'splain me the fnh and 5.7x28

[CAnnoneer]

I don't get it:

1) An AP round for civilian use? Neighborhood BGs in body armor?
2) 5.7mm AP round having less overpenetration than 9mm?
3) 5.7mm AP round expending all energy in target? In unarmored target?

Something is amiss here.

 

[GunGoBoom]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148547&highlight=piker*

 

[epijunkie67]

OK, since I have one of these I'll throw in a few personal observations. Someone said they thought this should be a concealed carry piece. Only if you're an NFL linebacker. This is NOT a small gun. When I first bought mine I did a side by side comparison with a CZ 52. They are almost the exact same size and both fire a high speed round. And both penetrate body armor using FMJ ammo.

Civilians are not supposed to be able to aquire the "armor piercing" rounds. All ammo distributed to the civilian population has be declared nonarmor piercing by the ATF. That includes the SS192 ammo. FN stopped importing even that so they could switch over to a heavier slower V-Max bullet. However, on some ballistics tables I've seen the newer round can still be pushed to over 2000 fps out of the pistol. I expect that a 43 (? I think) grain ballistic tipped round moving at 2000 fps would be something most of us would want to avoid getting shot with.

This gun has no recoil. Seriously. It kicks less than a .32. My GF is a nonshooter but wanted a bedside weapon she could use when I work nights. She doesn't mind practicing enough to learn to shot a pistol effectively (forget the rifle or shotgun suggestions. That got vetoed by her right away) but hates recoil. I tried her on every pistol I own. Full sized 1911 with weak ammo, 4" steel frame 357 firing target .38s, Bursa .380, the whole range. They all had too much recoil for her to be willing to use. The only thing she liked was my .22 buckmark, which would make a better club than a self defense weapon.

I saved the FN57 for last because I hoped she'd find something else she liked first. (It's my most expensive pistol man!) Sure enough, 5 rounds through it and she declares "This thing rocks. I love it. There's no recoil!" It's like shooting a target .22 from a recoil standpoint. She then dumped about 40 rounds into a saucer sized area rapid fire at 10 meters.

Lets see, 20 round mag, no recoil so follow up shots are as fast as you can pull the trigger, energy equivelent to 9mm. Yeah, I feel sorry for the bastard that breaks into my house when I'm at work some night.

 

[MP]

Hey, Just stumbled along this forum. I have a five seven and love it, untill they banned the ss192 and ss195 rounds, glad I have pleny to last through hard times . I will vouch for the fact that the ss195 & ss195 rounds are not just a maketing pitch. I shot a cantaloup with my 50 Desert Eagle and one with a ss192 round. The 50 AE obviously had a 1/2' entry and larger exit. The ss 192 had a pinhole entry, and about a 2' exit. Absouloutly incredible. Although they are now unavailable, and the new v-max rounds are worthless unless huntins rabbits.

P.S.-- I carry my five seven on a sholder rig in the winter with 2 extra 20 round clips in the winter. Summer, I stay with my Kimber CDP ultra on my hip.

my 2 cents, Mike

 

[GregGry]

I can still buy the ss192 and ss195 ammo without a problem, its not discontinued. Also, I have seen what a .50ae does to pineapples, it has no exit hole, the entire thing just explodes.

 

[SixForSure]

Hey, Just stumbled along this forum. I have a five seven and love it, untill they banned the ss192 and ss195 rounds,

The SS195 was replaced by the SS195LF (lead Free), 28.5gr bullet at 2100fps (per FN specs) and is available.

 

[MP]

I have been told, and read in many places that the ss195 has been banned from importing. All that is available is what got in before the bann. If I am wrong , and just feeding into some bs, I would love to see some info on the subject. I have been buying up ss195 ammo, as my five seven is worthless without it. Thanks, Mike

Here is a part of an article and a link:

ATF Ammo Classification
The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA (Gun Control Act). Specifically, as defined in 18 USC Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term “armor piercing ammunition” means:

1. A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

2. A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the “SS196.” The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40-grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4&Mac186; inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).

The ATF Technical Branch bulletin also lists all the different types of ammunition manufactured for the Five-seveN pistol, whether or not available in the US commercial market. They list

SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS195 - “Green”—lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not A
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law), and
10700005 Dummy.

http://www.gunweek.com/2005/hs022005.html

 

[Stiletto Null]

Someone's working up another commercial loading that's full-velocity, 40gr. Same speed and heavier round.

Ought to be interesting, I think it'll actually be out as SS197.

Anyway, I would still rather have something in .40 or .45 with good hollowpoints for normal carry, since people usually won't have body armor. SS190 isn't available to us civvies anyway.

 

[MP]

Good to hear. So am I waisting by money stocking up on ss195's???? Seem like these guns got a bad rap from the AP status. We should never be in a situation that will need ap rounds. That is not my appreciation for them. I like the low recoil, neighborhood frindly, high cap, and not intimidating for my girl to shoot. What good is a self defense weapon if you are not 100% comfortable with it. I stand by my Kimber CDP ultra 45, but my girl loves the FN. She will shoot the 45, or the 50 AE at the range, but in in tactical classes or in a home and life defense situation, if we were ever unfortunate to have one, I know she is most comfortable and best suited with an FN with a mounted M6X. Thanks, Mike

 

[MathMind]

Penetration Power of 5.7X28

There are two ways to look at all bullets. There is knock-down power and penetration power. The 45 is the best for knock down because it is delivering about a half ounze of lead to the target, but it's power delivery at the point of entry is about 2300 ft-lbs (really close)per square inch. It will not penetrate as well as this 5.7X28 round because that round has over 9800 ft-lbs per square inch of pentration power. Interestingly enough there are a lot of bullets that have much higher penetration power than the 45. The table below is for you to see and make up your own mind. But - this little round 5.7 round is mean. Your girlfriend can keep pulling the trigger and eventually the perpetrator will get indigestion. Personally, I am a fan of smaller calibers and I love this round (and the 22 mag).

Pentration Power of Various Calibers
CALIBER OF BULLET Energy of Bullet Energy(ft-lbs.)
in ft-lbs at muzzle of Bullet per in2
(1 in/Area x Energy)
45 ACP 368 2,314
17 HMR (rifle) 250 11,014
22 Magnum 322 8,471
22 Long Rifle 104 2,736
25 ACP 66.3 1,350
32 ACP 129 1,603
380 188 1,657
40 S&W 499 3,970
9mm 382 3,633
10mm 584 4,797
5.7X28 (.224) 390 9,896

Don't get those numbers confused with knock down power. The 45 delivers all its energy shortly after entering the target. This means if a body was to get hit with over a ton in 25 milliseconds, they are going down. The smaller calibers tend to go through the target because they are applying so much power to such a little area. The smaller calibers require you know where to aim. Your choice, hope this helps.
I personally like the Lead-Free hollow point round. That lead-free is because after all the wars Europe has had they now have a law called Restriction on Hazardous Substancesl (RoHS) which is to eliminate lead from their products. FNH is a Belgium Company. Of course, the first inch of European soil is made of dirt and lead from wars.

 

[MathMind]

That last post was confusing to me and I wrote it. Word processor on this site needs work.
Easier to read if:

Pentration Power of Various Calibers
CALIBER, Energy(ft-lbs.), Energy per Square inch
45 ACP, 368, 2,314
17 HMR (rifle), 250, 11,014
22 Magnum, 322, 8,471
22 Long Rifle 104, 2,736
25 ACP 66.3, 1,350
32 ACP 129, 1,603
380 188, 1,657
40 S&W 499, 3,970
9mm 382, 3,633
10mm 584, 4,797
5.7X28 (.224) 390, 9,896

try again

 

[Phil DeGraves]

There is NO SUCH THING as KNOCKDOWN POWER! Stopping a living target depends only on bullet placement and penetration. Large holes cause more bleeding than small holes which will lower blood pressure quicker. "Energy Transfer" is a MYTH. Accuracy is the only thing that counts as long as the projectile penetrates enough to damage the vitals. Energy is expended onto the projectile striking the target in the form of heat and expansion. Expansion works not by "depositing energy in the target" but by creating a larger wound channel damaging more tissue. Hydrostatic shock (the "splash" that you see when shooting at water jugs or fruit) which is caused by the rapid displacement of fluid in the target is not achievable in targets the size of human beings unless the velocity is an excess of 2600 FPS.

 

[highlander 5]

it looks like an interesting pistol to take to the range for beginners but self defence? Whem has anyone here been attacked by a mob of enraged butterflies

 

[CornCod]

I think the jury's still out on the effectiveness of the round. However, its nice to see some innovation on the part of the firearms industry to try to deal seriously with the idea of recoil in combat handguns. A lot of people don't like to bring the topic up because of the macho factor of guys being convinced they can control the more brutish cartridges as a point of honor.

The very idea of a handgun that can fire an effective cartridge with recoil that rates just a bit more than a .22 is a very attractive concept. Maybe the FiveSeven will fill the bill, maybe it won't. Perhaps the idea needs refining.

Actually, the concept came from a NATO requirement for a PDW, or personal defense weapon. NATO thinks that some troops need a kind of modernized M-1 Carbine type weapon AND a replacement for the 9mm submachinegun. Folks can argue that a light rifle in 5.56 makes either a PDW or a pistol caliber subgun obsolete; maybe so.

I would love to get one of these weapons and try one out myself, but I don't have $850.00 to throw around. Chambering exisiting weapons for it presents a lot of techincal problems because you are essentially firing a rifle type bullet out of a handgun. It would be neat to see some of the more bargain type gun manufactuers take a risk and make a cheaper platform for the 5.7.Taurus call yer office!!!!!!!

 

[Lonestar]

Ammo is expensive, the gun is expensive. While it has little recoil the FiveSeven is a very, very loud (whattt???). Will definately overpenetrate, so its not the best thing to have for Home defense if your neighbors are close. If the Democrats and antis take control this is the first gun they will go after.

Too much headaches. An AR pistol shooting .223 or a .22 magnum seem to be a better option.

 

[loki.fish]

To the OP. This round has drawn more criticism than probably any other. It's a whole new caliber war. Discussing it just causes a very long argument.

On another note. I own a FiveseveN. I enjoy shooting it. It's extremely accurate and very easy to rapid fire and still be pretty accurate. Like it's been mentioned before, there's pretty much no recoil whatsoever. Only drawback, ammo isn't cheap. Roughly $25 for 50 rounds. Guess it could be worse.

Chambering exisiting weapons for it presents a lot of techincal problems because you are essentially firing a rifle type bullet out of a handgun.

I was at the Machine Gun shoot in Kentucky last week. There's supposedly an upper coming out for ARs that's chambered in 5.7x28. I can't remember the date it's supposed to be out, but I did see it there. I'm wanting to say the end of November. The receiver said 5.56 like normal, but when I looked up at the upper, it read plain as day 5.7x28. Caught me off guard.

 

[Stiletto Null]

The Rheinland Arms upper? Was it the one that used P90 mags and ejected down the magazine well?

How'd it look/function?

 

[progunner1957]

Like the Smith & Wesson 500 magnum revolver, the only reason I would want one is because the antigun bigots get their bowels in such an uproar over them!

IMHO, my $900 would be better spent on a Bushmaster AR15 variant or a 1911.

 

[Stiletto Null]

Personally, $900 would translate into a .30-06 or 7x57 FN-49. Or maybe a .308, but I hear those tend to be over $1000.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Let me see, $900.00 to spend as I want? at least three differenc conversion kits for my EAA Witness, and ammo to go with each.

Any leftover, range cost and targets!

 

[panzermk2]

Al keep in mind it was inspired by the 10mm based BOZ round and I know how you feel about the 10MM

 

[Big Gay Al]

Honestly, I think it looks like a nice weapon. I've handled one in my favorite gun store, and it feels good in the hand. I just can't justify spending $900.00 on one gun.

But if I did, I'd NEVER carry it outside my house. The last thing I'd want is to shoot someone with it in self-defense and then have it held by police while they investigate the shooting. I'd be lucky if I ever got it back.

 

[strambo]

If your gun counter jockey claims that it tumbles and fragments on impact then he is nuts. The only way that a bullet can penetrate Kevlar or ceramics it to absolutely maintain its integrity.

Yes and no. Apples and oranges. A bullet needs to maintain stability and integrity encountering fiber or a hard object to penetrate it. If same bullet encounters a fluid medium the stresses go up and stability can go out the window. Bullets tend to de-stabalize quickly in fluid environment. So, the same projectile can penetrate the vest like butter then tumble in the body. The 5gr and 62 gr 5.56 projectiles will do the same...penetrate Kevlar, tumble/fragment rapidly in a body.

If armor penetration was a concern for me, I'd get one...since it isn't, no thanks. It would be fun to play with one of the wildcat calibers like .224 Zipperer that spank the 5.7X28. I think that one is a .45ACP necked down to .223 if I remember correctly.

 

[Stiletto Null]

.45ACP (11.4x23mm) vs. .223 (5.56x45mm)...I wonder how much more case capacity the .223 would actually have, considering its case head size of like .36 or something like that (versus the .470 of the .45ACP).

Also, I wonder how SS190-spec bullets would behave coming out of an AR.

 

[slicknickns]

How effective is the round against unarmoured target though, say for home defense or for a sidearm on a police officer's belt?