Speed Shooting: Autos VS Revolvers
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Erich
Member
Well, while the cyclic rate of those CZ Skorpions (admittedly not a semi-auto) is pretty impressive, if you're talking about the usual carry semi-auto, I would think not.
ducktapehero
Member
FWIW Bob Munden can shoot his SAA faster than his 1911.
I think the guys mentioned are at the edge of what's HUMANLY possible.
However, a typical semi-auto pistol has an inherent cyclic rate that is much faster than a human can pull the trigger. So, MECHANICALLY it's possible for a semi to be shot faster than that. About twice as fast, actually.
However, a typical semi-auto pistol has an inherent cyclic rate that is much faster than a human can pull the trigger. So, MECHANICALLY it's possible for a semi to be shot faster than that. About twice as fast, actually.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
It's my understanding that Jerry Miculek broke Ed McGivern's record several years ago.
Before your quote there were about 3 'I thinks', I think. And most of the folks who've posted so far fit the description 'you'. Maybe you could let us know which opinion is pokin' at you and I'll bet someone will help you scratch that itch.
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Zak Smith
Member
There was a demo on American shooter where Bob Munden "fanned" his SA revolver. The splits were faster than his 1911 cycled.
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MrAcheson
Member
Ever seen the video of a glock going full auto? Its a guy in a ski-mask with either an illegal machine pistol or one that has a slamfire problem. All the rounds from the fullcap mag were in the air at once. You can probably do a search on THR or TFL and find it. Thats way more than 8 shots in a second.
You need to have the right semi-auto since the cyclic rate of the slide is important. The 1911 is not a good choice since the slide is big, heavy, and slow. You want a lighter slide in a snappier cartridge. The other issue is trigger reset and timing. You need to pull the trigger just as the gun goes back into battery. Too slow or too fast and you waste time. You don't have that problem with a revolver.
You need to have the right semi-auto since the cyclic rate of the slide is important. The 1911 is not a good choice since the slide is big, heavy, and slow. You want a lighter slide in a snappier cartridge. The other issue is trigger reset and timing. You need to pull the trigger just as the gun goes back into battery. Too slow or too fast and you waste time. You don't have that problem with a revolver.
goalie
Member
Full auto has nothing to do with the discussion, since trigger reset and squeezing are taken out of the equation in a full-auto firearm.
Well i believe Jerry's record comes out to something like 450prm. Which is pretty dang fast. And bear in mind that is with 8 shots to 4 separate targets (2 each). So not only is it fast fire, it's aimed fire. I doubt that any amount of equipment is going to make a difference here.
But, i think the telling thing is that the fastest shooter in the world uses a revolver. If he could shoot faster with a semi he would. (or someone else would in order to take his record).
But, i think the telling thing is that the fastest shooter in the world uses a revolver. If he could shoot faster with a semi he would. (or someone else would in order to take his record).
Well trigger reset and squeezing are physical (human) issues, but the original question also asked about the mechanical possibilities.
Given that only 3 folks in the last century or so have been able to demonstrate the proficiency described in the posts above, I think it's safe to say they're somewhere near the limit of what's physically possible for a human. Jerry's record works out to something less than 500rpm.
But based on the cyclic rates of full auto versions of various pistols (1100rpm and up) it is MECHANICALLY possible to get a typical semi-auto to fire faster than the human revolver record holders. Obviously you're going to have to make some mechanical contraption to pull the trigger very rapidly.
Just to throw in another twist--it may very well be possible to get a revolver to fire at a rate approaching the cyclic rate of a full auto by using a mechanical device to pull the trigger. I think the problem would be that at some point things are going to start breaking. The limit is going to be hit when you find out how much you can stress the relatively small parts that have to start and stop the movement of the cylinder between each shot.
A revolver is capable of faster fire than a semi-auto. It has been for many years and will continue to be that way until the auto makers find a way to fool physics. A revolver is only limited by trigger reset speed, the trigger can be pulled as fast as humanly possible, trigger reset on a revolver is MUCH faster than the slide cycle of a semi-auto.
Well, that wasn't really the question. The question was "Can a semi-auto fire as fast as Miculek shoots his revolver?"
It may be possible to make a revolver fire as fast or faster than a semi-auto, but given that a typical semi-auto is capable of cycling at over 1000rpm and Miculek is not even achieving 500rpm, the answer to the initial question is yes.
That's HALF the limitation. The cylinder rotation is also a factor. The trigger pull must spin the cylinder. Physics says that unless you apply infinite force it takes time to accelerate something. It also says that the more quickly you want to accelerate something the more force you must apply. Therefore getting the cylinder started spinning will take time and force. At some point, one of two things will happen. Either the shooter's finger will no longer be strong enough to apply any higher level of force to make the cylinder accelerate faster, or a part will no longer be able to take the strain of starting and stopping the cylinder and the gun will stop working.
Yes, but unlike a typical revolver, the revolving cylinder of an electrically fired Gatling gun doesn't start and stop for each shot. The timing is set up to fire the cartridge when it is lined up with the bore so the cylinder never has to stop.
Sunray
Member
It ain't the gun. It's the man. Both of those guys do a lot more shooting than any of us. Miculek took more than one run at the speed record. He'd tell you himself it's practice. The firearm is only part of it.
goalie
Member
Let me clarify:
When you fire full-auto you hold the trigger to the rear. You do not pull the trigger to fire the weapon each time. That is why comparing the cyclic rate of a full-auto to how fast you can fire a semi-auto is pretty much irrelevant. To fire a semi-auto, you not only have to deal with the cyclic rate of the slide, but you have to reset the trigger and squeeze it again as well.
Apples and oranges.
When you fire full-auto you hold the trigger to the rear. You do not pull the trigger to fire the weapon each time. That is why comparing the cyclic rate of a full-auto to how fast you can fire a semi-auto is pretty much irrelevant. To fire a semi-auto, you not only have to deal with the cyclic rate of the slide, but you have to reset the trigger and squeeze it again as well.
Apples and oranges.
I had the pleasure of seeing Jerry Miculek in person at one of the OKC ranges about two weeks ago. I can honestly say that he is VERY fast with both a revolver and a semi-auto. He shot several revolvers and two autos, the S&W 1911 and one of the other S&W police style autos. The man is talented.
Mr Miculek is one of the friendliest people that you will ever meet. I spoke with him after his demonstration and asked several questions. One question was whether he came by his gift of speed naturally or was this something that he developed over time. He stated that he "used to be a lousy handgun shot", but developed his speed and accuracy through much practice. His worst groups were far better than most of could obtain from a bench-rest at slow speed. I gained a lot of shooting wisdom from him that day. Scott
Mr Miculek is one of the friendliest people that you will ever meet. I spoke with him after his demonstration and asked several questions. One question was whether he came by his gift of speed naturally or was this something that he developed over time. He stated that he "used to be a lousy handgun shot", but developed his speed and accuracy through much practice. His worst groups were far better than most of could obtain from a bench-rest at slow speed. I gained a lot of shooting wisdom from him that day. Scott
That's a mighty big assumption. Only three people have chosen to go the the showmanship route and become well-known. That by no means only three people have been able to achieve that level of performance, does it?
You deliberately misquoted the question (and twisting to serve your purpose), didn't you? The original question was Is it physically and mechanically possible for a semi-auto to be shot as fast as Jerry Miculek shoots his Model 627; that is 8 shots in 1 second?"
No, it is not possible--and semi-auto means ONE round for ONE pull of the trigger. It does not mean multiple rounds for multiple rounds from a single pull of the trigger which is the only way to achieve those 1000 rpm some are hung up on. The typical service autoloader--1911, SIG, Beretta, S&W, Glock, etc.--cannot be shot as fast a typical service revolver, period.
The other factor some are choosing to ignore is accuracy along with that speed--the round for round accuracy of a full-auto at a sustained 1000 rpm leaves a great deal to be desired. In terms of physical limitations of the weapon, you cannot sustain 1000 rpm for any length of time before the weapon self-destructs--far quicker than revolver will when fired at max cyclic rate.
Sure, it's possible that there are people out there who are capable of breaking world records but just don't feel like doing it with witnesses. Unfortunately until they change their minds I think my statement stands exactly as I posted it. "...only 3 folks in the last century or so have been able to demonstrate the proficiency described in the posts above"
If the slide is capable of cycling at 1000rpm+ then if the trigger is operated that fast the gun will fire that fast. We're not talking rocket science here.
My purpose? What kind of purpose are you imagining that I have? Surely you don't mean my involvement in the great shadow conspiracy to discredit revolvers and revolver shooters?
This is an internet forum. People post opinions and information here and read information and opinions here--to be entertained and informed. Maybe you come here with some other "purpose" in mind, but that doesn't mean everyone's head works that way.
I'm thinking that it MIGHT JUST be possible that people aren't addressing accuracy because the original question didn't mention accuracy. But you never know--it might be because of their...
"purpose." 
Speed is directly related to cyclic rate of the firearm being used.
There are no semi-automatic pistols available that are capable of cycling faster than a Smith and Wesson revolver, at least not yet.
The fastest cycling semi-auto pistol going right now is the Glock in .357 Sig.
There are no semi-automatic pistols available that are capable of cycling faster than a Smith and Wesson revolver, at least not yet.
The fastest cycling semi-auto pistol going right now is the Glock in .357 Sig.
Island Beretta
Member
..check out what KC Eusebio using a semi-automatic did to beat Jerry Miculek using a revolver in the steel challenge..think he set a course speed record..mechanically the gap as narrowed between semiauto and revolver speed but I don't think anyone has been able to max either out.
Quote: "But, i think the telling thing is that the fastest shooter in the world uses a revolver. If he could shoot faster with a semi he would. (or someone else would in order to take his record)."
Interesting thing though, when Jerry shoots in 3gun matches he uses a semi-auto.
Interesting thing though, when Jerry shoots in 3gun matches he uses a semi-auto.
"You deliberately misquoted the question (and twisting to serve your purpose), didn't you? The original question was Is it physically and mechanically possible for a semi-auto to be shot as fast as Jerry Miculek shoots his Model 627; that is 8 shots in 1 second?"
No, it is not possible--"
Are you sure? I have timed splits on my race gun of .10 and .11. Aren't those faster than 8 shots in a second?
Scott
No, it is not possible--"
Are you sure? I have timed splits on my race gun of .10 and .11. Aren't those faster than 8 shots in a second?
Scott
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