Spikes Tactical Pros/Cons?

[Dimis]

found the TDP
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/09/27/what-is-the-tdp/

but i still dont buy into colt being 4-800 dollars more than anyone else

a good portion of people are following into colt being the ONLY company that can or will follow these practices in manufacturing a weapon

your acting as if colt is the only company legaly able to make an M4 to this spec which is not true

 

[M&PVolk]

Kwelz Wrote

Spikes used to suck. I would not have touched their guns. In the last couple years however they seem to have gotten on the ball and are producing a good gun. I am still leery of them because of the past actions however if they continue I would not have a problem recommending them to people.

My problem with them however comes from 2 points.

1: When President Obama got elected they immediately jacked their prices up. A lot of companies did this. But when they were questioned on it they blamed their suppliers. The suppliers came back and refuted these claims with proof.

2: Frankly the owner can best be described by words I am not allowed to say on this board. His attitude is unbecoming of a businessman or someone who wants to be taken seriously. His products had a questionable rep because of past quality as I mentioned above. He was asked to provide proof that he was now doing things right. Instead of being a man about it and just providing the certs he got pissy and started badmouthing some well respected industry professionals. He then later provided the Cert to other people and tried to claim the high road.

I have no use for attitude like his. It is the same reason I don't buy Larue even though the product is good. There are other product just as good from companies run by much better individuals.

I trust you will not be purchasing anything from Grant @ G&RT then? I followed the entire "Spikes" saga on M4C, and Spikes is being given the raw end of the criticism unfairly, IMO. For those who are unfamiliar:

1. Spikes used to be more of a gimmick company than a real AR maker. They were as Kwelz claims at that time. That couldn't be farther from the truth these days. They are now the most transparent AR maker in the business and are making outstanding products to the TDP spec. Not only have they put all their certifications online, but they include full signed HPI/MPI signed inspection tags on all their rifles and include a full lifetime warranty.

2. They did raise prices after Obama, as did nearly EVERYONE else. They blamed suppliers. Others claimed to have "researched the issue" and "proven" that wasn't the case. Keep in mind the "researchers" were competitors of Spikes. The biggest mistake by Spikes was the owner opened his mouth when he shouldn't have. The rest, to me at least, is basic supply and demand. If someone doesn't buy a Spikes rifle because of this, that is up to them. How Spikes gets a bad rap for it when others don't is a bit of a mystery to me, but whatever floats your boat. This is at least an objection that I understand, if not totally agree with.

3. The owner of Spikes seems to have a bit of a temper and a lack of ability to use discretion. Most of what transpired would have been better left silent, but he seems unable to do so. Still, his company was being vilified for claims they never made. Furthermore, the criticism went waaaayyyy beyond what is justified. I honestly believe he should have remained silent and brought a libel suit against his detractors, which I believe would have been won by Spikes. Instead, he got dragged in and shot off his mouth. Not the best way to handle it, but I can understand why it was done.

4. FWIW, at the end of all the "criticism" on M4C, Grant ran his own tests on a Spikes rifle and refused to publish his results, claiming that he had seen what "he needed" and that publishing the results "wouldn't accomplish anything". After all the trash talking and bashing, he couldn't call Spikes frauds, because I believe his tests showed Spikes to be milspec. His final comments on the issue certainly appeared sheepish. From there, Rob S, the maker of the infamous "chart" tested a Spikes for a magazine article, in which he shed a lot of light on the company and found that the product really is quality. Imagine that.

In short, the company was trashed for a price hike during the Obama cycle, and bashed by competing gun dealers for things that have been disproven. Looking at a Spikes rifle objectively, you will find it is a quality piece made to spec at a lower rate than competitors can achieve. Add in the lifetime warranty, and I see no reason to go with anyone else. If you want the Colt name, buy a Colt. If you want milspec without being charged for a name, go with Spikes. It really is that simple.

 

[AR27]

^ Nice job M&PVolk, well done

 

[Welding Rod]

Folks seem to put a lot of faith in newcomers. How many thousands of rifles is Spikes building per month? Or per year?

Aren't they the outfit that makes fake supressors?

Looking at the latest ATF numbers (2009) it says they built 267 guns that year. See page 12: http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2009-firearms-manufacturers-export-report.pdf

I have nothing against Spikes, or any of the other newer small manufacturers, but it seems logical to read of comparatively few problems with them when a manfacturer isn't putting 100 - 200 ARs a day on the market like the larger outfits like Colt, Stag, RRA, S&W, etc.

Another question would be if a smaller company would be around 10 or 20 years from now. Haven't a few already gone down in the last 2 or 3 years?

 

[Dimis]

If you want the Colt name, buy a Colt. If you want milspec without being charged for a name, go with Spikes. It really is that simple.

and thats the bottom line cause stone cold said so... (sorry couldnt resist)

Folks seem to put a lot of faith in newcomers. How many thousands of rifles is Spikes building per month? Or per year?

the question is not how many guns are made or how fast they make them the question is about quality

GAP rifles are making less than 1000 rifles a year and they are some of the highest quality bolt rifles on the market

quantity does not equal quality in ANY market

 

[nipprdog]

Looking at the latest ATF numbers (2009)

Psssst, it's 2011.

 

[readyme]

Great thread folks...thanks for providing good info in Spikes. I am looking to get my first AR and I can't find a reason not to get a Spikes.

 

[M&PVolk]

Welding Rod wrote:

Folks seem to put a lot of faith in newcomers. How many thousands of rifles is Spikes building per month? Or per year?

Aren't they the outfit that makes fake supressors?

Looking at the latest ATF numbers (2009) it says they built 267 guns that year. See page 12: http://www.atf.gov/statistics/downlo...ort-report.pdf

I have nothing against Spikes, or any of the other newer small manufacturers, but it seems logical to read of comparatively few problems with them when a manfacturer isn't putting 100 - 200 ARs a day on the market like the larger outfits like Colt, Stag, RRA, S&W, etc.

Another question would be if a smaller company would be around 10 or 20 years from now. Haven't a few already gone down in the last 2 or 3 years?

If you require a long historical track record to feel comfortable with a manufacturer's product quality, Spikes is not for you. I understand this perspective and don't begrudge those who hold it, it simply is not one that I adhere to. America abounds with companies that began doing one thing, and branched out into another, becoming far more successful in the new venture then they were in the old. Spikes makes dress up items for AR's, including fake suppressors. Daniel Defense made rails for AR's, as did Larue. All of them now make rifles and are well respected for their quality rifles, as well as their quality rails or accessories.

Your point about the smaller sample size is a good one. However, in a fledgling company, one would expect the number of problems to be disproportionately large due to its relative inexperience. The flip side of being a new player in a market often means you simply have had the benefit of learning from everyone else's mistakes and can enter the market with very little teething problems at all. Since I have heard of very few problems with Spikes, I would tend to believe that they have learned from the mistakes of others and have been very quick to correct issues. Their quick rise from sub-standard to top tier would seem to indicate that as well.

I don't know if Spikes being a small company will force them out of business or not, but I do know that the larger companies seem to be the ones having the most issues these days. Bushmaster, one of the largest AR sellers in America is going through such issues as I type this. The internet has made people much more savvy in their purchases these days and small vendors producing quality can often be more profitable than large ones. Time will tell, but if their multi-week lead time is any indicator, it would seem that Spikes is currently on the rise and not in decline.

 

[Welding Rod]

the question is not how many guns are made or how fast they make them the question is about quality

GAP rifles are making less than 1000 rifles a year and they are some of the highest quality bolt rifles on the market

quantity does not equal quality in ANY market

True.

Low quantity can be of excellent quality, and high production does not in itself mean high quality.

However minimal production, a bargin price, and high quality is unusual.

I remember when CMMG was the rage on the AR site and I followed the internet advice to a sore disappointment.

Good on Spike's if they are able to pull it off, but I will remain skeptical for a few more years until their quality has had more time to be proven. I know their spec sheet is supposed to look good, but there is more to a good gun (and a good gun company) than material specs.

 

[john5036]

Wow, this thread got really information rich, pretty quickly. All in all, I'm satisfied with my decision to get a Spikes, and I'm looking forward to being satisfied with the actual rifle. So in my case, time will tell, but the varied opinions seem to indicate that I made an informed decision and I guess that's what the OP intended.

 

[M1key]

Just picked up a Spikes Tactical upper...to go along with my Colt, Bushmaster, Stag Arms, Rock River, Daniel Defense, CMMG, and whatever else...dang this is getting expensive. I wish you guys would stop.

M

 

[blackops]

They did at one time, It was called the M1 Garand

I said they don't always, not never.

 

[M&PVolk]

Welding Rod wrote:

However minimal production, a bargin price, and high quality is unusual.

Agreed. This leads me to the question that I never hear anyone really ask...is Spikes really a bargain bin price, or is the rest of the industry keeping their prices inflated?

I know Spikes is made in FL with a very business friendly tax code. I know they buy in bulk and have a minimal staff. All of that helps keep prices low, but I still wonder just how "low" they really are?

I constantly hear of people building their own guns for less than $600. This is paying retail and tax on a single individual component. The manufacturer, distributer, and retailer have already gotten their profit! Look at some of the deals that have happened towards the end of last year and throughout the beginning of this one. S&W M&P's for under $600, Daniel Defense uppers for amazingly low prices, etc. These guns, even at a highly discounted rate were not being sold for a loss.

Perhaps it is time to stop thinking "how does Spikes build a such a great product for such a low price?", and start asking "why does everyone else charge so much more for the same quality?"

 

[Mr.Davis]

Im not searching the internet for an article I already read for you. Find it yourself, are you not capable of doing so? Kewlz has read it as well, maybe he will search for you.

Your reaction is uncalled for.

It's not my responsibility to find evidence to support your claims. When you make claims that aren't supported by common knowledge, it's good etiquette to provide an accompanying link to the source of your information. It reinforces your point, and allows interested parties to learn more.

 

[john5036]

Welding Rod wrote:

Agreed. This leads me to the question that I never hear anyone really ask...is Spikes really a bargain bin price, or is the rest of the industry keeping their prices inflated?

I know Spikes is made in FL with a very business friendly tax code. I know they buy in bulk and have a minimal staff. All of that helps keep prices low, but I still wonder just how "low" they really are?

...

Perhaps it is time to stop thinking "how does Spikes build a such a great product for such a low price?", and start asking "why does everyone else charge so much more for the same quality?"

I've wondered this myself, be nice to see what all the AR companies' books say. Assuming a complete parts kit for an AR can be had for $600, and Spikes sells their completes at $800, that's a 33% profit just for that item, which considering the price points we already have to shop with, I'm more than happy to go with... and I'm sure the AR companies know that. I'd really like to see what raw materials cost and what they go for and start from there.

 

[Dimis]

Perhaps it is time to stop thinking "how does Spikes build a such a great product for such a low price?", and start asking "why does everyone else charge so much more for the same quality?"

i think you hit the nail on the head with exactly where i was trying to go with this thread

im just waiting for my check to come in and ill be taking the spikes plunge im 99% sure it will fit all of my AR needs and if not ill know better the next time around

 

[kwelz]

I trust you will not be purchasing anything from Grant @ G&RT then? I followed the entire "Spikes" saga on M4C, and Spikes is being given the raw end of the criticism unfairly, IMO. For those who are unfamiliar:

Actually I purchase a lot from Grant because he has proven himself to be a trustworthy person. Something the owner of Spikes has not been able to do.

1. Spikes used to be more of a gimmick company than a real AR maker. They were as Kwelz claims at that time. That couldn't be farther from the truth these days. They are now the most transparent AR maker in the business and are making outstanding products to the TDP spec. Not only have they put all their certifications online, but they include full signed HPI/MPI signed inspection tags on all their rifles and include a full lifetime warranty.

I myself said they really seem to have turned things around. I applaud them for that. But they have a way to go still.

2. They did raise prices after Obama, as did nearly EVERYONE else. They blamed suppliers. Others claimed to have "researched the issue" and "proven" that wasn't the case. Keep in mind the "researchers" were competitors of Spikes. The biggest mistake by Spikes was the owner opened his mouth when he shouldn't have. The rest, to me at least, is basic supply and demand. If someone doesn't buy a Spikes rifle because of this, that is up to them. How Spikes gets a bad rap for it when others don't is a bit of a mystery to me, but whatever floats your boat. This is at least an objection that I understand, if not totally agree with.

See the trend forming here? It isn't that they raised prices. It is the dishonesty of the owner. A lot of companies raised their prices. That angered a number of us to say the least. But at least most were honest about it. Spikes was not.

3. The owner of Spikes seems to have a bit of a temper and a lack of ability to use discretion. Most of what transpired would have been better left silent, but he seems unable to do so. Still, his company was being vilified for claims they never made. Furthermore, the criticism went waaaayyyy beyond what is justified. I honestly believe he should have remained silent and brought a libel suit against his detractors, which I believe would have been won by Spikes. Instead, he got dragged in and shot off his mouth. Not the best way to handle it, but I can understand why it was done.

I disagree a bit here. I think given their past that the criticism was well founded. Once again I applaud them for the progress they have made and look forward to the time when they not only make good rifles but also are a company I can buy from without feeling like I need a shower.

I will say they have become a bit of a whipping boy. But they really did bring it on themselves.

4. FWIW, at the end of all the "criticism" on M4C, Grant ran his own tests on a Spikes rifle and refused to publish his results, claiming that he had seen what "he needed" and that publishing the results "wouldn't accomplish anything". After all the trash talking and bashing, he couldn't call Spikes frauds, because I believe his tests showed Spikes to be milspec. His final comments on the issue certainly appeared sheepish. From there, Rob S, the maker of the infamous "chart" tested a Spikes for a magazine article, in which he shed a lot of light on the company and found that the product really is quality. Imagine that.

I don't think he really needed to post the results. At that point it was damned if you do damned if you don't. Spikes was no longer on the board over there. They were banned for a good reason and continue to this day to bash grant and try to slander him. That is one reason they fit in so well at Arfcom. Some people on the site like spikes rifles. But without fail any post by someone who picked up a spikes rifle turns into a "It is so much better than your BCM/Colt/Noveske" thread. So the topic is frowned upon there as of right now.

In short, the company was trashed for a price hike during the Obama cycle, and bashed by competing gun dealers for things that have been disproven. Looking at a Spikes rifle objectively, you will find it is a quality piece made to spec at a lower rate than competitors can achieve. Add in the lifetime warranty, and I see no reason to go with anyone else. If you want the Colt name, buy a Colt. If you want milspec without being charged for a name, go with Spikes. It really is that simple.

Grant isn't a "competing dealer" He carries products from a number of companies. He gave them a chance and they decided to be children about it.


I think of spikes like this
I compare it to the A.R.M.S. and Larue deal. Both companies are run by first class jerks. However at least Larue makes a good product. I tend to go other places for my mounts because of this. However if I have Larue I would not throw it out. Same with Spikes. I understand that they are making better rifles now and would not complain about having one. But if I am going to spend my hard earned money it will be with a someone like Paul who makes a proven product and doesn't cry when people question him.

So with mounts I purchase Bobro or ADM. With Rifles I purchase BCM, DD, or Noveske. But I would not turn away a Larue mount or a Spikes rifle.

 

[kwelz]

Perhaps it is time to stop thinking "how does Spikes build a such a great product for such a low price?", and start asking "why does everyone else charge so much more for the same quality?"

You almost make it sound like these other companies are trying to rip us off. Trust me that is not the case.

Many of us have asked the same question about spikes and in the end it is because they run a VERY lean operation with smaller profit margins. Nothing wrong with that at all and it is a good business plan. But it can and has lead to a couple of otherwise avoidable Customer service SNAFUS. Nothing huge and easily fixable however.

 

[Welding Rod]

I wonder how that business plan will hold up under the long term weight of a lifetime guarantee?

 

[john5036]

Let's be fair and mention that as far as m4c is concerned, the figureheads of the argument appear to resume a generic professional relationship with Spikes and have let it go. Spikes presumably asked M4C to be removed from the site and have been obliged with a ban, perhaps for archiving purposes. Even if fans from either perspective still exist and argue, when it comes to the point of this thread I think the entire debate between Spikes and M4C benefitted the consumer.

I respect and understand the personal feelings toward ethics and the bosses who lack the prudence to exercise them, but today, it's no question that these aforementioned companies produce great product now and should let those speak for the company. I think Rob Sloyer did exactly that and his posts at M4C demonstrate that with respect.

Spikes is the best $800 rifle that arguably will run with already established companies who offer similar for slightly more.

By the way, I'm not just buying one rifle, I aim for several, especially from BCM and hopefully DD sooner than later.

 

[john5036]

I wonder how that business plan will hold up under the long term weight of a lifetime guarantee?

Incentive to make a good product I want to believe is the intention. If your product is good, the lifetime guarantee is very affordable. They might also have such arrangement with their suppliers as part of the deal. Pure conjecture.

 

[LKB3rd]

By the way, isnt FN getting most of the M16 contracts over Colt?
__________________

]
All of the military M16's are made by FN, and the M4's are made at Colt in Hartford.

 

[chad1043]

I don't think he really needed to post the results. At that point it was damned if you do damned if you don't. Spikes was no longer on the board over there. They were banned for a good reason and continue to this day to bash grant and try to slander him. That is one reason they fit in so well at Arfcom. Some people on the site like spikes rifles. But without fail any post by someone who picked up a spikes rifle turns into a "It is so much better than your BCM/Colt/Noveske" thread. So the topic is frowned upon there as of right now.

Actually I have been on M4C and have seen the EXACT opposite. They close threads started by Spike owners. They bash Tom at every chance. In the last week I have seen a Builder's thread closed because he had the guts to post his own Spikes build in custom build thread. The M4C guys are censoring nazis. If you boast about a product they don't sell prepare yourself for thread closure.

I find it interesting you don't think he should post his results? Why is that. He said he was going to. The only reason he doesn't is because he would lose sales. The is the facts that I see on that forum everyday. It's too bad, because there is a wealth of knowledge there RUINED by a few guys.

 

[kwelz]

I think you need to read a bit more back and you will understand why they take the actions they have. Tom was banned for good reason and the last couple times someone has posted claiming to be Tom it turned out that they were just other Trolls. And the reason Spikes threads are usually closed is because of the number of spikes trolls that show up over there.

M4C has a wealth of knowledge. Sadly lately the Noise to signal ratio has taken a nosedive due to a number of people who have no idea what the board is really about coming over and posing how great their new Spikes/DPMS/BM is. Then they get upset when they are told they dont' have the best product.

Also please make sure you get your facts strait. There are a lot of products they don't recommend over there that some of the vendors still sell. EoTech comes to mind here. As does S&W(Rifles).

I find it interesting you don't think he should post his results? Why is that. He said he was going to. The only reason he doesn't is because he would lose sales. The is the facts that I see on that forum everyday. It's too bad, because there is a wealth of knowledge there RUINED by a few guys.

How is he going to lose sales? He doesn't sell spikes. If Spikes had been more up front in the beginning then none of this would be a problem. But instead they attempted to mislead the public and got called out for it. But he achieved his goal. People that don't bother to research or question things bought into it hook line and sinker. Spikes has become the defacto brand of Ar15.com. That is great for them. I will stick with companies that.
A: Are not run by stuck up jerks.
B: Provides a good product that follows the TDP as closely as is possible.
C: Doesn't try to lie about what they provide.

Spikes does none of these things.

By the way. I encourage you to look at the documents that Tom provided. Ask yourself what is wrong with them. I guarantee you that after a bit it will hit you.

By the way. I have a gun built using some spikes parts. I have posted about it on M4C.net. And what do you know. My thread wasn't locked. Of course I also wasn't trying to stump for the company.

 

[chad1043]

I think we have covered that Tom does a poor job at controlling his feelings. Grant would lose business cause he doesn't sell Spikes and a positive response from him carries the weight of the party faithful over there. How far back do I have to search to find less Party Faithful towing the line then "trolls" posting to support Spikes. What separates the two? Being a mod who can close a thread? BTW just to be clear I have no threads in M4C and probably would never post there. Just reading your responses shows that you too are pulling the line as well.

"By the way. I encourage you to look at the documents that Tom provided. Ask yourself what is wrong with them. I guarantee you that after a bit it will hit you."

Why don't you point out where you think the lies are? Call him out yourself if you think he is being dishonest. People have been spouting that lie for as long as the figures came out.

I'll tell you what no other company has been hit broadside by so many. Why is Daniel Defense or Bravo Company held to such high a standard? I think we all know why? It's called sponsorship and it's what pays the bills...