Sold all my 'small' CCW pistols

[Zerodefect]

I totally agree that the right to defend ourself is an inalienable right. I still live in Vermont because of the gun-friendly laws surrounding buying and carrying firearms. I don't mean to go down a slippery slope at all. Unfortunately, I think I am begining to prefer the arrangement in other states where concealed carry requires a permit. Here's why.

Growing up in Connecticut, a permit was required to carry. If I was pulled over in a traffic stop, or someone accidentally noticed my carry gun, I had a permit to indicate that I was a law-abiding, reasonably trained individual who was eager to cooperate with state laws and state law-enforcment officers. In VT there is no such method of demonstrating your level of conscienciousness regarding training or legal compliance. For all the police officer knows, you could be anyone from a firearms instructor to an anti-social wack-job.

I hate government involvement and regulation in just about any form, but since it's unavoidable I would prefer to have some tangible means of quickly identifying myself as a law-abiding citizen who respects local laws enough to put in the time required to get and maintain a permit. Is this an odd perspective? Maybe, but from my experience there was a certain level of respect afforded those with a permit which is not always offered to the "everybody" in VT who just so happens to have a gun. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it is. I don't blame the police officers, either. If I were one, I think I would view permit holders as cooperative, respectful and responsible. If no permit is required, there is no indication of one's attitude toward these factors.

That's my odd-ball view on the subject. I love the fact that I can buy and carry with no waiting period and no hassle, but the increased suspicion with which someone carrying a gun is viewed by law enforcement is unpleasant, if understandable.

It should be assumed your an honest law abiding civvy unless there is a real reason to think otherwise.

Good officers have a detailed routine that allows them to confront people safely expecting that they'll be armed. If your being stopped for questioning or whatever, he'll search ya or ask if your armed before he just lets you hang out anyways. I'll let an officer chime in on that. But if your playing nice you have little to worry about.

You're better off in Vermont, a free state that allows carry wthout license.

If you really want to. I don't see why you can't get a CCW from another state. I know CCW'ers that also carry a PA or UT license because those carry better reciprocity across more states than the state they live in.

They travel alot.

So if you want a license, go ahead and get one from another state.

 

[Hastings]

Zerodefect,

I had never thought of that, but it sounds like a very good idea. I'm bounded by New York, and Massachusetts if I want to get to PA, or other points south. Are there any forum members reading this that could offer information on whether concealed carry permits are available from these states to out-of state individuals, and what is involved in getting a one of the permits? I've heard New York is pretty much the opposite of Vermont, but I've never looked into Massachusetts. I know CT uses to have a reciprocity law with Rhode Island that so long as you were not spending the night your carry permit was valid in Rhode Island.

By the way, I don't think I was trolling. I just have a lot of time to think and few people locally to discuss those thoughts with. I must also confess that a nice stainless PPK has always appealed to me, but I haven't acted on the urge yet. But I just recently bought a Glock rather than a S&W revolver, so who knows, I may give in to to dark urges in one month.

 

[beeenbag]

I love my pocket 380 and do not feel under gunned with it. I'll carry it comfortably with a smile.

 

[Beach Nut]

My Ruger LCP and my Taurus snubbies are definitely better than a empty hand in a self
defense situation. I also have a Glock 26, it is the best shooter among my CCW choices
but it is a little harder to hide in warm weather. With some practice, almost anyone can
become competent with a mouse gun. It is true that a larger gun would be more accurate
and better in a gunfight, but the convenience of having a gun you can put in a pocket
holster and throw in your front pocket outweighs the need to have a larger gun you
have to rig up in a special carry holster and lug around everywhere you go. And chances
are, unless you live in the projects or are traveling through the toughest downtown
area you can imagine, that you will not be using it anyway. I have peace of mind carrying
what I carry and that is really the most important thing. When I do travel in areas known
for high crime rates, I do throw my Glock 21SF or Glock 23 in my truck as a vehicle gun.

 

[lobo9er]

I just have a lot of time to think and few people locally to discuss those thoughts with.

I bet the Brady crew and meny other liberal law makers would love to hear your thoughts.

I would think having a small 380 or like gun may come in handy, would imagine there will be at least a few times you will go with out because concealment will be a task.

 

[the count]

Intimidation effect

I would like to throw this little true story into our small vs full size discussion:

Friend of mine in a ex Raleigh PD officer. Tall, bald, does not look like your typical victim to start out with. Anyway, recently he was out at night with a lady friend and noticed that a guy was following them. For good measure he took a couple of turns to see what would happen. The guy was still following them and closing in. At this point ex cop turns around and casually pulls back his jacket, showing off his holstered 1911. Bad guys turns around never to be seen again. Does size matter? You be the judge.

 

[armoredman]

Hastings, the exact same rules apply in Arizona, and I am just fine with that. However, we also offer a permit to those who wish one, to avoid the Brady 15 minute phone call wait, (if that long), and carry in reciprocity states. We offer it as a non resident permit, as well.
I dress how I want off duty to conceal, and don't worry if I look odd to anyone but my wife. On duty I have Glock 17, pepper spray, Taser, and a whole host of other things available, including a rack with two AR-15s and ten shotguns less than 4 steps from my desk.

 

[JohnBT]

"showing off his holstered 1911."

All that proves is that seeing a gun was enough. A .38 revolver or .380 might have been enough, we'll never know.

 

[lobo9er]

"showing off his holstered 1911."

All that proves is that seeing a gun was enough. A .38 revolver or .380 might have been enough, we'll never know.

brandishing a firearm may not be a good strategy anyhow. and I think is a felony I the "bad guy" that happened to be "following" just happened to be going the same direction.

 

[the count]

brandishing a firearm may not be a good strategy anyhow. and I think is a felony I the "bad guy" that happened to be "following" just happened to be going the same direction.

Just uncovering the weapon cannot be construed as brandishing as open carry is legal in NC. Pointing a gun at somebody, even if not loaded, carries a mandatory 3 year sentence if done just to intimidate.

The fine detail that may elude some from the 'flashing the gun' story is the following: If he had had only a small carry pistol he might have simply carried it in his pocket like many here say they do. And pulling it out of the pocket to show to the bad guy could be construed as brandishing or even drawing. Ah yes, the devil is in the detail.

 

[230therapy]

I prefer the Glock 26 (or equivalent such as the M&P compact) due to the short barrel. I use a flat based magazine for discrete carry, 10 round magazine with +0 finger extension for appendix carry, and a Glock 19 mag with adapter when less concealment is necessary.

 

[wheelguy]

My preference is for covering more scenarios, instead of just increasing firepower. Also, I place greater importance on not altering training, than on upping firepower by swapping weapons (not good to have to think about which weapon you have at the moment, and how to use it).

So, I'll add-on instead of build up as dress and circumstance requires as follows...
condition green = pocket carry, PM380. allows putting hand on reliable weapon without being conspicuous.
condition yellow = above + ankle carry S&W AirLight .357. provides a backup weapon and greater firepower/reliability.
condition orange = above 2 + appendix carry G23. adds speed and power, but at a high cost of greatly reduced familiarity with this mode of carry.

 

[huntsman]

I would like to throw this little true story into our small vs full size discussion:

Friend of mine in a ex Raleigh PD officer. Tall, bald, does not look like your typical victim to start out with. Anyway, recently he was out at night with a lady friend and noticed that a guy was following them. For good measure he took a couple of turns to see what would happen. The guy was still following them and closing in. At this point ex cop turns around and casually pulls back his jacket, showing off his holstered 1911. Bad guys turns around never to be seen again. Does size matter? You be the judge.

LEO's are in a whole other category than J6P with all the crap they deal with as part of the job.

In your OP you didn't state that you had any "big guns" I would never advise someone to only own pocket pistols, since I've added one to my stable I'm very happy with it and it's still the only plastic gun I own.

 

[smince]

Might depend where you work/live though.

Cause Lord knows, the bad guys never leave the bad part of town and come to the better areas...and 5 shots from the pocket carry gun will always be 'enough' since we never miss (on the range, anyway)...

I carry a G19 daily Appendix-IWB (or 26 when I need a bit more concealment) even in an Alabama summer, backed up by a G17 magazine.

'church' gun

I carry the G26 here

 

[420Stainless]

While I don't share your opinion as to what constitutes adequate firepower (very happy with my pocket carry PM45 most of the year), I do believe a person ought to carry what suits them for whatever features they deem important. Bravo!

 

[Zerodefect]

Just uncovering the weapon cannot be construed as brandishing as open carry is legal in NC. Pointing a gun at somebody, even if not loaded, carries a mandatory 3 year sentence if done just to intimidate.

The fine detail that may elude some from the 'flashing the gun' story is the following: If he had had only a small carry pistol he might have simply carried it in his pocket like many here say they do. And pulling it out of the pocket to show to the bad guy could be construed as brandishing or even drawing. Ah yes, the devil is in the detail.

Brandishing requires intent.

He revealed his CCW on purpose with the intent to scare someone away. That's illegal.

If you jump onto a table at a local diner and say "I'm going to switch from CCW to Open carry". Then tear off your shirt and let your pistol hang out.......you're going to jail for brandishing.

If you take off your cover shirt quitely in your car and walk in you're legal. Your not showing off your gun, but it's there. But you're probally still going to get harrassed by the law (or lack there of).

 

[Effigy]

Cause Lord knows, the bad guys never leave the bad part of town and come to the better areas...and 5 shots from the pocket carry gun will always be 'enough' since we never miss (on the range, anyway)...

I carry a G19 daily Appendix-IWB (or 26 when I need a bit more concealment) even in an Alabama summer, backed up by a G17 magazine.

Obviously your environment plays a role in what makes sense to carry, which was my point. If you work somewhere that printing will get you fired or in an awkward situation, it doesn't make sense to pack a 19 round gun. If you live in some ghetto hellhole with an above-average risk of violent crime, carrying a bigger gun makes sense.

As far as how many rounds are "enough," there's really no way to know that. In many cases, zero shots may be needed since just having a gun is enough of a threat to defuse the conflict. Likewise, there's no guarantee that your 19 round gun is going to able to handle the situation. There may be problems you can't solve by having more rounds in your gun. All things being equal, more rounds would be better. However, all things are not equal when you start increasing capacity.

You have to balance the likelihood of needing extra rounds in a fight versus the convenience of carrying the gun, which increases the likelihood of having it when you need it (for the vast majority of people, anyway). It's the same concept behind carrying a small multitool. Sure it can't match the capabilities of a bunch of full-sized tools, but I'm way more likely to have the multitool with me when I need it, and it's good enough to handle most tasks. If I'm going into a DIY project (like going into a dangerous area for CCW) I'll try to bring the full-sized tool because I anticipate needing it.

 

[smince]

You have to balance the likelihood of needing extra rounds in a fight versus the convenience of carrying the gun,

I don't find carrying a near-service sized gun of adequate power and rounds to be 'inconvenient'

Needing more than five rounds and only having a J-frame in the pocket would be inconvenient.

 

[snooperman]

What is Adequate power?

It could be a well placed shot from A 32 ACP to the head, or a 380 shot between the chest pockets. It has been documented many times that shot placement supercedes bullet size. That said , most encounters by the citizen are going to be very close, hence a large bulky gun that he/she may not have with them all the time may be a poor choice, Especially for the elderly. Bigger is not always better.

 

[the count]

It could be a well placed shot from A 32 ACP to the head, or a 380 shot between the chest pockets. It has been documented many times that shot placement supercedes bullet size. That said , most encounters by the citizen are going to be very close, hence a large bulky gun that he/she may not have with them all the time may be a poor choice, Especially for the elderly. Bigger is not always better.

Dont get me wrong, I am not questioning your or anybody else's shooting abilities. But I want to see a head shot with a pocket gun at a guy who is moving at 10 yards away. Because if he is armed as well he will not stand there like a target at the range while you aim. While people have been killed with a 32 or even a 22 for that matter a 240 pound male that was not hit lethally can and will take you apart after you run out of your 6 (or whatever) rounds of 32 ACP. Of course I am assuming a worst case scenario but those are the ones that you have to plan for.

 

[snooperman]

You said it almost correct...

you are assuming a very rare case scenario for sure. Ed Lovette and others have documented thousands of confrontations and only 50% required the use of a firearm to stop the bad guy. When a handgun was used ,the average caliber size was a 32. Obviously some were larger but others smaller. That said , the attack came so quick and unexpected that little time was left to respond regardless of the firearm that was carried. In the vast majority of these assaults , the size of the gun and/or caliber did not play much of a role in the outcome. Most were already on the ground etc before they could respond. It is rare thing indeed for someone to fire his/her gun at 10 yards. Read the research that is available, it is an eye opener for sure.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

From the description of th incident, a possible crime was averted by the prospective victim simply by reacting to the presence of the "possible" threat, letting the the other guy know he was armed (and possibly willing to use it....obviously not your typical unarmed victim), and the other guy went away. No need to get all legalese here. More than half of all crimes go unreported, and in this case, even if the retired cop committed any perceived menacing charge, it averted a worse crime. It would seem that such display of a weapon is NOT a crime, if the alleged "victim" (the stalker) never reports it. The police need to deal with crimes that are reported, or they observe; everything else is just part of life. If we were not there to see it, we have no grounds to assume it was a crime to display being armed.

 

[Fiv3r]

I'm glad you have a carrying plan that works for you

Personally, I feel just fine with an LCP in my back pocket and a spare mag shoved into the watch pocket of my jeans most of the time. The beauty of a little pocket auto is having the availability to be armed at times when you might not be able to carrying a larger weapon.

I co-own a business and we have a storefront. It's not a high cash business or a desirable place to "knock over", but I have a few preparations. I keep a chambered and ready to fire high capacity 9mm in my desk drawer. However, it would be offputting to some of my customers to see me walking around with it on my hip. The LCP gives me 7 shots of quality ammo to at least try and even the odds of a bad situation. Much better to have that on me AND the 9mm in the drawer than JUST the 9mm and nothing else.

I carry the LCP with me all the time simply because it is small enough that I can. I don't have to use elaborate holsters or dress around a gun. Oh, if I am going out and about, I pack a .45 or a full sized 9mm or a .38 special. However, the LCP always rides along. Always. There is no reason for it not to.

 

[armoredman]

Brandishing requires intent.

He revealed his CCW on purpose with the intent to scare someone away. That's illegal.

That also depends on where you live.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00421.htm

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

B. This section does not apply to a person who:

1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

AZ revised statute.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Showing your concealed weapon is very ambiguous as to intent. It can mean "go away" OR, "bring it on!"