Speed Shooting: Autos VS Revolvers
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miculek got .14 sec splits,with wussy loads
in a huge, heavy revolver. For over 20 years now, the top IPSC guys have been getting .11-.12 sec splits with 1911's, and hitting the same sized marks, at twice the distance, with smaller, lighter guns, and with .45 ball type recoil. So, yes, the autoloader does outperform the revolver.
Also, Miculek fired 100,000 rds a year, for 7 years, getting able to do his "record. The guns and ammo were free from S&W, and he got paid to do nothing but shoot, by Clark Custom Guns. The IPSC guys managed to beat Miculek, practicing on their own time and money, and typically learn to do so in 1 year and a few thousand rounds. That's practical, the revolver stuff is not.
Walt Goeff, a multimillionaire, Paid Mcgivern to do nothing but cast bullets, load, and shoot, for many years, ya know.
in a huge, heavy revolver. For over 20 years now, the top IPSC guys have been getting .11-.12 sec splits with 1911's, and hitting the same sized marks, at twice the distance, with smaller, lighter guns, and with .45 ball type recoil. So, yes, the autoloader does outperform the revolver.
Also, Miculek fired 100,000 rds a year, for 7 years, getting able to do his "record. The guns and ammo were free from S&W, and he got paid to do nothing but shoot, by Clark Custom Guns. The IPSC guys managed to beat Miculek, practicing on their own time and money, and typically learn to do so in 1 year and a few thousand rounds. That's practical, the revolver stuff is not.
Walt Goeff, a multimillionaire, Paid Mcgivern to do nothing but cast bullets, load, and shoot, for many years, ya know.
rusbil, Jerry is a great IPSC shooter as well. See my earlier comments. And he has won or placed near the top at several national level 3gun matches. The man is not a one trick wonder.
And those .1 second splits aren't coming from guns with .45 ball level recoil. They are coming out of open class STI widebody compensated raceguns in .40 s&w. I don't know of too many people who get .1 second splits out of limited (IPSC) or CDP (IDPA) guns and manage to hit anything past conversational distance.
If I get .2 - .25 splits out of my limited type gun with 165 PF loads and still hit the target I'm having a good day.
And those .1 second splits aren't coming from guns with .45 ball level recoil. They are coming out of open class STI widebody compensated raceguns in .40 s&w. I don't know of too many people who get .1 second splits out of limited (IPSC) or CDP (IDPA) guns and manage to hit anything past conversational distance.
If I get .2 - .25 splits out of my limited type gun with 165 PF loads and still hit the target I'm having a good day.
20 years ago, Robbie and Brian were
staying in the 10" A zone, at 10 yds, with 38 Super comp guns, at .11-.12 second splits, just like I said. Back then, the recoil factor was 175, which is right up there with .45 ball performance in a 4" ccw gun. The fact that you can't match them is irrelevant to the fact that they did just what I said that they did.
staying in the 10" A zone, at 10 yds, with 38 Super comp guns, at .11-.12 second splits, just like I said. Back then, the recoil factor was 175, which is right up there with .45 ball performance in a 4" ccw gun. The fact that you can't match them is irrelevant to the fact that they did just what I said that they did.
"They are coming out of open class STI widebody compensated raceguns in .40 s&w."
Correia,
You ned to shoot more IPSC. Nobody shoots .40 cal in Open, there is no future in it. .38 Super/Supercomp, but never .40.
The purpose of showing split times is simply to show that the gun is capable of being fired that fast. Can it be done for eight shots? I can't do it. For three or four shots, yes, but I fall apart after that.
RJ357,
"8 shots in a second is about .14 sec between shots."
Actually, it is a split time of .125.
Scott
Correia,
You ned to shoot more IPSC. Nobody shoots .40 cal in Open, there is no future in it. .38 Super/Supercomp, but never .40.
The purpose of showing split times is simply to show that the gun is capable of being fired that fast. Can it be done for eight shots? I can't do it. For three or four shots, yes, but I fall apart after that.
RJ357,
"8 shots in a second is about .14 sec between shots."
Actually, it is a split time of .125.
Scott
Scott, can't help it, I'm a 3gunner at heart. IPSC confuses me what with the spandex shorts and coat hanger holsters and whatnot. I thought that the current shiz-nit in Open was .40 rather than the .38 supercomp. (moot point, I get my but kicked by IPSC guys with open gun in whatever caliber they are in whenever I shoot steel against them).
Rusbil, let me go back to what you just barely said. You said it yourself. COMP guns. You are comparing a tweaked out heavy revolver to a compensated race gun and saying that the comp gun is more practical than the revolver. Neither one is practical for anything other than gameing.
Robbie, Brian, and Jerry, and the other grandmasters like them are so far above the rest of us slugs that it doesn't matter one whit. We have guys winning the USPSA nationals with minor caliber Glocks and IDPA CDP with a freaking DA/SA Sig 220. Miyamoto Mushashi killed people with a wooden sword, but I ain't going to question him about it.
If Jerry's record could be beaten by somebody shooting an auto, good for them. Is it theoretically possibe? Sure. Somebody should do it then.
I thought that the current shiz-nit in Open was .40 rather than the .38 supercomp. (moot point, I get my but kicked by IPSC guys with open gun in whatever caliber they are in whenever I shoot steel against them). Rusbil, let me go back to what you just barely said. You said it yourself. COMP guns. You are comparing a tweaked out heavy revolver to a compensated race gun and saying that the comp gun is more practical than the revolver. Neither one is practical for anything other than gameing.
Robbie, Brian, and Jerry, and the other grandmasters like them are so far above the rest of us slugs that it doesn't matter one whit. We have guys winning the USPSA nationals with minor caliber Glocks and IDPA CDP with a freaking DA/SA Sig 220. Miyamoto Mushashi killed people with a wooden sword, but I ain't going to question him about it.
If Jerry's record could be beaten by somebody shooting an auto, good for them. Is it theoretically possibe? Sure. Somebody should do it then.
TaxPhd -
.125 sec between shots would be for a rate of 8 shots per second.
8 shots in one second has 7 intervals between the shots. The 1 sec divides up into 7 intervals, .14 sec each.
Two shots in 1 sec would have 1 or almost 1 sec between the shots. That would not be a split time of .5 sec. Neither would it be a rate of 2 shots/sec.
(I am assuming that the split time is the time between two succesive shots; I am not familiar with the terms and can't seem to find a definition anywhere)
.125 sec between shots would be for a rate of 8 shots per second.
8 shots in one second has 7 intervals between the shots. The 1 sec divides up into 7 intervals, .14 sec each.
Two shots in 1 sec would have 1 or almost 1 sec between the shots. That would not be a split time of .5 sec. Neither would it be a rate of 2 shots/sec.
(I am assuming that the split time is the time between two succesive shots; I am not familiar with the terms and can't seem to find a definition anywhere)
It DOES establish that at least this particular autopistol is CAPABLE of cycling that fast and can be manually shot that fast.
You imply that rate of fire can't be maintained for an entire string. Do you hold this opinion because you find it to be slower to pull the trigger on an autopistol than on a DA revolver? Because you find it harder to pull the trigger on a Semi-Auto compared to a DA revolver?
You say that it can't be done with accuracy. (Let's forget the fact that the initial post said exactly nothing about accuracy.) Do you hold this opinion because you find it easier to stay on target while pulling a DA revolver trigger than when pulling the SA trigger on an autopistol? Because you find the muzzle rise and recoil impulse to be less on a revolver than on a semi-auto?
RJ357,
I see what you're saying. Your's works if the first shot starts the time. Mine works with the beep starting the time, and the first "split" actually being reaction time from beep to first shot.
I never can resist the chance to give a math tutoring session - but you certainly didn't need one. ;-)
Scott
I see what you're saying. Your's works if the first shot starts the time. Mine works with the beep starting the time, and the first "split" actually being reaction time from beep to first shot.
I never can resist the chance to give a math tutoring session - but you certainly didn't need one. ;-)
Scott
Ok here is the REAL answer!!!
If we are comparing a semi auto handgun to a revolver, the revolver will be faster mechanically.
If we are comparing a full auto pistol to a revolver, the full auto pistol may or may not be faster based on it's design and ammo BUT the full auto pistol generally will be faster that a revolver by a substantial amount.
Practical Limitations
Now will you or I ever be faster with a revolver than a semi auto? I don't know. I can get faster aimed fire from my semiauto.
Here's a video of a full auto glock, notice the speed differences with the various calibers.
Full Auto Glock
If we are comparing a semi auto handgun to a revolver, the revolver will be faster mechanically.
If we are comparing a full auto pistol to a revolver, the full auto pistol may or may not be faster based on it's design and ammo BUT the full auto pistol generally will be faster that a revolver by a substantial amount.
Practical Limitations
Now will you or I ever be faster with a revolver than a semi auto? I don't know. I can get faster aimed fire from my semiauto.
Here's a video of a full auto glock, notice the speed differences with the various calibers.
Full Auto Glock
Island Beretta
Member
let's look at it another way.
revolver- pulling the trigger cycles the action and turns the cylinder simultaneously and then releases the hammer. By the time you reset the trigger the gun is ready again to be fired.
semi-auto- pulling the trigger cycles the action and releases the hammer. By the time you reset the trigger the gun is ready again to be fired.
We have 2 variables here: 1. finger/trigger speed and 2. locktime i.e. time from when hammer falls to shot detonation.
Mechanically, work can be done on 1 and 2 to get it down to a bare minimum i.e. lighter, shorter trigger pulls and release and faster locktimes. So not a constraint for either designs.
You are still constrained however by the finger/trigger speed of the human operator.. probably a better question would have been which design is easier to fire rapidly (meaning you don't have to burn '000s of rounds annually) and I daresay it would be the semi-auto for me. .
revolver- pulling the trigger cycles the action and turns the cylinder simultaneously and then releases the hammer. By the time you reset the trigger the gun is ready again to be fired.
semi-auto- pulling the trigger cycles the action and releases the hammer. By the time you reset the trigger the gun is ready again to be fired.
We have 2 variables here: 1. finger/trigger speed and 2. locktime i.e. time from when hammer falls to shot detonation.
Mechanically, work can be done on 1 and 2 to get it down to a bare minimum i.e. lighter, shorter trigger pulls and release and faster locktimes. So not a constraint for either designs.
You are still constrained however by the finger/trigger speed of the human operator.. probably a better question would have been which design is easier to fire rapidly (meaning you don't have to burn '000s of rounds annually) and I daresay it would be the semi-auto for me. .
Yes. Like the guys are saying, splits in the teens are really common in IPSC. In fact, there are probably several forum members who have shot a lot of .11-.12 splits.
While it is undeniable that the cyclic rate of a revolver isn't limited like a semi-auto, the debate is mostly academic because darn few shooters can crank a double action revolver as quickly as a 1911 trigger can be manipulated. FWIW, there are few IPSC revolver shooters, even the top 10, shooting revolver splits in the mid teens at an IPSC match, but the semi-auto shooters crank them off all across the country every weekend.
If you will wander over to Brian Enos' web site and do a search, you will find a link to some video of GM Steve Anderson shooting his dot gun at a rate every bit as fast as Jerry's revolver record.
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