So i want my first rifle for HD and Plinking. Saiga or (gasp) Hi Point?
- Thread starter indie
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Okay, I sell guns for a living, and I'm going to break this down for you like I would break it down for a customer.
First off, what is your mission? You need to define what you are looking for.
If it is primarily for fun, that is one thing. If it is primarily for home defense, that is another.
I'm going to assume that this is for serious business. Because if it if for fun, pick the one that you think looks the coolest.
9mm vs. 5.56 vs. 7.62x39
I got to sit through an 8 hour wound ballistics class two weeks ago. We looked at a couple hundred autopsy photos. Pistol cartridge loses. Period. Not even close to comparable.
Your home defense gun is for one purpose. Stop a threat. It isn't for fun. It isn't to look cool. It may do those things, but it is primarly to put down a threat as quickly as possible.
A pistol cartridge is a pistol cartridge, whether you fire it out of a long gun or not. It is still relatively feeble. It may very well do the job, but it will never do the job as well as a rifle bullet.
Now for penetration, 9mm penetrates like a son of a gun, still. Anything that can punch a hole in a person is going to punch a wall.
There are some excellent choices in rifle bullets that will not penetrate as deeply because of velocity and bullet construction.
That's why I say if you're going to use it in the house, get the 5.56 Saiga. It has more ammo to choose from than 7.62x39 and you can choose a load that will have less chance of overpenetration.
Either of the rifle cartridges will enable you to reach out about 5 times further than you could with the pistol caliber gun if your situation changes.
Even if ammo costs 50% more, are you buying this to plink, or are you buying it to defend your family?
First off, what is your mission? You need to define what you are looking for.
If it is primarily for fun, that is one thing. If it is primarily for home defense, that is another.
I'm going to assume that this is for serious business. Because if it if for fun, pick the one that you think looks the coolest.
9mm vs. 5.56 vs. 7.62x39
I got to sit through an 8 hour wound ballistics class two weeks ago. We looked at a couple hundred autopsy photos. Pistol cartridge loses. Period. Not even close to comparable.
Your home defense gun is for one purpose. Stop a threat. It isn't for fun. It isn't to look cool. It may do those things, but it is primarly to put down a threat as quickly as possible.
A pistol cartridge is a pistol cartridge, whether you fire it out of a long gun or not. It is still relatively feeble. It may very well do the job, but it will never do the job as well as a rifle bullet.
Now for penetration, 9mm penetrates like a son of a gun, still. Anything that can punch a hole in a person is going to punch a wall.
There are some excellent choices in rifle bullets that will not penetrate as deeply because of velocity and bullet construction.
That's why I say if you're going to use it in the house, get the 5.56 Saiga. It has more ammo to choose from than 7.62x39 and you can choose a load that will have less chance of overpenetration.
Either of the rifle cartridges will enable you to reach out about 5 times further than you could with the pistol caliber gun if your situation changes.
Even if ammo costs 50% more, are you buying this to plink, or are you buying it to defend your family?
MD_Willington
Member
and I'll throw this in to temp you even further on the Saiga...
{cue spooky mesmerizing music}
Look at the swirly graphics... you know you want the Saiga.... all the cool kids own a Saiga... the Saiga goes well with Nike shoes... oooooo
{cue spooky mesmerizing music}
Look at the swirly graphics... you know you want the Saiga.... all the cool kids own a Saiga... the Saiga goes well with Nike shoes... oooooo
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indie
Member
Correia, thanks for the breakdown. Home defense is primary, plinking/fun is secondary. But i do take in consideration my ability to practice with the weapon. And in that case, the high point wins. I can go right down the street to shoot, and i can afford to buy more ammo, and get ammo at my convenience. Im pretty sure 9mm would get the job done for my needs.
but on the other hand thanks to saiga instigators like MD, LMAO....saiga is the damned devil! i want a saiga.
lol...i am still undecided. I just called my range to verify what i could and could not shoot. Saiga = No, 9mm carbine = yes.
i might just keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on both and get whatever jumps out at me first as a "buy it now!" price.
but on the other hand thanks to saiga instigators like MD, LMAO....saiga is the damned devil! i want a saiga.
lol...i am still undecided. I just called my range to verify what i could and could not shoot. Saiga = No, 9mm carbine = yes.
i might just keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on both and get whatever jumps out at me first as a "buy it now!" price.
If Saiga's are so cool, why did you put up a photo of a modified[ costs two hundred dollars more] one.Sorry for home defense I want the round with the least penetration[ I have no desire to kill any of my neighbors] My 9mm pistol loaded with Glasers fills the bill. BTW the Glasers and Magsafes according to FBI statistics have a higher kill percentage than any other cartridge including hydra-shock and black talons.
Nameless_Hobo
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Oh really? I've heard the findings were the other way.
If you want lower penetration, why not use .22 short?
If you want lower penetration, why not use .22 short?
MD_Willington
Member
It did not cost $200 more...
I purchased the PG, PG screw & nut, G2 FCG, & NATO stock for a grand total + tax of $118...
The rifle was $305, that includes transfer and shipping to my FFL
4 nylon hole plugs cost 0.17 x 4
1 metric screw + lock washer and nut ~ 0.75
You can get the Saiga online anywhere from ~$240 on up
Spent July 4th with my son changing out some parts on the rifle and touching up the receiver and thats it.
I purchased the PG, PG screw & nut, G2 FCG, & NATO stock for a grand total + tax of $118...
The rifle was $305, that includes transfer and shipping to my FFL
4 nylon hole plugs cost 0.17 x 4
1 metric screw + lock washer and nut ~ 0.75
You can get the Saiga online anywhere from ~$240 on up
Spent July 4th with my son changing out some parts on the rifle and touching up the receiver and thats it.
Kel-tec Sub2000 without a doubt. It is by far my favorite firearm right now (in a 'for fun' sense). 9mm is cheap, 33 round mags are awesome, and it fits in a 15" laptop case. Edit: and I've had 4 AKs and a saiga-12 at one point, when I was a AK nut, a 9mm carbine is plain fun.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Well, you are right about that. It will be hard to get less penetration without going to a .177 BB or a 6mm plastic BB. The Glasers are notorious for underpenetrating.
Like Correia, I'd like to see a link for that statistic because I am quite sure that the FBI has never found anything of the sort. TFL has some excellent discussions on Glasers in the archives - you can even find my posts defending Glasers there - right up to the point where I tried to find some evidence to support that belief and all I could find was stories of Glaser failures. This includes a failure of a .357 Glaser to the head that failed to stop the threat. That thread is at TFL as well.
For more recent examples here at THR, you can see some of the x-rays Odd Job has posted of Glaser type rounds in action or read the story of the Oklahoma pawn shop owner who was forced to fire through a two-way mirror during a robbery of his store (first two were Glaser and had no effect).
MIL-DOT
member
SAIGA . ( sometimes i have a gift for brevity...........sometimes).
corncob
Member
If you're in Columbia...
You should join Mid-Carolina Rifle Club. They are somewhat hard to track down on the internet, but the club is close enough to go shoot your rifles at 200 yards or your pistols at 1 (drawing from holsters is, of course, allowed). I always thought it is impossible to REALLY practice with a handgun at a range where drawing from a holster is not allowed.
However, it sounds to me like you really want the pistol caliber carbine. Buy it. Buy 4 mags, a case of ammo, a bore snake, and a bottle of CLP, and shoot it. With a Sure Fire (esp. in a mount) it will be fine for home defense. Any gun you've put a thousand rounds through is so much better than no gun that I don't think it really matters which one you pick. But do put the thousand rounds through it.
You should join Mid-Carolina Rifle Club. They are somewhat hard to track down on the internet, but the club is close enough to go shoot your rifles at 200 yards or your pistols at 1 (drawing from holsters is, of course, allowed). I always thought it is impossible to REALLY practice with a handgun at a range where drawing from a holster is not allowed.
However, it sounds to me like you really want the pistol caliber carbine. Buy it. Buy 4 mags, a case of ammo, a bore snake, and a bottle of CLP, and shoot it. With a Sure Fire (esp. in a mount) it will be fine for home defense. Any gun you've put a thousand rounds through is so much better than no gun that I don't think it really matters which one you pick. But do put the thousand rounds through it.
I've never fired or handled a Hi-Point before. But given that I've handled, shot or owned about 50 other kinds of long guns, I can say that in my opinion, there is not a finer "first rifle" than a Saiga. There isn't any down-side really, when considering it as a first rifle. One of the up-sides is that you can convert it to accept hi-cap mags with a pistol grip when you get around to the conversion process on your own time. At the moment, this rifle almost has too many upsides to count. If you want me to, I'll try and list them all for you.
My girlfriend of one year has shown an interest in target practice and marksmanship after a few trips to the range with me. She has expressed interest in owning a rifle, so I'm going to probably buy her a Saiga, as her primary firearm when we go to the range.
She also likes my Belgian Browning Hi-Power a lot (she called it a "very nice gun"), but I can't get her another one of those just yet. ;-)
As for the Cons that you mentioned with the Saiga, don't use it for home defense if you are concerned about rifle rounds going through walls in your situation. If you need an inexpensive home defense handgun, get yourself a Taurus 357 mag revolver for $175 or so. You can step up to Ruger revolvers for about $300-350. They work well for home defense in most situations.
My girlfriend of one year has shown an interest in target practice and marksmanship after a few trips to the range with me. She has expressed interest in owning a rifle, so I'm going to probably buy her a Saiga, as her primary firearm when we go to the range.
She also likes my Belgian Browning Hi-Power a lot (she called it a "very nice gun"), but I can't get her another one of those just yet. ;-)
As for the Cons that you mentioned with the Saiga, don't use it for home defense if you are concerned about rifle rounds going through walls in your situation. If you need an inexpensive home defense handgun, get yourself a Taurus 357 mag revolver for $175 or so. You can step up to Ruger revolvers for about $300-350. They work well for home defense in most situations.
Prince Yamato
Member
In a national taste-test, 4 out of 5 Americans preferred Saigas to Hi-Points... no, that is not a true statistic, but come on, get the AK.
rangerruck
Member
I tried a hipoint in 9mm once, ONCE!~!! That was all it took for me, to figure out, they are not reliable, or made well, if you must get a keltec in glock config, over the hipoint.
Clipper
Member
I live in a nice suburban neighborhood. I own a Hi-Point (w/ATI stock) carbine, a WASR II, several handguns and a shotgun (Win M-12, 30"), among others. If given a choice, I'm reaching for the Hi-Point for HD...Look, If I were being attacked by some crazed outlaw biker gang, I guess I'd wish I had the AK, but in the real world, it's gonna be one or two guys looking to score dope money, and 10 rounds of 9mm HP will settle their hash in short order. Ever notice how the recommendations always seem to go with the biggest, most expensive boomer. If one of your choices would have been a DPMS in 25WSSM, everyone would be dissing the Saiga. I also can't help but wonder, if the discussion were HD pistols, how many would recommend a GLOCK 9mm for you instead of, say, a .500 because of penetration worries. I like my neighbors, and want to reduce the possibility of a miss or through & through injuring or killing one of them to the lowest reasonable order of probability. When the Emergency Broadcast System starts sending alerts about roving bands of zombies or something, I'll whip out the AK, but otherwise, I'll leave my Rambo fantasies in the safe and keep my HP with me in the here and now...
Yeah, because that under $300 Saiga is just a total snob gun.
Settle their hash? Dude, no offense, but if you're gonna get into a gunfight, and you're picking the gun that you're going to take into a gunfight, why in the world would you want the weaker one, with the lesser track record, lesser range, and lesser reliability?
We're talking about shooting people here for self defense. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Putting a massive wound channel in the bad guy that will damage more tissues and cause greater blood loss and faster incapacitation is what it is all about.
There's a reason that pretty much every professional group, that actually makes their living killing people, has gravitated toward a rifle caliber carbine and away from pistol caliber subguns.
Honestly, I've got access to half a dozen full auto submachine guns ranging from MP5s to PPsHs. Any one of those compared to the Hi-Point would "smoke its hash". And if I was going to get into a gunfight, I absolutely knew there was going to be a gunfight, I'm taking a rifle, and leaving the buzzgun home.
We are also talking home defense, I have 50 neighbors within 1/4 mile, not a battlefield situation.Even a jhp 9mm will penetrate several sheet rock walls. If I lived in the boonies with no neighbors, I'd have 20mm gatling gun, if you get my drift.
indie
Member
i understand that a saiga is going to do more damage to tissue than a pistol caliber carbine. I also understand that it is considered to be the "better quality rifle.
But guys, Is it practical for a "go to" primary home defense gun in a residential neighborhood? Thats one issue of Major importance in my decision. I want a practical home defense gun, that my wife can handle. That can point and fire quickly. And that both of us can practice with and get accustomed to as being new to guns.
I can go to a range a mile away at my convenience and shoot 9mm but cant shoot .223 or 7.62. 9mm is more affordable.
i really have been wanting to get a saiga, and i like the capabilities of the 7.62x39. I really like the skeleton stock, and i would not modify from there, just get a few extra mags, and maybe a 30 round surefire just to have for a shtf emergency type situation. But i still havent found a reason to justify it as being more or even AS suitable for my current needs as a 9mm carbine.
To Clange. I looked into the kel tec, seems like a nice little carbine, but i'm a southpaw, and i have seen alot of complaints from left handed shooters having problems with both powder in their face and with releasing/dropping magazines. Southpaws seem to enjoy the hi point.
But guys, Is it practical for a "go to" primary home defense gun in a residential neighborhood? Thats one issue of Major importance in my decision. I want a practical home defense gun, that my wife can handle. That can point and fire quickly. And that both of us can practice with and get accustomed to as being new to guns.
I can go to a range a mile away at my convenience and shoot 9mm but cant shoot .223 or 7.62. 9mm is more affordable.
i really have been wanting to get a saiga, and i like the capabilities of the 7.62x39. I really like the skeleton stock, and i would not modify from there, just get a few extra mags, and maybe a 30 round surefire just to have for a shtf emergency type situation. But i still havent found a reason to justify it as being more or even AS suitable for my current needs as a 9mm carbine.
To Clange. I looked into the kel tec, seems like a nice little carbine, but i'm a southpaw, and i have seen alot of complaints from left handed shooters having problems with both powder in their face and with releasing/dropping magazines. Southpaws seem to enjoy the hi point.
MD_Willington
Member
Okay, here's a suggestion then, Saiga .410 with slugs or buck...
The Saiga .410 is in most cases the same price or close in price to the Saiga .223 or Saiga 7.62x39
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga-410.shtml
The Saiga .410 is in most cases the same price or close in price to the Saiga .223 or Saiga 7.62x39
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga-410.shtml
fletcher
Member
I would go with the Saiga. It's a good gun, reliable, and can be modified fairly easily if that floats your boat.
Clipper
Member
Correia,
I don't know where you're getting your reliability news, but I get mine here, and the threads I read all seem to confirm the reliability of the Hi-Point carbine. I know for sure mine has been utterly reliable since round 1. I cannot say that about my AK.
'Professional' groups that kill people for a living don't concern themselves with the women & kids on the next street, do they? Collateral damage is an everyday thing. If you're advocating some kind of scorched earth policy to deal with your bad guy problem, all I can say is I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood!
And we're talking home defense here, not 'knowing I'm going to a gunfight'. This is presumably inside his home, not fighting his way across town or sniping gomers from the rooftops.
I don't know where you're getting your reliability news, but I get mine here, and the threads I read all seem to confirm the reliability of the Hi-Point carbine. I know for sure mine has been utterly reliable since round 1. I cannot say that about my AK.
'Professional' groups that kill people for a living don't concern themselves with the women & kids on the next street, do they? Collateral damage is an everyday thing. If you're advocating some kind of scorched earth policy to deal with your bad guy problem, all I can say is I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood!
And we're talking home defense here, not 'knowing I'm going to a gunfight'. This is presumably inside his home, not fighting his way across town or sniping gomers from the rooftops.
That's usually the primary rule. Have you ever actually worked with any people like that? Every trained with any SWAT teams? You might be surprised.
That's what's called a Strawman Argument. It is when you make up something asinine, and then assign it to the guy you're debating.
If I was following a scorched earth policy, I would just skip right to belt fed 7.62x54R out of a PKM and quit screwing around.
My personal HD gun is 5.56, has a 10.5 inch barrel, and a TAC16 suppresor. I'm pushing a 55 grain bullet at 2,700 FPS. And I have shot walls, drywall, bricks, and cinderblocks with it. I've done the same thing with 9mm, .45, 00 and 000 buck, and various slugs. I know exactly how my gun works. I don't need to take the word of random strangers on the internet.
I would suggest that you guys do the same. Shoot some stuff for yourself. Take what you read online with a grain of salt.
SaMx
Member
right now I think the only thing the hi-point has going for it is it's easier to practice with.
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