Sometimes Peaceful Protest Works

[rainbowbob]

Be back tomorrow to answer any questions you have.

Except the following questions:

Why do you remain in the US instead of returning to the motherland?

What are your ties to the CCP and are you on their payroll?

And one more question...

Are you gecko45's new persona - and is this really a hoax?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Bob,

I don't think this is a hoax. I don't think she's on any CCP payroll, either. I think she truly believes these things.

As far as why she remains in the US. My thoughts are she enjoys a better standard of living here, and has more opportunities here than in China. As great as China is in her mind, she enjoys freedoms and opportunities here she never would in China.

Unlike the "One China" policy, she's welcome here in the US. Even with her repugnant views. And unlike the glorious leaders in China, we believe our citizens have enough integrity and moral character to chose the right path without having to indoctrinate them into one, and shield them from exposure to anything deemed "subversive".

 

[qwert65]

I really think it's useless to continue this discourse. Though I'd like to thank the mods for keeping this open as I never realized how brainwashed someone can be. It's sad really as it means war might one day be unavoidable. I can't see how someone having the luxury to live in both places still can be brainwashed.

It reminds me of the russians claiming they invented the telephone, and movies, etc.

 

[retgarr]

I hope this gets locked soon.

Rachen, you are not going to convince anybody here of the saintliness of the CCP. Not ever. I am all for culture and what not, but from what I've seen the CCP has been one of the worst enemies of culture in the past century.

This thread is all political, with a smattering of gun seasoning.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

dads second wife is chinese she survived th glorious revolution much of her family didn't. her perspective as an adult who actually livedthrough what rachen read about is suich that i'd be afraid to have em in same room.be fun to watch a 75 year old stomp someone though

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

All those tankers had to get to work. This punk was holding up traffic.

 

[lanternlad1]

"our longtime enemy is probably mad that we took Hong Kong back, right?"

The British LEASED Hong Kong for 99 years. China didn't take it back, the lease simply expired. Your "longtime enemy" also dragged China, kicking and screaming, into the Modern Age just as they did for India, whether you like how they did it or not. If it were not for the British Empire, you'd still be using swords instead of guns and rickshaws instead of cars. The West HAS pervaded China, finally, and WE'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

Stick that in your opium pipe and smoke it.

 

[Owen]

why do you think the BBC hates China.

Also, note Rachen's innate racism by always referring to UK citizens as "the filthy british"

 

[Ergosphere]

Unlike the "One China" policy, she's welcome here in the US. Even with her repugnant views.

US Customs and Immigration asks if you're a member of a communist party on the application forms for permanent residency. They do this for a reason; my understanding is that it's not an automatic disqualification, but if the answer is "yes" you'll have more than a little explaining to do...

 

[ilcylic]

Take a close look at these Nazi scum and at our CCP.

You've got a good point. Compared to China, the Nazis were pikers. Your beloved government managed to murder five times as many people as the Nazis did. Congratulations. I guess there's something to be said for stretching things out over time.

Even the warmest summer night will have a chilly breeze.

Even the most noble leaders have flaws.

But we cannot let their wrongdoings overwhelm the good they have have accomplished.

"If you want to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs."

Yeah, I've heard that one before.

And if we believe that, Rachen has some lovely oceanfront property in Arizona that he can sell us. There's even a bridge that he'll throw in for free.

The London Bridge? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

 

[Wes Janson]

No, the moderators do us a service by keeping this thread open. "It is wise to study the ways of one's adversary, don't you think?"

It's interesting to look at Rachen's description of the Tienanmen massacre, and consider the ways things can be spun after the fact. Even without specific knowledge of what really occurred, it's easy to look at his statements and see the likely mistruths and lies. Pure cynicism tells me, for instance, that the claims of collusion with the "commander of the 38th" are likely simple after-action scapegoating, in an attempt to pin blame on someone (And the important follow-up question: is that former commander still alive?). The claims that unarmed civilians managed to pull soldiers out of APCs and stake them to their vehicles is ludicrous.

I am indeed grateful for the existence and capabilities of the United States Strategic Command. There is some small comfort to be derived from the knowledge that at least we still carry the biggest stick.

 

[rainbowbob]

BFKen said:

...she...

Really? I think Rachen is a male name, although I don't think it is Chinese. But then, who among us uses their real name?

 

[Ergosphere]

They were long-named members of the Gang Of Four

I'd really like an answer to this question: How do you know their affiliation? How do you know who was in the square when the military rolled in?

The ones at the square after sundown were anything but students. They even carried railroad spikes, axes, and maces to the square, with the intention of really causing some havoc later on that fateful night.

I've seen photos of the fighting and aftermath. What I haven't seen are photos which show any of the protesters with axes, spikes, etc. (Yes, they did cause some damage during the fighting... mostly burned APCs, from what I saw.) A quick Googling shows some photos here. Can you show me one where the people are armed?

I became very intrigued by the topic, and later on, did some very serious research about what really happened. And what I discovered chilled my blood to the bone and made me sympathize with the CCP even stronger.

Okay, here's another question: what sources did you use for your research? (Little red book? CCP political propaganda textbook, like the one my wife had to study from middle school all the way to graduate school?)

Here is another question: if Falun Gong practitioners encourage murder and suicide, and they've largely moved to the U.S., then why have I not seen evidence of crimes perpetrated under their influence? Please show me evidence of systematic criminal activity here. Or do you ask me to believe that they suddenly changed from "evil" to good beliefs after they were forced out of China?

There is a video regarding the tanks, [...] You can't just say that video has been doctored up. It was one of the first footage to be shown.

That was before the massacre; I remember watching that on TV (live?) at the time. That man had real courage. The government later forced media companies to terminate their satellite up-links, and that is when the "restraint" ended.

 

[Dravur]

Ergo

Now, don't go clouding the issue with silly facts and photos. That is irrelevant. Rachen knows what happened cuz he was told so... by the CCP.

Don't you know that facts don't matter?

When I was in high school, I wrote to the government of the Soviet Union asking for some information. I did it as a class project. They sent me a book and a ton of literature. I still have the book, "A Pictoral History of the Soviet Union".

The book was a hoot. It reads almost exactly like Rachen's posts. The great Soviet Union completely re-wrote history, glossed over atrocities or simply left them out.

Rachen, here is the difference between our countries. We understand that our country is not perfect. People here have done evil things, people have done great things. We understand it and don't gloss them over. We discuss them and try and make sure they don't happen again. This is what free people do.

 

[rainbowbob]

People here have done evil things, people have done great things. We understand it and don't gloss them over. We discuss them and try and make sure they don't happen again. This is what free people do.

That is an incredibly significant difference. The 1st Amendment describes that right - and the 2nd Amendment ensures it.

 

[Wheeler44]

He that complies against his will

Is of his own opinion still

Which he may adhere to, yet disown,

For reasons to himself best known
Samuel Butler 1612-1680

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
A person who is brainwashed will,
become the damn brainwashers shill

Wheeler44, 2008, The High Road

 

[DigitalWarrior]

Rachen,
You have strong tendencies toward using government force to correct societal ills and foster societal good. The concerns I have are related to the fact that I believe that well-intentioned people can make decisions that accept horrible injustices in the short term to achieve a Utopian future.

For instance Germany believed in the racial superiority of the German people and utilized Eugenics in an attempt to further "improve" their race. Russia believed that the rich were standing in the way of progress and needed to be destroyed. Cambodian killing fields were well-intentioned too.

China is very nearly the definition of Fascist, and suffers from both the benefits and evils of Fascism. The apparently (though not actually in my opinion) good includes a feeling of unity and larger purpose and place in history, a partnership between government and business, and an active government. The bad includes the treatment of strong dissent as treason, the eventual suppression of small businesses by excessive regulation, and the historically strong possibility of wide scale purges.

DW

 

[Rachen]

First of all, I think I forgot to clarify that I am a guy in the beginning of this thread. Sorry.

Second of all, China has the world's largest population. And that means the annual death rate is probably going to be a little higher than other countries with less population. Normal?
Absolutely.

HOWEVER, when western media sources collected these death rates, and then made people believe that it is a murder conspiracy carried out by the CCP, is THAT normal?

Absolutely not.

And yeah, I apologize for calling the British "filthy imperialists", but I refer to the ones who go out of their way to invade other sovereign nations. Don't forget your own Hudson River Valley during the 1770s, and what the Tories did there. Enough blood has been shed there to make future generations to come hate them and remember them for what they done to innocent men, women, and children. Don't forget Tarleton, the Bloody Baron either. After all "Tarleton's Quarter" wasn't coined for no good reason. I have nothing against the British, however, they are not welcome to go into any land they please and call themselves kings. The British is our common enemy, or once was, but then, we still have to be vigilant, don't we?

And while I enjoyed this discourse, I don't mean to try and convince anyone either. After all, we all come from different backgrounds, and different political viewpoints, but we are all here for one reason: To protect and preserve our beloved 2nd Amendment and other rights granted to us by the great men who defeated tyranny and imperialism. We Chinese also fought imperialism, however, we just came out in a different fashion, thats all.

What are your ties to the CCP and are you on their payroll?

I already answered that question way before, probably in the first few pages or so.

Why do you remain in the US instead of returning to the motherland?

Already answered that too. Remember if there is someone trying to promote further friendship between the two countries, it is us.

Are you gecko45's new persona - and is this really a hoax?

Now thats damn right funny. I don't even have to answer this, since doing so would mean that I actually allow people to throw random insults.

dads second wife is chinese she survived th glorious revolution much of her family didn't. her perspective as an adult who actually livedthrough what rachen read about is suich that i'd be afraid to have em in same room.be fun to watch a 75 year old stomp someone though

I'll take the stomping. I'll remain still, take the beating like a martyr and show the entire world how brave and fearless our CCP is.

I don't mind dying for my country. LOL!

LONG LIVE THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY!

 

[vk704]

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

 

[Cannonball888]

Rachen: After all, we all come from different backgrounds, and different political viewpoints, but we are all here for one reason: To protect and preserve our beloved 2nd Amendment

The 2nd Amendment couldn't exist under the CCP. You really are a confused individual.

 

[springmom]

And yeah, I apologize for calling the British "filthy imperialists", but I refer to the ones who go out of their way to invade other sovereign nations. Don't forget your own Hudson River Valley during the 1770s, and what the Tories did there. Enough blood has been shed there to make future generations to come hate them and remember them for what they done to innocent men, women, and children. Don't forget Tarleton, the Bloody Baron either. After all "Tarleton's Quarter" wasn't coined for no good reason. I have nothing against the British, however, they are not welcome to go into any land they please and call themselves kings. The British is our common enemy, or once was, but then, we still have to be vigilant, don't we?

*snort* I'm of Irish descent and even *I* don't consider the British "our common enemy". They're our closest allies.

'll take the stomping. I'll remain still, take the beating like a martyr and show the entire world how brave and fearless our CCP is.

I don't mind dying for my country. LOL!

LONG LIVE THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY!

Gag me with a maggot.

Here's the bottom line. If you are an American citizen, then THIS is your country. Not the bloody communist Chinese government. We keep telling you that you have to choose. You do. If you took that oath of citizenship with this view (that China is your country) then you took it falsely and deserve to lose that American citizenship you accepted under false pretense.

That doesn't mean you have to hate China. It doesn't mean you can't work to broaden American's understanding of China's vast cultural heritage. It DOES mean that your ultimate loyalty needs to be here, not there. It also means that you're going to get lambasted when you come on a forum like this and play cheerleader for communist China.

You are *closing* minds with this garbage, not opening them. You are *hardening* attitudes, not broadening them. IF, and I think that's a big if, IF you are actually what you say you are, a person trying to be a "goodwill ambassador" for your FORMER country, then that's a great thing to do...but you are doing it bass-ackward.

Springmom

 

[Owen]

The problem with your view of the American Revolution, is that by your own statement, the Redcoats were absolutely in the right, because the Colonist's were subject of the Crown.

The colonist's were "rogue elements." The King was the right and legal government. The soldiers were crushing dissent. So why is it wrong in North America, but perfectly fine in China?

 

[Rachen]

It also means that you're going to get lambasted when you come on a forum like this and play cheerleader for communist China.

LOL! I didn't start this whole thread in the first place. However, someone here posted a thread sympathizing with the rioters of the Gang Of Four who got themselves in BIG trouble for trying to undermine China's stability, and of course, I can voice my opinion, right?

If I had a child who participated in the 6-4 riots, I would dis-own him or her immediately. Let the state punish them for disturbing the peace. I wouldn't even want to see their faces ever again.

 

[Owen]

oh, and why should the death rate be higher in a populous country?

 

[Rachen]

oh, and why should the death rate be higher in a populous country?
__________________

China right after the Revolution was in the most severe poverty one can ever imagine. The War with the Japanese took almost 30 million lives, and devastated countless acres of land. The war with the Guomingdang took over 10 million lives, and devastated the blood soaked country even further.

To make matters worse, the Guomingdang filled their ships will every single bit of China's gold, currency, and ancient treasures before they fled to Taiwan. We tried to take Shanghai as quick as possible, hoping to capture Chiang Kai Shek before he had the chance to run, but he got away. We were left with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And for years afterward, it was an extremely tough time rebuilding. That is the reason why Chairman Mao had to revert to hardline Communist tactics, for a while, to force the nation's economy back to being sane again. Until 1967, antibiotics, and other modern drugs were in extremely short supply, many people died from illnesses that penicillin could have cured, but the Western nations refused to trade with us, and our scientific facilities haven't even been contructed yet, since the focus of the new nation is on rebuilding the infrastructure. Impoverished is a pretty light term to describe conditions in China immediately after the Revolution. My own father remembered his mother giving him all the porridge they had every day, and was on the brink of starvation herself. And she had no shoes, only wore rags wrapped around her feet, which became bloodied after long walks to the market, and the factory where she worked at everyday. My father would never forget such sights.

However, we do not blame the government at all. They did what they could under the most extreme circumstances, and China today is much different than the China of the early post-revolution years.