Xdm 45 or fnh 5.7x28

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I have yet to see any caliber that gets people more worked up than 5.7.

The trade made was excellent financially. Even if he doesn't like the FiveSeven he can sell it and get another XDM plus a lot of extra ammo so it sounds like a no lose there.

As for the gun itself, I really enjoy shooting mine. I reload for it some and it comes out to some very low cost plinking around ammo. Even factory stuff is reasonable if you shop around.

I would say he made a very good trade overall.
 
Which begs the question, 481, what would be reliable data to you? Keep in mind, the 5-7 isn't just used in "third-world" scenarios. It is backed by NATO, it was used in the Ft. Hood shooting (documented in American newspapers), it has been labelled a "cop killer" round by the media (okay, bad example, the .22 could have earned that rep).

Certainly, none of those things.

Reviewing my posts I can find nowhere where I've made the claim that the 5.7 is used only in third-world countries. Perhaps you are recalling something someone else said in another thread.

So its "backed" by NATO as are the 9mmNATO and the 5.56NATO. Same "backing" by the same entity. Are they all now equal because of this "backing"? I am not so sure that this "backing" proves much of anything.

As for reliable data, I'd wanna see laboratory controlled evaluations of these 5.7 "wonder-rounds" that we keep hearing about, with and without having to defeat various barriers and armors, in calibrated ordnance gelatin before I'd be willling to accept all of the hyperbole that is being shoveled in this thread.
 
"It was the general opinion of two military surgeons with oversea deployment and a trauma surgeon who operated on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, that nobody could survive a 5.7x28mm S4M torso hit unless it took place right in the operating room.. and even then it would be at best a toss up."

What in the world is that from? That seems a ridiculous and disproven claim for .223 rounds from a full length rifle. I don't see why it would be true for a lighter, slower, round coming out of a pistol.

Since this thread seems to be attracting some drama, I'd like to point out that I'm someone looking to go from the guns that were passed down to me through the family to getting some of my own. At least one of which I'd like to be a home defense pistol. So I'm in the market with an open mind as opposed to having a calibre I'm married to.
 
I think of it has a miniature 5.56NATO cartridge. It has all the advantages and disadvantages that you've heard a million times about the 5.56NATO but scaled down and fired from a PDW or pistol. The cartridge is a niche round with a cult following and seems a bit pricey to plink. IMHO it's a decent round but overrated. The proprietary and odd weapons keep it from gaining more acceptance.
 
Interesting. Perhaps it depends on your previous experience with firearms to accurately compare and contrast the differences. Everybody I have ever handed my Five-seveN to for a test run had that "kid in a candy store" look when he gave it back. No, it is not crack cocaine, but I have read enough threads from new 5.7 owners and reviews from "experts" to know that firing it for the first time definitely creates a big impression in the vast majority of people. It's fun as hell to shoot, that's the long and short of it.

All having had decades of experience against which to "compare and contrast the differences", I and several fellow Officers (five of them and I) were not moved in the manner that you described- the "kid in a candy store" look, when we fired it, unless one finds appealing a round that generates excessive muzzle signature for what effect it has.

As you might've noticed, when people start employing glowing superlatives to make their point, not everyone (I am but one of such a group) buys into the hyperbole being espoused and for good reason. Most of the time, it simply is not the case.

Your signature line is a fine example of such prose....

"It was the general opinion of two military surgeons with oversea deployment and a trauma surgeon who operated on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, that nobody could survive a 5.7x28mm S4M torso hit unless it took place right in the operating room.. and even then it would be at best a toss up."

....since without the names (or a reference source) of those two military surgeons and the trauma surgeon purported to have worked on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, it is hard to accept, let alone verify, that three such physicians made such specific comment regarding one specific loading (the S4M) in a relatively obscure caliber especially since other military calibers would produce a similar problem given identical (torso hit) placement.

Do you have a source for the quotation in your signature line?

This is not intended to make you discard your signature line (I hope that you'll keep it), but realize that the cartridge has had one and a half decades to exceed, supercede and supplant all of the other cartridges claimed to be "inferior" to it and it has yet to do so. The markets, both military and civilian, have spoken to that already there being at present only one pistol, one rifle and a few hard to find "specialty" rounds.
 
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I think of it has a miniature 5.56NATO cartridge. It has all the advantages and disadvantages that you've heard a million times about the 5.56NATO but scaled down and fired from a PDW or pistol. The cartridge is a niche round with a cult following and seems a bit pricey to plink. IMHO it's a decent round but overrated. The proprietary and odd weapons keep it from gaining more acceptance.

If anything the cartridge is underrated as evidenced by the numerous ballistic tests that keep popping up all over the web. Many people like to call it "just a 22 mag"; clearly it's not.
 
All having had decades of experience against which to "compare and contrast the differences", I and several fellow Officers (five of them and I) were not moved in the manner that you described- the "kid in a candy store" look, when we fired it, unless one finds appealing a round that generates excessive muzzle signature for what effect it has.

Sounds to me like you guys had your minds made up before you even got together to shoot it. Not unlike this fine gentleman:

Against my will, I was impressed.

The difference is you are more stubborn. Like they say, haters are gonna hate.


Your signature line is a fine example of such prose....

....since without the names (or a reference source) of those two military surgeons and the trauma surgeon purported to have worked on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, it is hard to accept, let alone verify, that three such physicians made such specific comment regarding one specific loading (the S4M) in a relatively obscure caliber especially since other military calibers would produce a similar problem given identical (torso hit) placement.

Do you have a source for the quotation in your signature line?

Of course I have a source for the quotation in my signature line. Do you think I would have attached such a bold statement to each one of my posts if it were untrue or unverifiable? I plan on keeping it for a while because it makes the haters cringe... :p

It really isn't that big of a claim; nearly everybody Hasan shot at Fort Hood center mass died and they received immediate medical attention. Those that survived were mostly shot in limbs and other non-vital areas. This was using FN's watered-down factory ammo. Had he been using S4M? Ouch... Then again, stopping power is another word for accuracy, so perhaps S4M wouldn't have made much of a difference. Dead is dead. Sorry for bringing up again a very distasteful event.

The 5.7x28mm is a nasty round and perfectly capable of doing everything to bipedal threats that other common self-defensive calibers can. The key is and always will be -- aim.


but realize that the cartridge has had one and a half decades to exceed, supercede and supplant all of the other cartridges claimed to be "inferior" to it and it has yet to do so. The markets, both military and civilian, have spoken to that already there being at present only one pistol, one rifle and a few hard to find "specialty" rounds.

There is no reason to think that the Five-seveN was created to replace all current handgun calibers -- that is absurd. The Five-seveN is merely the highest tech pistol on the market and gives us a glimpse of the future in pistol design. Guns will get lighter, bullets will get faster, bullet intelligence or behavior if you will, will get smarter.

The Five-seveN obviously does things no other production pistol can, and has advantages that many production pistols do not, but it doesn't mean you have to toss your Glock in the trash. The thought of me caring a Glock instead of my Five-seveN makes me chuckle, but that doesn't mean you are a fool for carrying your Glock.

I could show you videos of the Five-seveN doing things that would make people say wow. But those videos are private and I have no interest in putting that kind of info out publicly. The Five-seveN is an ample self-defensive choice and a unique one at that. That is all you need to know.
 
Since this thread seems to be attracting some drama, I'd like to point out that I'm someone looking to go from the guns that were passed down to me through the family to getting some of my own. At least one of which I'd like to be a home defense pistol. So I'm in the market with an open mind as opposed to having a calibre I'm married to.

Watch this video then go to the range and try one out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qudAKMWgZ8w
 
Sounds to me like you guys had your minds made up before you even got together to shoot it.

The difference is you are more stubborn. Like they say, haters are gonna hate.

Since you cannot possibly know our respective states of mind and the experiences that we brought to the table collectively, everyone can just chalk this up to another instance of your proclivity to speculate without basis. The experience that you bring to the table is that you've shot a friend's Glock 17 and rented a couple of other guns as of March 2, 2011 as you state here in your first post on THR provided by this link- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578349 correct?

Of course I have a source for the quotation in my signature line. Do you think I would have attached such a bold statement to each one of my posts if it were untrue or unverifiable?

Please provide it. I (and others here, no doubt) would like to see the context in which such a bold statement was attributed to those three physicians.

I could show you videos of the Five-seveN doing things that would make people say wow. But those videos are private and I have no interest in putting that kind of info out publicly. The Five-seveN is an ample self-defensive choice and a unique one at that. That is all you need to know.

Given your advocation on the 5.7's claimed abilities, I'd think that you'd wish to employ such earth-shaking evidence in support of your claims. Fortunately, they remain safe in your private, guarded vault with the rest of your secret videos that shouldn't be seen by unprepared human eyes. :)
 
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Watch this video then go to the range and try one out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qudAKMWgZ8w

I can believe it'd be great to shoot...if you're comparing it to self defense rounds. It should give comparatively low recoil and great external ballistics in a lightweight frame.

The whole issue I think everybody would have with it is if it should be compared to full strength SD guns or is it a very very expensive plinker? I don't think it's going to win out in the "fun to shoot" catagory when compared with my trusty .22s.

I'm...not sure. But I've got reservations. It was made for a SMG weapon, which is illegal to have in the military varient (meaning you have a full length weapon and could as easily have a regular rifle cartridge). The military rounds aren't legal either I believe. And they weren't made to be good against unarmored assailents in the first place, but rather they wanted a round that could at least some something, anything, against somebody with standard body armor of a certain spec.

Worries I've got are deflection off of angled surfaces (like bone) which light and fast rounds tend to have trouble with.

Then there is the yaw, which seems highly unpredictable, and prone to doing this to your shot placement. (This was the first video that came up when I went looking for 5.7x28mm test results)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk

A while back somebody here also posted some results where the rounds (probably JHP or something) were shattering on impact and not even having the little bits make ten inches of penetration.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58350&stc=1&d=1179867542

Also people say a lot of mean stuff about the .223 if it's fired out of a short barrel or after it's lost a lot of velocity, and it would seem we're starting about there, at least with the heavier rounds.

Anyway, I'm new to looking into this round, but those are my concerns.
 
481, you made posts saying the articles were from third-world countries. There are articles from the US that slander it as a "cop-killer".
 
And they weren't made to be good against unarmored assailents in the first place, but rather they wanted a round that could at least some something, anything, against somebody with standard body armor of a certain spec.

This is probably the most overlooked aspect of the cartridge and platform development by the fanboys.

It was intended to provide rear echelon troops with a PDW that could penetrate PASGT helmets and vests at 50 meters, something a 9mm SMG could not do. And it was meant to do that many times, as witnessed by the combination of a low-recoiling cartridge and high ROF weapon. The pistol was simply meant as a companion for the P90.

Us lowly civilians get neither the compact and high cyclic rate firearm or the correct ammunition that makes this cartridge effective.

IMO, using a Five-seveN pistol for defense is like employing a 20" barreled single-shot .50 BMG for anti-aircraft use. The effective platform for the 5.7x28mm as a defensive gun is a fast firing subgun, just as the effective AA platform for .50 BMG is a high ROF, long barreled machine gun.

I maintain that it's an interesting little cartridge and pistol, but that it's massively overpriced. Bring the gun to $500 and ammo to $12/50, and it becomes appealing. But at $1k for the pistol and $0.40/round for the cheap stuff, FN can keep it. For my .22 caliber, massive-muzzle blast enjoyment, I'll keep my $329 PMR-30 and $10/box ammo.
 
I was checking on 5.7 prices and came across some FNARs on sale for about $80.00 less than the 5.7s.

So, I'd like to do some long distance ice block pulverizing, but by time I walked back to the shooting table that ice block would have had a meltdown.

I've shot the 5.7 about 5-6 years ago, still get more of that "WOW" feeling shooting my Colt. in 38 Super, 357mag bullets at mag MVs with G17 recoil. Shoots very flat and is accurate to 160yds, haven't tried further.

Enjoy busting up those ice blocks with all that hi tech stuff, I'll carry 100 year old tech in the real world. :)
 
I too would like to see these "secret videos" that will blow our untrained eyes and that makes you "chuckle" at the thought of carrying anything else. Please share your vast knowledge with us simple folk. And a link to the "doctors" statement you like to refer too.
 
This is probably the most overlooked aspect of the cartridge and platform development by the fanboys.

It's main purpose is definitely armor piercing but I'm happy with the performance I've seen from this round with other loadings. To each their own really.
 
Also people say a lot of mean stuff about the .223 if it's fired out of a short barrel or after it's lost a lot of velocity, and it would seem we're starting about there, at least with the heavier rounds.

Keep in mind that the military rounds were designed to be used from a 20" barrel. From a 14.5" barrel they still have good effects at shorter ranges, but at longer ranges their capabilities start to wane. The 5.7 was designed for a shorter barrel to begin with.

Like I said, I think the velocity of the round increases its effectiveness beyond simply the caliber, and there are attractive features of the 5.7 other than the amount of damage it can cause.

I think the 5.7 is doing better than another unique round, the .50 GI, but both suffer the same problem - they're propietary. You don't see 5-6 brands making guns in the chambering and you don't see dozens of ammo manufacturers making ammo for it. The guns for the caliber are pricey, and the ammo isn't cheap either. Let others make them, and you might see a drop in price, an increase in options, and thus more people will buy them.
 
The 5.7 was designed for a shorter barrel to begin with.

Well yeah, but it was designed for 10.4 inches short not 4.8 inches short.


Like I said, I think the velocity of the round increases its effectiveness beyond simply the caliber, and there are attractive features of the 5.7 other than the amount of damage it can cause.

It's main purpose is definitely armor piercing but I'm happy with the performance I've seen from this round with other loadings. To each their own really.

What are you guys refering to precisely with the effectiveness/performance comments there.

I don't think anybody is dissing the thing's external ballistics.

The whole issue is if the thing can end fights. Now, I'm given to understand that out of a 4.8 inch barrel, the ammo availible to civilians is not a "cop killer". So we don't have the armor piercing thing going on with this round any more than other SD rounds.

So the issue then is how it does against flesh and bone, and you can see my concerns above.

I'd really really really like this round to be a winner. I'm not tied to anything yet, would apprecite the precision,recoil, and capacity, and I like the idea of modern science advancing handgun effectiveness.

However I'm concerned that we're just misusing something made to be used in an entirely different way by the military, and if you wanted a low recoil high capacity SD round maybe you'd be better off with .25ACP.
 
I think the 5.7 is doing better than another unique round, the .50 GI, but both suffer the same problem - they're propietary. You don't see 5-6 brands making guns in the chambering and you don't see dozens of ammo manufacturers making ammo for it. The guns for the caliber are pricey, and the ammo isn't cheap either. Let others make them, and you might see a drop in price, an increase in options, and thus more people will buy them.

I believe there are three companies including FNH obviously that have 5.7 chambered handguns and 4 total that make a firearm chambered in that round. Savage has a rifle or rifles chambered in it.

The whole issue is if the thing can end fights. Now, I'm given to understand that out of a 4.8 inch barrel, the ammo availible to civilians is not a "cop killer". So we don't have the armor piercing thing going on with this round any more than other SD rounds.

So the issue then is how it does against flesh and bone, and you can see my concerns above.

In the cases where it has been seen being used, it worked just as good as standard service calibers with just the FNH SS197 loadings. (I refuse to name that one shooting but you know what it is.) You can get rounds as a civilian that pierce armor, go on Gunbroker and search for SS190, that's the LEO and Military AP ammo plus there are non-FNH ammo sources that have armor that pierces armor.

However I'm concerned that we're just misusing something made to be used in an entirely different way by the military, and if you wanted a low recoil high capacity SD round maybe you'd be better off with .25ACP.

If something like that was ever made that we can own in this country but even then, I would take a PMR 30 over what you describe. .25 ACP is pretty pathetic as a SD round IMO. Sure it can end fights and kill with one shot but most of the time, .22LR and .25 ACP (they are close enough in ballistics) end with the guy running away and then maybe bleeding out. 5.7 x 28 is a much much better round than .25 ACP could ever be out of the same type of weapon.
 
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I'm not referring to the external ballistics, but to what something >2000 FPS does to the human body that something at 1100 FPS doesn't.

527, what are the other companies that produce 5.7 handguns? I'm not interested in a 5.7 rifle.
 
I'm not going to weigh in on the effectiveness or ballistics of the 5.7, because it is something I have zero experience with. I am, however, intrigued, simply because it has people so excited. I am put off by the price point, and I still plan on buying a .45 before anything else.

I'm with a lot of the other people here that want to see some citation for the claims that get thrown around, but alas, it's the internet, at least we people have resorted to CAPS LOCK SCREAMING AT EACH OTHER, yet. The whole, "I have a source for information, but I'm not going to tell you, nanny nanny boo boo" garbage should be left out entirely, IMO. If you know something, say it, back it up, stop acting childish.

Again, I have no information, but I would like to learn, I'm sure others are as put off as I am at the nitpicking. Make an assertion, back it up with fact, or clarify it as personal experience; without qualifying your information, its hearsay.

Rant over.
 
481, you made posts saying the articles were from third-world countries. There are articles from the US that slander it as a "cop-killer".

Many of the articles were also from Mexico (arguably an under-developed nation), but the point still stands. Regardless of their origin, the plural of "newspaper article" is still not "data".

What I find to be very interesting is that our friend G|0cKbYtE seems to have "gone silent" after being asked to provide a citable source for his signature line by those of us here (three of us so far, including me, by my count) who would like to see the context in which such a bold statement was attributed to those three physicians.

Until now G|0cKbYtE has been forthcoming with all sorts of sources, but seems to have suddenly found better things to do when asked to provide a source in support of the claim made in his signature line after making the statement:

Of course I have a source for the quotation in my signature line. Do you think I would have attached such a bold statement to each one of my posts if it were untrue or unverifiable? I plan on keeping it for a while because it makes the haters cringe... :p

The jury is out on the veracity of the claims made (both in his signature line and that a verifiable source for it actually exists) until such time that G|0cKbYtE can provide what he claims he can provide.

I'd ask again and kindly, that he provide the source that he claims to possess in support of the claims made in his signature line.
 
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I'll agree that the signature sounds like an exageration, but I still feel it offers a bit more than what the 100-yo calibers and their cousins can offer.
 
527, what are the other companies that produce 5.7 handguns? I'm not interested in a 5.7 rifle.

MasterPiece Arms has one in prototype but soon to be released form and Excel Arms is making two handguns and two carbines. You can read about it here. http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9132

I also forgot, there is the 57 upper for AR 15s.

What would set this round off (no pun intended) would be a major company like Glock to chamber a handgun for the round and release on the market for us civies for around $500.
 
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I've looked at the AR57 and really don't see the advantage over AR15. You lose a lot of top rail real estate and have some bulk from the lower still there that IMO doesn't need to be. If you want the extra ammo, that's what beta c-mags are for.

I do agree, if a major company like Glock had one in the same basic platform as their others, it would jump in popularity.
 
I've looked at the AR57 and really don't see the advantage over AR15. You lose a lot of top rail real estate and have some bulk from the lower still there that IMO doesn't need to be. If you want the extra ammo, that's what beta c-mags are for.

Agreed, might as well stick with the more potent and popular .223/5.56 at that point.
 
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