So, Who Regularly Hunts Past 600 Yards...?!?

[FL-NC]

If I can get closer I will. If not, I decide based on what my respiratory and heart rate is. If I just climbed a ravine 100 yds may be too far.

You can train for this as well. I mix cardio training in with all of my range sessions- a sprint, push ups, pull-ups, or a combination, then setting up and making a shot.

A good hunter doesn't have to shoot past the maximum point blank range of the cartridge/bullet they are using.

Everything else is just an ego trip and lack of basic hunting skill. The LRP game probably is to blame for anyone thinking about making the 600 yd. shot.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/point-blank-range.php?df=G6&bc=.415&vi=2800&sh=1.5&ts=4

So a hunter who trains regularly, zeros his/her rifle at 300 yards, using a scope with a mil-dot or ballistic reticle, and does the calculations for range, wind, and environmental factors, and successfully takes an animal with one shot at 2x the range of the actual zero mechanically applied to the scope, is displaying a lack of skill?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So a hunter who trains regularly, zeros his/her rifle at 300 yards, using a scope with a mil-dot or ballistic reticle, and does the calculations for range, wind, and environmental factors, and successfully takes an animal with one shot at 2x the range of the actual zero mechanically applied to the scope, is displaying a lack of skill?

I believe CoalTrain49 is differentiating between the skill of a long range marksman, who would be harvesting game without any chance that the game would detect the marksman's presence while making a phenominal shot, and "hunting" skill where the person attempting to make a harvest of a large game animal must close within a range to the animal where the animal has a reasonable chance with its senses, if not an excellent chance, to detect the human and flee, without being harmed.

Looking over an open area with telescopic devices, probably over crops if not other food sources, and selecting and harvesting large game at 600 yards (heck even 300 yards) is a different, demanding skill set than used when having to be at under 50 yards, using iron sights, and this skill set is further different when the harvester has to move vs. a roaming/grazing, large game animal, rather than waiting in ambush.

Each of the two scenarios may, but not must, show a lack of skill in the other area.

So what?

Both just might show an additional lack of skill if we add to the conversation the fellow who makes his archery equipment with spoke shaves, turkey feathers, and knapped flint points, with animal hide glue and sinew, and doesn't loose an arrow past 25 yards,

Again, so what?

So long as the animal is harvested in a quick, humane manner, then the rest is aesthetics, not ethics, and we in the hunting community need to guard against judgements on "the other guy" who simply harvest large game in a different manner than us. Some places use drives, some places use dogs, etc etc etc.

LD

 

[RugerOldArmy]

So a hunter who trains regularly, zeros his/her rifle at 300 yards, using a scope with a mil-dot or ballistic reticle, and does the calculations for range, wind, and environmental factors, and successfully takes an animal with one shot at 2x the range of the actual zero mechanically applied to the scope, is displaying a lack of skill?

He may only be displaying his hubris.

 

[FL-NC]

I believe CoalTrain49 is differentiating between the skill of a long range marksman, who would be harvesting game without any chance that the game would detect the marksman's presence while making a phenominal shot, and "hunting" skill where the person attempting to make a harvest of a large game animal must close within a range to the animal where the animal has a reasonable chance with its senses, if not an excellent chance, to detect the human and flee, without being harmed.

Looking over an open area with telescopic devices, probably over crops if not other food sources, and selecting and harvesting large game at 600 yards (heck even 300 yards) is a different, demanding skill set than used when having to be at under 50 yards, using iron sights, and this skill set is further different when the harvester has to move vs. a roaming/grazing, large game animal, rather than waiting in ambush.

Each of the two scenarios may, but not must, show a lack of skill in the other area.

So what?

Both just might show an additional lack of skill if we add to the conversation the fellow who makes his archery equipment with spoke shaves, turkey feathers, and knapped flint points, with animal hide glue and sinew, and doesn't loose an arrow past 25 yards,

Again, so what?

So long as the animal is harvested in a quick, humane manner, then the rest is aesthetics, not ethics, and we in the hunting community need to guard against judgements on "the other guy" who simply harvest large game in a different manner than us. Some places use drives, some places use dogs, etc etc etc.

LD

Thank you, Dave. We are on the same page. As a long range shooter (to me, long range begins at 400 yards) I won't judge someone else who successfully takes a game animal at 25 yards, and I won't hesitate to do the same. I do look negatively on those who take shots that are outside of the capability of their skill and equipment- whether it is at 50 yards or 500 yards. The "line" is different for everyone. I believe in seeking self-improvement at every range session, by intentionally training for more difficult and demanding shots. Besides, its kind of nice to have the whole place to myself on a bitter cold, windy, rainy day.

 

[Bfh_auto]

You can train for this as well. I mix cardio training in with all of my range sessions- a sprint, push ups, pull-ups, or a combination, then setting up and making a shot.

I do this with handguns to make it as hard as possible. Hunting isn't life or death for me.

 

[Choctaw]

I don't but I know several well-trained riflemen who are very capable of it. I love it when "hunters" criticize how others hunt. Good gosh, if we all don't do it like you do we aren't "real hunters."

 

[FL-NC]

I do this with handguns to make it as hard as possible. Hunting isn't life or death for me.

I do it with everything. For many years, much of what I did with guns WAS life or death for me and those I worked with. Now, not so much. I train hard with a handgun because if I am being totally honest, I really only own them for protection, so if that time comes (again), I really want to still be on my "A game". I train hard with a rifle because I enjoy it, and I use the skills I was fortunate enough to obtain over a long career (and at taxpayer expense) to do this both at the range, as well as applying to hunting. So handguns are for protection, and one is never far away. Rifles and shotguns are for fun at the range and hunting. But its worth the effort to be as proficient as possible with all of them, just for different reasons.

 

[Jack B.]

IMO there are to many variables shooting at a 600yd distance to really be sure you are able to hit your target in the right place. IMO trying to take an animal at that distance is unethical.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I do it with everything. For many years, much of what I did with guns WAS life or death for me and those I worked with. Now, not so much. I train hard with a handgun because if I am being totally honest, I really only own them for protection, so if that time comes (again), I really want to still be on my "A game". I train hard with a rifle because I enjoy it, and I use the skills I was fortunate enough to obtain over a long career (and at taxpayer expense) to do this both at the range, as well as applying to hunting. So handguns are for protection, and one is never far away. Rifles and shotguns are for fun at the range and hunting. But its worth the effort to be as proficient as possible with all of them, just for different reasons.

There are two types of hunters. Sportsmen and meat hunters. Because you have the skills to make the 600 yard shot, or even the 1000 yd. shot doesn't mean you have to take those shots as a hunter. Lots of people hunt with bows and muzzle loaders, even in areas where rifles are legal. Ever wonder why?

 

[FL-NC]

IMO there are to many variables shooting at a 600yd distance to really be sure you are able to hit your target in the right place. IMO trying to take an animal at that distance is unethical.

There are variables to hitting any target at any distance, under any conditions. These variables can be overcome, with practice. Perfect practice makes perfect. The difference between a novice and an expert is experience. Is a poorly placed shot at 50 yards more ethical than a perfect DRT shot at 600? Much like rifles, not all shooters are equal.

There are two types of hunters. Sportsmen and meat hunters. Because you have the skills to make the 600 yard shot, or even the 1000 yd. shot doesn't mean you have to take those shots as a hunter. Lots of people hunt with bows and muzzle loaders, even in areas where rifles are legal. Ever wonder why?

There's a lot more than 2 kinds of hunters. The equipment we use, and the shots we take are just choices. Beyond that, its just a matter of making wise choices.

 

[Jack B.]

I just want to know how you can practice for a gust of wind at 500 yards. When you are hunting you end up in may different locations and shooting across unknow terrain.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Bullet flight time to 600 yards is in the neighborhood of 0.75 seconds. Human visual reaction time is about 0.2 seconds.

That means the bullet arrives at 600 yards about a second after the shot looked perfect in the scope.

I just want to know how you can practice for a gust of wind at 500 yards.

All the practice in the world won't allow you to compensate for that unexpected gust of wind, or the deer moving a few feet before the bullet hits.

 

[Newtosavage]

Know your limitations. I regularly shoot 8" gongs at 600 and beyond with 308.

The first time you have a days-long tracking job through rough terrain and weather on a poorly hit gong, you'll rethink that.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I just want to know how you can practice for a gust of wind at 500 yards. When you are hunting you end up in may different locations and shooting across unknow terrain.

Most of us with any hunting experience know that it's a variable that you can't practice for when hunting. LRP is usually shot at a range where those variables can be seen or don't exist. The terrain is almost always flat. Most LRP is shot from a bench with rifles that are heavier and more accurate than most light barreled sporters.

There's a lot more than 2 kinds of hunters. The equipment we use, and the shots we take are just choices. Beyond that, its just a matter of making wise choices.

It usually isn't the equipment that limits a successful hunt. That only leaves the wise choices.

 

[DeepSouth]

Back in the day when we hunted a lot of power and pipe lines it wasn’t uncommon to set up where we could see several hundred yards in each direction. On more than one occasion I’ve glassed a nice deer 600+ yards. The standard procedure was to get down and in the edge of the wood and break out in full on run for 200-250ish yards then slow down, eventually coming to a creep and you could easily get in close enough to have a 200ish yard shot, assuming the wind wasn’t in your back it wasn't really that hard.

Was that hunting at 600 yards, probably, depending on how you define hunting. Was it shooting at 600 yards, I never did, but I have no doubt their were some in our club that could have made those shots easily. One the guys in that club was a Vietnam veteran, and was a Marine sniper, I wouldn’t have told him he couldn’t take a shot at any distance, if he feels confident then so do i.


Personally I know people I wouldn’t trust to shoot at a live animal over about 100 yards, I also know some that would have no problem hitting a lung at 600 yards.

Truth be told their is the possibly of a non fatal, maiming shot every time you pull the trigger when hunting, that’s just part of the equation. That doesn’t mean take unnecessary risks, but necessary risk is subjective to individual interpretation, other than when defined by law.



It comes to mind that the longest shot I’ve ever taken was at an antelope and was a little over 300 yards. Being an Alabama born and raised I know very little about antelope hunting, but I do remember the guy that took us (me and my dad) told us to be comfortable with at least a 400 yard shot when we showed up. So I assume that’s not an uncommon distance for antelope, which are smaller than whitetail (at least AL whitetail)

 

[tarosean]

Where do you draw the line.

Atlatl's



Never taken a 600yrd shot at an animal, likely never will, nor have I ever sat in a stand, baited/hunted over a food plot, nor hunted out east.. That said. I wouldn't denigrate anyone who would do any of those things. We are very diverse as is our quarry and legal means.

 

[FL-NC]

I just want to know how you can practice for a gust of wind at 500 yards. When you are hunting you end up in may different locations and shooting across unknow terrain.

The terrain is largely irrelevant, even less relevant if you can read a map. I just use the stuff I carry. Sometimes I need it, usually I don't.

All the practice in the world won't allow you to compensate for that unexpected gust of wind, or the deer moving a few feet before the bullet hits.

Or a bee stinging you, or the tree stand shifting from your weight, or the animal being startled by another animal, or any other thing that can happen while taking a shot with any weapon at any distance. No matter what you are shooting at, its a good idea to know the typical behavior of the species, and be able to "read" the target's state of alertness, to be able to predict with accuracy what it will likely do next.

Most of us with any hunting experience know that it's a variable that you can't practice for when hunting. LRP is usually shot at a range where those variables can be seen or don't exist. The terrain is almost always flat. Most LRP is shot from a bench with rifles that are heavier and more accurate than most light barreled sporters.

I used this one for prarie dogs out to 700 yards. If I was expecting shots over 400, I wouldn't limit myself to my Wal Mart lightweight 243.

Most of us with any hunting experience know that it's a variable that you can't practice for when hunting. LRP is usually shot at a range where those variables can be seen or don't exist. The terrain is almost always flat. Most LRP is shot from a bench with rifles that are heavier and more accurate than most light barreled sporters.

Like the terrain this guy is on? I used to be in this club. We practiced a lot too.

It usually isn't the equipment that limits a successful hunt. That only leaves the wise choices.

Yes, the shooter is almost always the weak link in the process. But there are shots out to 800 meters I can easily make with this:


That I wouldn't even think of trying with any of these.

The first time you have a days-long tracking job through rough terrain and weather on a poorly hit gong, you'll rethink that.

I don't understand your analogy 100%. If a shooter can consistently hit an 8" or smaller gong at a given distance, and the projectile used has sufficient energy, expansion, etc. to produce a lethal hit into the animal in question's vitals (nominally, 8") at that distance, then where does the days-long tracking effort enter the equation? Sure, a perfect shot can be delivered into an intended target with an adequate projectile, and things STILL go wrong, but that can happen at any distance.

Personally I know people I wouldn’t trust to shoot at a live animal over about 100 yards, I also know some that would have no problem hitting a lung at 600 yards.

Truth be told their is the possibly of a non fatal, maiming shot every time you pull the trigger when hunting, that’s just part of the equation. That doesn’t mean take unnecessary risks, but necessary risk is subjective to individual interpretation, other than when defined by law.

Precisely. Like I said before, not all rifles, and not all shooters are created equal. Which is why I am taking my hunting buddy's grandson out this week for a complimentary one-on-one marksmanship improvement class. He is having issues hitting wild pigs with one of my 1.5 MOA rifle at 90 yards. My goal is to have him consistently hitting 8" gongs out to 300 with 3 different rifles by the end of the day.

 

[Newtosavage]

Sure, a perfect shot can be delivered into an intended target with an adequate projectile, and things STILL go wrong, but that can happen at any distance.

My point was that gongs don't move while the bullet is in the air, and they don't bleed. So there is no chance of following a missed 8" gong with a 14-hour tracking job in the dark. It's one thing to consistently hit a stationary 8" gong with no consequences on the line. It's completely different to take that shot on a moment's notice, with heart rate pumping, in unfamiliar winds with a chance for the animal to move and end up leading you all over the mountains in the dark because you hit neck or guts instead of vitals.

Is there a chance of doing that much closer? Sure there is. But the opportunity for a marginal shot gets exponentially higher the further out you go. A 2 MOA miss at 300 yards is 6" but a 1 MOA miss at 600 yards is also 6" and when you add in flight time and a moving critter, you could easily be looking at a 10-14" miss.

The bottom line question is "for what?" How is it worth making shots like that on game? I guess that's for each of us to decide on our own. I am not so desperate for meat or bragging rights that I need to take that shot. I'll just spend the time to get closer, or go home and eat tag soup. Wouldn't be the first time I've done that and it sure isn't as bad a feeling as leaving a wounded animal on the mountain.

 

[CoalTrain49]

View attachment 801346
Like the terrain this guy is on? I used to be in this club. We practiced a lot too.

Did you look for the wounded Taliban for hours or even the next day after a fading light shot? Naw, probably not. When there's lead in the air there's always hope, right? Too many military "one shot, one kill, 1000 meter military sniper stories for this old timer.

Hunt however you want, makes no difference to me.

 

[farmerboy78]

Did you look for the wounded Taliban for hours or even the next day after a fading light shot? Naw, probably not. When there's lead in the air there's always hope, right? Too many military "one shot, one kill, 1000 meter military sniper stories for this old timer.

Hunt however you want, makes no difference to me.

exactly it should make no difference, wish all the nay sayers would just shut up and stop responding if they don't like the subject matter. yall sound like a bunch of liberal Democrats.

 

[CoalTrain49]

exactly it should make no difference, wish all the nay sayers would just shut up and stop responding if they don't like the subject matter. yall sound like a bunch of liberal Democrats.

I like the subject matter or I wouldn't have posted. Lots of other people liked the subject matter also. So, according to you, you're going to sound like a liberal Democrat if you disagree with a post here. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[George P]

You can train for this as well. I mix cardio training in with all of my range sessions- a sprint, push ups, pull-ups, or a combination, then setting up and making a shot.

Are hunting here in flatland Florida or going out West and climbing up and down mountains at 9000+ feet where your legs, lungs and heart are screaming at you? I used to live out West, amazing how many flatlanders were NOT prepared for the terrain or climate and couldn't hit a 50 yard broadside as a result.

600 yard shots from a steady rest on flat terrain in ideal weather conditions on a broadside target that is stationary is 180 degrees from the reality of hunting.

 

[FL-NC]

My point was that gongs don't move while the bullet is in the air, and they don't bleed. So there is no chance of following a missed 8" gong with a 14-hour tracking job in the dark. It's one thing to consistently hit a stationary 8" gong with no consequences on the line. It's completely different to take that shot on a moment's notice, with heart rate pumping, in unfamiliar winds with a chance for the animal to move and end up leading you all over the mountains in the dark because you hit neck or guts instead of vitals.

Is there a chance of doing that much closer? Sure there is. But the opportunity for a marginal shot gets exponentially higher the further out you go. A 2 MOA miss at 300 yards is 6" but a 1 MOA miss at 600 yards is also 6" and when you add in flight time and a moving critter, you could easily be looking at a 10-14" miss.

The bottom line question is "for what?" How is it worth making shots like that on game? I guess that's for each of us to decide on our own. I am not so desperate for meat or bragging rights that I need to take that shot. I'll just spend the time to get closer, or go home and eat tag soup. Wouldn't be the first time I've done that and it sure isn't as bad a feeling as leaving a wounded animal on the mountain.

Life is about choices and the risks we are willing to take. I guess I'm a risk taker, and I guess I'm exceptionally lucky. I have lost exactly 1 big game animal in my life, in 1993. The blood trail played out but the coyotes picked it up. I'll walk through the mountains, swamp, whatever all night to find a critter. I've done it plenty of times- looking for someone else's critter.

Did you look for the wounded Taliban for hours or even the next day after a fading light shot?

Sometimes, yes- if it didn't present risk to mission accomplishment, or excessive risk to the team. You can learn a lot from the enemy by looking through their pockets and such. Sometimes both the shot AND the follow-up was in the dark. And it turns out humans quit pretty easy, so they didn't go far.

Are hunting here in flatland Florida or going out West and climbing up and down mountains at 9000+ feet where your legs, lungs and heart are screaming at you? I used to live out West, amazing how many flatlanders were NOT prepared for the terrain or climate and couldn't hit a 50 yard broadside as a result.

600 yard shots from a steady rest on flat terrain in ideal weather conditions on a broadside target that is stationary is 180 degrees from the reality of hunting.

To date, I have never been at an altitude over about 7,000 feet, but I would welcome the chance to do it. I found the arabian desert and the Panamanian jungle in the summer to be more taxing physically than the high altitude in Paktika, but Paktika was much more dangerous. Yes, the physical condition of the shooter is also a key element in delivering accurate fire, whether he/she is suffering from the effects of altitude, or just has a cold. Since I haven't been training or acclimatized to hunting (or anything else) at 9,000 feet as of late, my capabilities would probably suffer if I were to go there tomorrow. My capabilities would also suffer here if I tried to do some long range shooting tomorrow if I were ill. In either case, it would be a matter of the shooter recognizing his or her own capabilities and limitations of making that shot, then and there, as presented.

 

[taliv]

Good grief. People get way too wound up over what hunting is or isn’t. If you want to kill one with your bare hands then I’ll consider your arguments. But any technology you use from recurve bows to sniper rifles is a massive unfair advantage. You’re really arguing about a totally arbitrary level of unfairness.

Also they’re practically domesticated. I mean I can throw a hammer and hit one in my yard most days.

If you need meat, kill one however you want. If you just want a trophy then do whatever makes you happy but if you hunt in a way that makes it highly likely the animal will suffer more then necessary then don’t expect a lot of pats on the back when you come online to brag.

Bragging about how far away you killed something is stupid. And so is dogging someone else cause they used a more advantageous technology.

 

[LoonWulf]

An 80lb Axis deer will kick the crap out of you if you jump on it....been there.
Hitting them in the back of the head with a stick is an effective way to kill them, but not particularly productive......been there too.

According to my dad, hitting a texas whitetail in the head with a 5 gallon bucket full of tools, from the side of a jeep doing 35 on the way back to base works too. Tho not conducive to keep your tools in the bucket.....


At this point ill stick to shooting them, preferably as close as possible. But I certainly won't condemn some capable of using tools they are comfortable with, to take them farther out.
Also there are places and times where getting closer is not an option. I've had to pass on a few animals I really wanted, because I simply couldn't get close enough to shoot.