Some 357 Sig goodness

[CDW4ME]

Got a Lone Wolf 357 Sig barrel for a Glock 35 (40 S&W) plus couple 357 Sig mags.
This pistol has XS Big Dot sights and 357 Sig hits perfectly at 6-7 yards, aim on / hit on.
I'm pleased with this set up, basically a 16 shot 357 Mag with low recoil.
Chrono averages are for 6 shots.
Glock 35 with 357 Sig Barrel
125 Gold Dot @ 1,399 fps / 543# KE
125 HST @ 1,415 fps / 556# KE
125 Ranger T @ 1,428 fps / 566# KE
125 PPU FPJ @ 1,461 fps / 593# KE

 

[WrongHanded]

Occasionally I wonder if .357 Sig might just catch on eventually. And then I think, naw probably not. But it's certainly a capable cartridge.

You should try shooting it at 25 yards from the bench. I'd be interested to see how the Lone Wolf barrel does at that distance.

 

[Mars5l]

I wanna get one to go with my G35 since it already has a 9mm and the 40mm barrel. Have you tried the regular .40 magazines? Seems what I've read on GlockTalk the .40 magazine's work fine with .357 sig

 

[WrongHanded]

I wanna get one to go with my G35 since it already has a 9mm and the 40mm barrel. Have you tried the regular .40 magazines? Seems what I've read on GlockTalk the .40 magazine's work fine with .357 sig

.40S&W Glock mags with follows numbered 9 and 10 work in both G22 and G23 for me. I cannot speak on compatibility with earlier versions.

 

[jeff-10]

The 357 Sig is clearly superior to the 38 Super which has a solid fan base till today and as far as I know the 38 Super was never adopted by as many agencies as the 357 Sig. I feel like newer handgun cartridges are more thought out than newer rifle cartridges and have more longevity. The 327 Federal Mag which was recently discussed here being another example. They seem to stick around. Even the 5.7 pops up every once in awhile in a new firearms. The 10mm Auto was declared dead many times yet today it is arguably more popular today than when the FBI switched to the 1076's. The 357 Sig is one of those cartridges I can see being viable for self defense for quite awhile into the future.

 

[CDW4ME]

The 357 Sig is clearly superior to the 38 Super which has a solid fan base till today and as far as I know the 38 Super was never adopted by as many agencies as the 357 Sig. I feel like newer handgun cartridges are more thought out than newer rifle cartridges and have more longevity. The 327 Federal Mag which was recently discussed here being another example. They seem to stick around. Even the 5.7 pops up every once in awhile in a new firearms. The 10mm Auto was declared dead many times yet today it is arguably more popular today than when the FBI switched to the 1076's. The 357 Sig is one of those cartridges I can see being viable for self defense for quite awhile into the future.

I don't have a 38 Super, but this video supports what you are saying that 357 Sig > 38 Super.


I do have 10mm in both Glock and 1911.

 

[tipoc]

In 1990 the 40 S&W was introduced as the FBI's chosen replacement for both the 9mm and the 10mm. The 40 S&W took off like a rocket in law enforcement and for a period of time (10-15 years) was the most popular round in U.S. law enforcement. In 1994 Sig introduced the 357 Sig and chambered it in the P229. The Sig 357 was marketed as providing the same performance as the famous 125 gr. bullet of the 357 magnum, about 1400 fps, from a 4" barrel revolver. That's why it's named what it is. It's design is a bottle necked case the same diameter as the 10mm and the 40 S&W, with a 9mm bullet in it. It can get 1400 fps from a 4" barrel with a 125 gr. pill. It also does a good job with heavier bullets.

Because it's a 40 caliber case it holds one less round than the 9mm or the 38 Super.

The main competitors of the 357 Sig are and were the 40 S&W and the 9mm and not the 38 Super. (By the 90s few law enforcement agencies were using the much older 38 Super, Border patrol, Texas Rangers, etc. the Super was no longer in the mainstream running.)

The 357 Sig was conceived as a law enforcement round but was introduced too soon after the 40 S&W to make any deep inroads in law enforcement. By the late 90s it was a niche round and remains that today. It is used by a few leo agencies but truly a few. It is a very good round for self defense and some hunting applications. It is more powerful than the 9mm in any loading and the 38 Super in some loadings. It is also less powerful than the 40 S&W.

38 Super is over a century old and has a small and dedicated following. It is an excellent round.

 

[CDW4ME]

It is more powerful than the 9mm in any loading and the 38 Super in some loadings. It is also less powerful than the 40 S&W.

Thanks for the history lesson for readers that may be unfamiliar with the 357 Sig.
I was not interested in 357 Sig when it was introduced in 1994, already had a Glock 23 and liked 40 S&W.
In 2007 I decided to get a Glock 32 which was my first pistol in 357 Sig.

Less powerful than 40? By what measure?
"Apples to apples", my chrono and pistols:
Glock 35
Speer Gold Dot 180 @ 1,008 fps / 406# KE
Federal HST 180 @ 1,019 fps / 415# KE
Winchester 180 JHP @ 1,028 fps / 422# KE
Glock 35 with 357 Sig Barrel
125 Gold Dot @ 1,399 fps / 543# KE
125 HST @ 1,415 fps /556# KE
125 Ranger T @ 1,428 fps / 566# KE

Comparing either Gold Dot or HST 357 Sig has 25% more KE than 40 S&W.

 

[tipoc]

The history of the 357 Sig is important. It's that history which explains why the round did not gain greater popularity.

https://aliengearholsters.com/blog/357-sig/

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/357-sig-whats-the-point/

We can point out that the higher pressures that the 357 Sig operates at can generate increased muzzle flash, felt recoil and wear on the gun. It's also the case that 9mm bullets at high velocites for handguns, can generally penetrate metal better than larger diameter bullets. For some applications the 357 Sig would or could be a good choice.

Energy figures are only one measure of power and are usually most useful when apples are compared to apples. The other factors are bullet weight, bullet diameter and momentum. This is why in the 1930s while the 38 Super with a 130 gr. pill was the most powerful semi-auto pistol in existence, if watching kinetic energy, but most considered the 45 Colt single action with a 255 gr. bullet at between 800 and 900 fps a more powerful gun and load.

Let's compare a 147 gr. bullet from the 357 Sig Hornady XTP 1225 fps and 490 ft/pds of energy

I could not find a 147 gr. bullet for the 40 S&W but we do have 155 gr. bullets (8 grs difference) so: Hornady XTP 40 S&W 155 gr. 1180 fps and 479 ft/pds

Still a sliver of an edge to the 357 Sig with 11 ft/pds of energy and 45 fps of velocity. But given variations in guns and ammo that's close enough that nothing would know the difference and they are close to identical. That difference gets better for the 40.

We can get 180 gr. bullets for the 357 Sig that are impressive:

From Double Tap Ammo: "Doubletap has made the ultimate hunting load for the 357 Sig. Loaded with a 180 grain Wide Flat Nose Gas Check bullet, these rounds will penetrate deeper than other 357 Sig. loads. Designed to be a hunting load, these work great for deer, hogs, and black bear. The Hardcast bullet features a gas check to prevent leading of the barrel.

Doubletap's Ballistic Test Results

3.5" Barrel

• Muzzle Velocity: 985 fps

• Muzzle Energy: 388 ft. lbs.

4.5" Barrel

• Muzzle Velocity: 1050 fps

• Muzzle Energy: 441 ft. lbs.

A bit more: http://www.ballistics101.com/357_sig.php

http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php

http://www.ballistics101.com/38_super.php

 

[jeff-10]

357 Sig is definitely more powerful than the 38 Super and 40 S&W by all measures of velocity and energy. What the 40 S&W has going for it is the same thing the 45 ACP does, you start with a larger bullet and therefore likely end up with a larger expanded bullet. Whether that is more effective or not has been debated in great length.

 

[Garandimal]

Try the Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP out of that 5.3" Bbl.

Should get > 1300 fps at the muzzle.

And, as that proprietary XTP bullet is constructed like a .357 revolver bullet, penetrates like a wood-tick.


Run them, and the S&B 140 gr. FMJ-FP, out of my G23.4 w/ the LWD 5.3" 357Sig Bbl installed. as a lightweight field/trail pistol.




GR

 

[Garandimal]

A good vid of the 357Sig Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP in action.

​

Don't miss the "meat target" at the end.




GR

 

[Dragonfly]

I had my G31C out a couple of weeks ago after installing Ameriglo sights. I'm always surprised at how little muzzle flip there is with the pistol. I was pleased that the front sight didn't soot up from the ports, too.

 

[CDW4ME]

momentum. This is why in the 1930s while the 38 Super with a 130 gr. pill was the most powerful semi-auto pistol in existence,

Let's compare a 147 gr. bullet from the 357 Sig Hornady XTP 1225 fps and 490 ft/pds of energy

I could not find a 147 gr. bullet for the 40 S&W but we do have 155 gr. bullets (8 grs difference) so: Hornady XTP 40 S&W 155 gr. 1180 fps and 479 ft/pds

Hornady 147 is not typical weight for 357 Sig - 125 gr. is.

I gave actual chrono averages from my pistols before.
I'll use Underwood data this time.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785726300217
38 Super 124+P Bonded @ 1,350 fps / 502# KE
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785725448249
"Hot" 40 S&W Bonded 165 @ 1,200 fps / 528# KE
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...57-sig-125-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point
125 gr. Bonded 357 Sig @ 1,475 fps / 604# KE

357 Sig is more "powerful" than 40 S&W and 38 Super.

 

[sparkyv]

I always find it ironic that 357 SIG posts nearly always are about Glocks and not SIGs. Funny how that came to be.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread...carry on.

 

[jeff-10]

I always find it ironic that 357 SIG posts nearly always are about Glocks and not SIGs. Funny how that came to be.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread...carry on.

The Glock 31 is the perfect platform for that round as opposed to the P229 which really makes a better 40 S&W.

Not a huge fan of a sub 4 inch barrel in a round like that.

 

[CDW4ME]

I always find it ironic that 357 SIG posts nearly always are about Glocks and not SIGs. Funny how that came to be.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread...carry on.

I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess Glock has sold more 40 S&W pistols than S&W has; I did my part.

 

[Garandimal]

I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess Glock has sold more 40 S&W pistols than S&W has; I did my part.

...and the cornucopia of aftermarket GLOCK conversion Bbls.

...like my LWD 5.3" for the G23.4.




GR

 

[sparkyv]

Ouch...that one hurt.

I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess Glock has sold more 40 S&W pistols than S&W has; I did my part.

 

[tipoc]

Well I was wrong about the 357 Sig and the 40 S&W. The 357 Sig has an edge on power and that includes over a wide range of bullet weights up to 180 gr. bullets. It's this latter, what it can do in heavier bullets that provides the edge.

357 Sig operates at a higher pressure than 40 S&W, 9mm or 38 Super. That has a cost. Ft/pds of energy is only one factor to look for in a gun or round.

I've never argued that 38 Super is more powerful than the 357 Sig. I did argue, incorrectly likely, that the 40 S&W was more powerful.

Looking at energy figures alone to determine power does not provide an accurate picture. The .17 Remington Fireball, a handgun round, can propel a 20 gr. bullet to 4,000 fps from a 10" barrel. That's 710 ft/pds of energy. That alone does not make it more powerful than a 357 Sig.

 

[fxvr5]

Looking at energy figures alone to determine power does not provide an accurate picture. The .17 Remington Fireball, a handgun round, can propel a 20 gr. bullet to 4,000 fps from a 10" barrel. That's 710 ft/pds of energy. That alone does not make it more powerful than a 357 Sig.

How are you suggesting power is measured?

 

[CDW4ME]

@tipoc
I like 40 S&W too.
Whether a bit more KE is better than a bit more diameter is debatable.
I have another Glock 35 it still has its 40 S&W barrel and Trijicon HD's - POI matches my POA well with that combo.
The 35 with XS Big Dot POI was a bit high with 40 S&W but is perfect with 357 Sig - I'm picky, we are talking 1.5 inch.

In the Lucky Gunner 357 Sig (AKA 9mm is best) video you linked he says maybe there is something in shootings that is not seen/reflected by gel and I agree.
I don't think gel reflects the advantage of increased KE and I'll give an example.
In the Lucky Gunner 38/357 mag ammo test:
38 Special 4'' barrel 158 LSWCHP 13.4'' / .56 (298# KE)
357 Mag 4'' barrel 125 SJHP 13.6'' / .54 (602# KE)
357 Mag is hitting with 2x the KE of 38 Special, yet result in gel is about the same.
Do I think the ASAP incapacitation potential of those two is about the same. NO I don't.

In Lucky Gunner test of 10mm the Hornady 155 XTP expands to about .65
I shot a deer with that bullet and measured holes in tissue of 1 1/4 inch.
Damage to tissue was greater than expanded diameter of bullet or what would be expected based on expansion in gel.

Back to 357 Sig vs 40 - if I look at expansion in gel 40 wins.
However, I'm of the opinion that gel may not reflect benefit of increased KE based on the near identical 38/357 Mag gel results and what I documented in tissue.

One of my pics. A quarter is .95 and that hole is bigger - from a bullet that expands to about .65


The deer was shot with a 10mm Colt Delta Elite.
Just so happens that with my Glock 20SF POI matches my POA perfectly with Hornady 155 XTP and the Glock 20SF is concealable for me AIWB .

357 Sig and 10mm - for those that think increased KE may be beneficial.

 

[tipoc]

In general more power is always useful provided provided the shooter can handle the gun well for the purpose the gun has been chosen for.

My opinion that the 357 Sig was less powerful than the 40 was based on old information. So I looked some more and saw that I was wrong.

When you build jhp ammo to meet the FBI protocol for penetration and expansion through barriers and into ballistic gelatin you get rounds that do just that. Which is useful. It also means that penetration is limited to that 12-18" of penetration.

 

[WrongHanded]

As I see it, the issue with terminal effectiveness of the .357 Sig (or Magnum, or most cartridges for that matter) is that we simply have not come up with a way to measure the effect of the kinetic energy dump during the fraction of a second where impact takes place. All we can measure is the destruction in the aftermath, and see gel wobbling in slow motion from high speed camera footage.

But the way I look at it is like a gut punch. A heavy weight professional boxer hits harder than a bantam weight amateur. But measuring the difference in terms of physical damage after the fact may not be easy. However, I would guess the heavy weight pro is more likely to take the fight completely out of me than the bantam weight amateur.

 

[CDW4ME]

As I see it, the issue with terminal effectiveness of the .357 Sig (or Magnum, or most cartridges for that matter) is that we simply have not come up with a way to measure the effect of the kinetic energy dump during the fraction of a second where impact takes place. All we can measure is the destruction in the aftermath, and see gel wobbling in slow motion from high speed camera footage.

But the way I look at it is like a gut punch. A heavy weight professional boxer hits harder than a bantam weight amateur. But measuring the difference in terms of physical damage after the fact may not be easy. However, I would guess the heavy weight pro is more likely to take the fight completely out of me than the bantam weight amateur.

Interesting to watch some of the individual slow mo of Lucky Gunner Testing.
https://www.luckygunner.com/357-sig-125-grain-jhp-hst-federal-premium-le-50-rounds#geltest
357 Sig HST, at 13 seconds that block is lifted off the table all the way to the 9 inch mark.

In contrast a 380 Gold Dot manages to slightly lift the block off the table to about the 2 inch mark.
https://www.luckygunner.com/380-auto-90-grain-jhp-speer-gold-dot-le-50-rounds#geltest