in a cqb engagement.
Hmmm... I have no problem using irons with both eyes open.

Red dots have their merits, but this is a practice/skill problem, not a sight problem.
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In addition to the low-light benefit of illuminated optics, all optics also speed up sight alignment/sight picture. there is no eye-rear sight-front sight-target, a 4 point system; it's just eye-reticle+target, a 2 point system because the reticle and target appear to be on the same plain, to the eye.



"that was offered in multiple colors other than red."

Wouldn't be a red dot then, would it?

You're arguing semantics now. Not a valid point here anyway, because the OP was about optics in general, not just "red dot" sights.
 
cameron.personal said:
I have noticed a distinct predilection towards the curmudgeon posts on THR and TFL recently I am not sure what it is. Anytime someone posts about a decent semi auto rifle with a nice optic someone pipes in and derides the rifle and optic usually maintaining the only thing one ever needs is a .30-30 lever action or a mosin nagant with iron sights. I think it is more posturing rather than a measured serious response.

While I'm sure them new-fangled lever actions offer some form of advantage, there's no need for anything more than my trusty match-lock. I shoot durn near 3 rounds per minute with it, and can take the wings off of a fly at 2 yards. If I had my druthers, that would be all anyone would use.
 
"You're arguing semantics now."

That's not a bad thing. Words have meaning and I can only read what he posted. He didn't say optics, he said red dots were the be all and end all.

"Semantics is the study of meaning." - the definition
 
Optics improve hit probability.

How much depends on the overall scenario. I'm not convinced that a red dot would improve hit probability for me inside my house, for example. I don't really need to use the sights at all.

WRT fast acquisition, red dots can really improve that, but so does training with irons. Combine the red dot and that training, and you can get the best performance.

It seems to me that many rifle shooters can't handle a long gun worth spit, though.

For the vast majority of the rest of us an optic, either reflex or magnified improves the utility of the firearm.

Accuracy, yes. Past a certain distance, a rifle can be almost wasted without magnification -- but don't tell that to the guys who can routinely hit a military target at 600 yards with A2 sights.

Utility is a conditional thing, though.

Size, weight, complexity, cost, maintenance, points of failure are all increased when you add an optic to the AR. Reliability in rough conditions is decreased.

By how much? Depends, of course.

Is the tradeoff worth it? Probably most of the time.

Still, "utility" is conditional. I find a stainless Ranch Rifle to have more utility than an AR, in some circumstances. It's much sleeker, easier to stash, lighter, and it points better.

Does that mean I'd rather use it in a match at 300 yards, or even 100? No.

"Utility" is a different thing.

Sometimes a heavy, bulky rifle that requires batteries that don't like cold weather, with glass that can break if you drop it on a rock, doesn't off the most utility.
 
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Originally posted by JohnBT:

"You're arguing semantics now."

That's not a bad thing. Words have meaning and I can only read what he posted. He didn't say optics, he said red dots were the be all and end all.

"Semantics is the study of meaning." - the definition

The term "red dot" has become synonymous with any type of non-magnified type sight. I have heard the EOTech, Aimpoint and Reflex all called "red dots" and they are all very different from one another.

It seems to me that the actual accepted meaning of those word used together has become something different than the words mean separately.

Also, because you seem to want to argue, the original post, which is what I referenced, used the word "optics" not just "red dot" type sights.

So here's my problem with optics on an AR-15.

That is the title of this thread
 
Accuracy, yes. Past a certain distance, a rifle can be almost wasted without magnification -- but don't tell that to the guys who can routinely hit a military target at 600 yards with A2 sights.

Whether they'll admit it or not, none of those guys can positively ID a bad guy at 600 meters with iron sights and most can't even pick him out of the background reliably. Target shooting under controlled conditions with irons are much different than battlefield use.

Sometimes a heavy, bulky rifle that requires batteries that don't like cold weather, with glass that can break if you drop it on a rock, doesn't off the most utility.

Dropping an ACOG hard enough to break it would probably be sufficient to take out iron sights as well.
 
Whether they'll admit it or not, none of those guys can positively ID a bad guy at 600 meters with iron sights and most can't even pick him out of the background reliably. Target shooting under controlled conditions with irons are much different than battlefield use.

Yes. I just said they probably wouldn't concur that the rifle is wasted without a scope.:)

Dropping an ACOG hard enough to break it would probably be sufficient to take out iron sights as well.

I'm WAY too cheap to find out.
 
Let's just say that, when I started shooting clays, I found out how little I knew about handling a long gun.

When I went back to a rifle, I found that I could acquire targets faster, shoot followup shots faster, keep both eyes open, and whine a lot less about the sights I had to work with.

I proceeded to win an offhand match with my .30-06.

A lot of guys here do know how to handle a rifle, I'm sure. But I didn't. And IMHO the more you do, the less you worry about the sights, at least out to the distance where irons don't have enough resolution.

That said, an ACOG does make for much better long range shooting than A2 sights, because you can see the !@#% target with a scope.:) But if you can see the target, it's YOU, not the sight, that causes a hit or a miss.

And no, I don't mean to suggest that a red dot doesn't still make target acquisition easier and quicker with practice. I just don't think that it's as necessary a crutch, with practice handling a long gun.
 
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I am in Afghanistan and was issued a Bushmaster with a 14.5" barrel and an Aimpoint. I also have a ARMS flip up BUIS on it that love! I took the Aimpoint off and just use the BUIS unless we are going to be out after dark, peep sights are not so good in low light situations.

J.B.
 
cameron.personal said:
The flip covers came with the Leupold but they are made by Butler Creek and you can position the to flip up down or to the side.
I know that...but what about the down position? Do you find it to be less distracting...any other advantages to flipping down? I am considering it myself if I have the room between the rail and objective.
I am in Afghanistan and was issued a Bushmaster
When did this start? :)
 
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Anytime someone posts about a decent semi auto rifle with a nice optic someone pipes in and derides the rifle and optic usually maintaining the only thing one ever needs is a .30-30 lever action or a mosin nagant with iron sights. I think it is more posturing rather than a measured serious response.
This is so true. Especially the part about posturing.

I'm not sure why this is even an argument. You don't really have to make a choice. I have a number of rifles that have both iron sights and optics (some red dots, some magnified). When I shoot the rifle, I shoot with both sights, about 50/50 split between them. It would not be prudent to only practice with an optic.

The magnified optics do require removal of the optic to use the irons, but I have never found that to be an issue for my use with a good quality QD mount.

For my use and my heavily wooded geography however, I much prefer a red-dot. A properly sighted and co-witnessed red dot allows me to use irons and the optic at will, without needing to remove or adjust anything. I have two AR-15s that put the dot right on the tip of the front sight post. The rear sight is a folding design, but I mostly leave it up and switch to the large "ghost ring" aperture. I can sight the red dot, right through it. Some folks might think this is too busy, but it is not distracting at all and allows me the best of both worlds. I can switch from the red-dot to iron sights at will by merely changing my focus from dot/target to the front sight post.


Restricting yourself to just irons on an AR-15 is tying one hand behind your back when it is not necessary at all unlsee your shooting high power competition or something with such rules.

That said, I do have a couple AR-15s with fixed carry handles and iron sights, but that is just for sentimental reasons and they are range toys, not "go-to" guns.
 
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I am in Afghanistan and was issued a Bushmaster with a 14.5" barrel and an Aimpoint. I also have a ARMS flip up BUIS on it that love! I took the Aimpoint off and just use the BUIS unless we are going to be out after dark, peep sights are not so good in low light situations.

What branch are you in. Bushmaster does not produce M4s for the Military and ARMS #40s are not standard issue either.
 
The sights available for the AR are truely exceptional, second only to those offered by the M1A ;)

And it is nice to be able to fall back on them. And I agree everyone should know how to use them.

But the plane, simple, indisputable fact of the matter is that optics are faster and more accurate than iron sights. Even an unmagnified Aimpoint with a 2 MOA dot is going to allow for greater precision than the standard post on an AR, and will do it faster, with both eyes open. And an ACOG, please...

No iron sight on earth can compare to the precision offered by an ACOG, or other quality magnified optic. And I am absolutely convinced most iron sights will break long before an ACOG, as well.
 
No iron sight on earth can compare to the precision offered by an ACOG, or other quality magnified optic.

Obviously. It's interesting to me that hunters have used scopes routinely for decades, and the military just started.

My only point is that precision may or may not equal utility, depending on the gun's use.

Also, the reason to train recruits with irons isn't necessarily because they need to know how to use them at 600 yards. The reason is because they force you to handle the rifle correctly. If you shoot only with a scope, you can get by without knowing how to handle a rifle, but your accuracy and speed will be forever limited.
 
Hunting and combat are two very different animals. (Har Har)
When you are hunting you need long range accuracy with a single shot. In combat you need close range reliability and durability.

A scope doesn't work well at close range, it limits your Field of view and ability to change targets. in addition you lose durability in a normal scope. Aimpoints, ACOGs, etc are very durable but they don't have much to do with your average scope either.
 
I got to check out an AR with an EOtech a couple days ago. I'm getting an EOtech now.

I love the iron sights as well, but the contrast you get from a dot against the target in any lighting conditions makes the red dots so much nicer - especially for people like me (I'm slightly farsighted).
 
Don't care much for sights that run on batteries.

Have shot the various Aimpoints and EOTechs but still like iron sights best.

I never want to be in a position having to say, "Excuse me Mr. Dirtbag, my batteries are dead. Can I have a few minutes to change them out?"
 
A scope doesn't work well at close range, it limits your Field of view and ability to change targets. in addition you lose durability in a normal scope. Aimpoints, ACOGs, etc are very durable but they don't have much to do with your average scope either.

True on all counts.

The ACOG sure seems to be a scope, from all I can tell. It's just a nice one, and a durable one.

My point about hunting scopes was just that the military didn't really work on them until fairly recently for general use, not that they ever should have used a deer rifle scope.
 
Don't care much for sights that run on batteries.

Have shot the various Aimpoints and EOTechs but still like iron sights best.

I never want to be in a position having to say, "Excuse me Mr. Dirtbag, my batteries are dead. Can I have a few minutes to change them out?"

You do not have to give up on optics merely due to fear of failure of the electronics. That is exactly why I set mine up this way:

dmk said:
I have two AR-15s that put the dot right on the tip of the front sight post. The rear sight is a folding design, but I mostly leave it up and switch to the large "ghost ring" aperture. I can sight the red dot, right through it. Some folks might think this is too busy, but it is not distracting at all and allows me the best of both worlds. I can switch from the red-dot to iron sights at will by merely changing my focus from dot/target to the front sight post.

I have had my batteries die while shooting and I just kept on shooting, reloaded and shot some more without skipping a beat.

Midlengths.JPG
 
Don't care much for sights that run on batteries.

Have shot the various Aimpoints and EOTechs but still like iron sights best.

I never want to be in a position having to say, "Excuse me Mr. Dirtbag, my batteries are dead. Can I have a few minutes to change them out?"

this is a situation where you simply flip up your BUIS and get back into the fight.

Although, I do agree that learning on irons is fundamental. If you can't adjust your sights and hit something out to the range of an AR, then the red dot will not really solve your problem; if anything, it will just get you laughed at more by people on the range who think you wasted your money. If you can't use the steel nobs to adjust your irons, then you'll be just as bad off with a dot that works pretty much the same way.
 
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