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So i want my first rifle for HD and Plinking. Saiga or (gasp) Hi Point?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by indie, Aug 20, 2007.

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  1. indie

    indie Member

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    i was almost sold on a saiga, but now im thinking. Hi point. Not looking to spend more than 400 dollars.

    1. Saiga 7.62x39 rifle, Skeletonized Stock

    Pros
    1. Top Notch Russian AK-47 Reliability/Durability
    2. Value will increase
    3. Can be converted to AK-47 for hi capacity
    4. Longer Range + More Powerful Cartridge
    5. can penetrate cover and body armor
    6. Can hunt with it and can make good shtf type rifle. (if necessarry)
    7. Can get skeleton stock for pistol grip type handling.

    Cons
    1. Ammo harder to find. Costs a bit more than 9mm
    2. Ammo overpenetration. Goes through people and walls. Possible Bad News in home defense situation.
    3. magazines are expensive.



    2. Hi Point 995, ATI Stock
    Pros
    1. Reliable and accurate
    2. Pistol Caliber. Most common caliber. Good for home defense & Plinking
    3. Lower price
    4. Can be easilly souped up with laser, red dot and extra mags
    5. Light weight and maneuverable with pistol grip
    6. 9mm out of 16 inch barrell increases energy
    7. Lifetime Warranty and Good Support
    8. Pistol caliber can be used at indoor range nearby

    Cons
    1. Hi Point negative reputation
    2. ugly and build quality
    3. 10 round mag capacity
    4. Not effective against body armour



    I was almost sold on a saiga, i still really want one, but for practical purposes im starting to lean more towards the hi point.

    magazine costs, 922r hassles preventing higher capacities, inability to use at nearby indoor range, and overpenetration are the big things that neutralized the saiga for my purposes

    the cons of hi point are really no big deal to me. Only high capacity and lack of effectiveness against body armor. With the ATI stock and laser, its a decent looking and functioning rifle.


    anyway, i hope to get some more opinions before i decide. I need your 2 cents.
     
  2. strat81

    strat81 Member

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    1) All Saiga calibers are easy to find. IMO, if Wal-mart carries it, it's "easy to find". Rifle calibers are generally more expensive than pistol calibers.

    2) <Sigh> Go the range with some sheet rock and see how much your 9mm penetrates. Bring a steel entry door too. 9mm penetrates just fine. Miss your target under stress in a populated area, it doesn't matter if you're shooting 223, x39, .40 or 9x19. Same goes for shotguns. For more info on penetration, visit http://www.theboxotruth.com/

    3) They're not cheap, but they are readily available. I don't think hi-point mags are $10 like AR-15 mags are.


    GET THE SAIGA. Besides price, it is better in every way.
     
  3. EdLaver

    EdLaver Member

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    That seems like alot of hassle to get the ati stock and the hi-point. I suggest spending a little extra and just getting the Beretta CX4. It's already good to go out of the box and mags arent that expensive for it. Plus you can get higher capacity mags for it too. I completely understand the pistol caliber carbine / over penetration of 7.62 x 39 thing and in my opinion either way you go...Beretta or Saiga or Hi-Point you should be satisfied.
     
  4. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

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    Go with the Saiga. The Hipoint is a fun gun, but I'd prefer a Saiga myself. It is just a better rifle to me.
     
  5. indie

    indie Member

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    strat. My local walmarts dont stock 7.62. Which would be the caliber i want if i get a saiga. I cant just run to the store and grab a box anytime. Especially not at a good price. So thats why im saying availability, as in convenience of being able to pick it up whenever i run across it. I wont just happen to be in a store and find a good price on 7.62. I will be able to do that with 9mm.

    Also, on # 2, 7.62 is much more likely to zip through a human body and then through drywall.
    If 7.62 was not a notorious penetrating round and was as commonly available, i would not even be considering the high point right now.


    to Ed. I can find the hi point in the ATI stock configuration with a laser and red dot for around 300. And have basically the same functionality and look of the Beretta Storm for alot less. Only thing is the magazine capacity =(. But i'm on a tight budget currently and i could really get a both the high point and the saiga for about the price of the beretta. If i had that much available to invest in a rifle, id definitely get the saiga and the high point. I might end up eventually getting both, but right now, i'm looking at getting the better rifle for my needs.
     
  6. indie

    indie Member

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    i had a feeling everyone would say go with the saiga.
    but then at the same time, everyone says an AK is not a good home defense weapon

    and hd/personal defense is my primary purpose. Followed by fun and other utility.

    i have been drooling over a saiga for about a month. LOL but my mind is telling me that i should get the more practical home defense weapon.

    I also wouldnt have as much opportunity to shoot the saiga as a pistol carbine.
     
  7. MrTuffPaws

    MrTuffPaws Member

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    Comparing 9mm to 7.62x39 is like....well, comparing 9mm to 7.62x39. One is a handgun ammo, and the other is a rifle round.

    9mm is a good defense round. It will still go through walls like butter though. In the land of military rounds, the 7.62x39 is consider a good penetrator, so expect more walls to get holed and what ever is behind them as well to.

    If you are really worried about over penetration, you should go with your normal run of the mill pump shotgun.
     
  8. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Member

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    Mags aren't really hard to find, I grabbed 3 OEM 10 round mags from Krebs for $18 (.223) a piece... (7.62x39 are usually $16 ea.)
     
  9. indie

    indie Member

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    Mr Tuff Paws for other reasons, i chose to go with a rifle over a shotgun.

    especially considering i have a rather small/petite wife. I have recently gotten her to actually go to the range .. weildability (pistol style grip the saiga skeletonized and hi point), recoil, ability to practice, expense of practice, having to pump to chamber each shot, shot pattern, etc all made me opt for the carbine/rifle over the shotgun.


    Up untill yesterday, i really had my heart set on a saiga because i wanted an ak variant and with it being in my price range, but i really need a home defense primary weapon that my wife can also use easilly, and something we can both get plenty of practice with.

    Saiga, i probably wont get to break out and shoot it very often. While there is an indoor range less than a mile from my home.


    Saiga says i'm the gun you want
    Hi Point says i'm the gun you need.
     
  10. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    This is not even a question.

    Saiga, if it is one-or-the-other.

    The hi-point is a fun little carbine, but the Saiga is a fun little carbine that can also be made into a serious fighting rifle (if it's not serious enough for you in its present trim) with a little bit of elbow grease and a handful of parts. I would not even consider them in the same category (which, they aren't, really...one is a pistol caliber carbine, the other is a rifle caliber carbine...completely different capabilities). Of course, Option C (Get Both) will give you a capable PCC for plinking and an RCC for plinking and other uses. But if I was limited to one, it would be the Saiga without second thoughts or regrets.

    Mike
     
  11. B.D. Turner

    B.D. Turner Member

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    The FBI did a bunch of testing on bullet penetration. The 9mm is no slouch and will keep going and going through walls. I like the hi point and for the money is a great little rifle. If I were going to use it in the house I would get some fragmenting ammo just for that reason. I would not want to live next door to someone who is using a 7.62x39 for his only personal protection.
     
  12. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    I missed this on the first pass.

    This changes the rules a little. And, you put it in the correct terms. Before you decide upon a model, you need to decide which class of weapon you're looking for. Do you want a PCC or a RCC? This is the real question. If you're looking for a PCC, the Saiga need not apply. If you're looking for a RCC, the Hi-point is not an option.

    Decide THAT, and the choice is obvious. However, only you can decide if it is worth it to have greater power and flexibility that you will be able to shoot less often, or if it is better to have a more limted rifle that you can easily take shooting.

    Mike
     
  13. Lashlarue

    Lashlarue member

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    Laser995.jpg I have the tricked out hi-point, surprizingly accurate with the laser sighted in for 50 yds, sub 2" groups from a rest. 200 rds without a hiccup, although I did fine tune the mag release to handle both the oem and pro-mag magazines.
     
  14. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Member

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    Would be nice if they made the Highpoint run off of Glock magazines... {/wistful thinking...

    Here's a tricked out HP carbine from the Saiga forum:
    hipointcarrailgriprd2-1.jpg
     
  15. indie

    indie Member

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    Mike what is PCC and RCC? Still new to the lingo.

    edit, answered my own question

    Pistol Caliber or Rifle Caliber

    the answer is i want BOTH lol. But At the moment, home defense is the primary concern making the rifle caliber less practical for me.
     
  16. indie

    indie Member

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    lash, thats how i want my hi point configured if i end up gettting one.

    its just so hard with the saiga calling me to commit lol
     
  17. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    Hi-Point is accurate but unergonomic, hard to clean. I would advise Saiga.
     
  18. megjur

    megjur Member

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    You can get a Saiga in .223, cuts down on the overpenetration problems.
     
  19. strat81

    strat81 Member

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    Bummer. My Wal-mart carries 7.62x39, .223, .308, and 12ga (i.e., ALL of the Saiga calibers). x39 is not an odd caliber and most gun shops should carry it as well as gun shows. It's also readily available over the net. Your profile says you're in South Carolina, so there aren't any ammo shipping restrictions to SC that I'm aware of.

    However, my Walmart doesn't carry premium SD pistol ammo. Have to go to a gun shop, gun show, or the internet for that.

    If you want your wife to use it, .223 might be a better choice since it recoils even less than x39.

    Of course, I buy my 7.62x39 by the case (occasionally 1/2 case) from AIM.

    Most FMJ rounds can overpenetrate, rifle or pistol. If you're loading up with x39, look at the soft point and hollowpoint options from Wolf as well as the premium stuff from Winchester.

    Why are you set on 7.62x39? .223 is a very good round for SD/HD and there are plenty of ammo options out there for it.

    If you want a low cost carbine, don't forget Kel-Tec. They make them in pistol and rifle calibers and the rifle caliber carbines use AR-15 mags which are cheap and plentiful. I'd take one of their guns over a Hi-point. I'm sure the Hi-point is a fun plinker, but I would not trust my family's lives to one.
     
  20. Lashlarue

    Lashlarue member

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    Saiga 16" carbine in 223 is on my wish list. I have a K_T P-11 and almost bought an SU-2000, but that gun has the worst trigger I've ever felt and does not lend itself to scopes. The fold up feature is ok , if you're going to rob a bank, but my last one made me enough to retire on.:)
     
  21. indie

    indie Member

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    cost of ammo is a definite major concern as is the cost of the weapon, cheaper ammo = more practice for me and less of an argument about gun related money expenditures with the wife since we are still "getting on our feet".. So if i get an inexpensive gun, and inexpensive ammo that is capable of serving the home defense purpose that is great, i can hold off on the guns i just "want", at least until i can make a little bit more money.
     
  22. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    If you're worried about penetration get the .223 over the 7.62x39.

    Basically the Saiga beats the Hi-Point in every way possible.

    The only advantage I can think of is ammo cost and shooting on indoor ranges. But actually engaging another person in a gun battle? Saiga, every single time.

    More range. More power. And it will last longer than you will.

    Practice with cheap ammo. Keep something like Hornady TAP in the gun at home.
     
  23. strat81

    strat81 Member

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    If ammo cost is a major concern, don't buy a rifle caliber anything. Even Wolf rifle ammo is ~$200/case now vs ~$150/case for 9mm. Combine that with the rifle issues your range has, and it seems like a pistol or PCC is your only choice.

    PCCs don't store as nicely as a pistol and that may be an issue if you have young ones running around (now or in the somewhat-near future). If I was in your shoes, I'd get over to www.summitgunbroker.com and pick up a LE-trade S&W 5906. All steel so recoil is minimal, mags are cheap and plentiful, and the gun itself has a great track record for reliability, dependability, and accuracy. Plus it'll retain its value much better than a Hi-point. Stoke it with some Hornaday TAP, Remington Golden Sabers, or similar ammo when it's in the nightstand and practice with WWB.
     
  24. indie

    indie Member

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    lol you guys are making this harder..LMAO..i really appreciate all of the help...im learning!
     
  25. indie

    indie Member

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    i currently have a 357 mag k frame revolver and i love it.. My wife shot it for the first time about 3 weeks ago and had a good time, after not wanting a gun in the house at all.. She will be going back to the range to shoot my best friends Ruger 9mm and Glock 22 next month.

    We are planning to start trying to have a baby at the beginning of next year. So there are kids in the near future.
     
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