Xdm 45 or fnh 5.7x28

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Didn't say it was better just that it's there. Looks fun though. Although the bulk on the lower that you refer to is the magwell and I can't see that being a problem and those beta mags add a lot more bulk and weight. Those surefire 60 round mags though...
 
Add another forum member who would like to see what surgeons made what quote/s. No verification and it didn't happen.

A blog at Cheaper Than Dirt compared the 5.7 to the 22WMR;

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=769

In that blog civilian ammunition could be used on small game, rabbit size. Since I live in high density mountain lion habitat, I'm to assume that the 5.7 is inadequate on dangerous game where I live. Higher probability encounters, other than felons, would be charging javelina and large feral dogs.

Reading over some DEA incident reports, 2007 IIRC, I was surprised at the number of attacking pit bulls that survived after being shot/wounded during door entry operations; 40 S&W.

Felons come in all sizes and shapes; some are huge, especially some of those who have been pumping iron during their prison years.

Given all this, are we to believe that the 5.7 is superior to other service calibers?

This thread has opened my eyes in a number of different ways, but given my life experiences on the street and against four legged vermin, I'll pass on the 5.7 for carry, same for the 22WMR. :)
 
In that blog civilian ammunition could be used on small game, rabbit size. Since I live in high density mountain lion habitat, I'm to assume that the 5.7 is inadequate on dangerous game where I live. Higher probability encounters, other than felons, would be charging javelina and large feral dogs.

Reading over some DEA incident reports, 2007 IIRC, I was surprised at the number of attacking pit bulls that survived after being shot/wounded during door entry operations; 40 S&W.

Dogs are highly determined creatures with a powerful mindset, especially with the larger guard dogs. The Miami Shootout and one recent case where a cop got shot 7 times with a .45 and still prevailed shows that mindset can go a long way. There is even a video of a Navy SEAL getting tasered twice at once and remained standing. (Of course there were two people holding his arms like always during controlled Tasing but most of the time, the person getting tased stops standing.)

Given all this, are we to believe that the 5.7 is superior to other service calibers?

I just see it as equal performance to other calibers in performance regarding self defense. I'm not one for nitpicking.
 
I can believe it'd be great to shoot...if you're comparing it to self defense rounds. It should give comparatively low recoil and great external ballistics in a lightweight frame.

The whole issue I think everybody would have with it is if it should be compared to full strength SD guns or is it a very very expensive plinker? I don't think it's going to win out in the "fun to shoot" catagory when compared with my trusty .22s.

Your phrase, "compared to full strength SD guns", hints at a need for clarification on my part. The Five-seveN is indeed a "full-strength" self-defense gun.

Brassfetcher Ballistic Testing recently conducted a comprehensive wounding comparison between a couple 5.7x28mm rounds and a 230gr, .45ACP hollowpoint. Here were there findings:

As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target.

Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing


I'm...not sure. But I've got reservations. It was made for a SMG weapon, which is illegal to have in the military varient (meaning you have a full length weapon and could as easily have a regular rifle cartridge). The military rounds aren't legal either I believe. And they weren't made to be good against unarmored assailents in the first place, but rather they wanted a round that could at least some something, anything, against somebody with standard body armor of a certain spec.

The 5.7x28mm round was designed for the P90 and the Five-seveN pistol. The two weapons were developed jointly to meet NATO's two-part PDW requirement.

The military rounds (SS190) are legal, they are just restricted by FNH. SS190 can be bought on gunbroker. Regardless, EA produces 5.7 ammo that far exceeds SS190's performance against armor as well as ballistic gelatin. EA produces rounds that deliver the same energy out of the Five-seveN pistol as factory rounds do out of the P90!

Worries I've got are deflection off of angled surfaces (like bone) which light and fast rounds tend to have trouble with.

The Five-seveN has been proven to be devastating against bones. The female police officer that first responded to the Fort Hood shooting, for example, was hit once in the femur (the strongest bone in the human body) with a factory 5.7x28mm bullet, and it shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments."

I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all.

I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed. -Sgt. Kimberly Munley

Several others in the Fort Hood shooting were shot in places like the hip and went down immediately totally incapacitated.

There are also tons and tons of videos showing the Five-seveN being shot into 10lb pork shoulders and pulverizing the bone before passing through. If there is one thing the Five-seveN does extremely well, it's break bone. That can't be debated.


Then there is the yaw, which seems highly unpredictable, and prone to doing this to your shot placement. (This was the first video that came up when I went looking for 5.7x28mm test results)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk

The Five-seveN hollowpoint cartridges are nearly an inch long and tumble consistently upon entering soft tissue. I have never heard of a 5.7 hollowpoint that didn't tumble. As far as radical path changes once inside the body, I would consider that to be even more lethal. The Five-seveN carries 21 or 31 opportunities to get the job done -- getting the job done meaning hitting the CNS -- the only guaranteed stop from any pistol caliber.

A while back somebody here also posted some results where the rounds (probably JHP or something) were shattering on impact and not even having the little bits make ten inches of penetration.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58350&stc=1&d=1179867542

Ballistic tip rounds like the factory SS197 40gr V-MAX will fragment wildly in soft tissue, however they are commonly known to penetrate around 12 inches from the pistol. The picture you posted was taken from a study showing the Five-seveN to penetrate nearly 11 inches. The PS90 (16in barrel) was the weapon that yielded the lower penetration you see in the photo. That is due to the higher velocity generated from the longer barrel. SS197 explodes in tissue out of the PS90, which may or may not be desirable in some situations. There are much better loads for the PS90 than SS197 that will penetrate much deeper.

That being said, SS197 out of the Five-seveN pistol have proven to be VERY effective against medium-sized game like deer and boar as well as humans (unfortunately). It makes a very nasty cavity with many wound tracks and maintains its weight deeper into the tissue.


Also people say a lot of mean stuff about the .223 if it's fired out of a short barrel or after it's lost a lot of velocity, and it would seem we're starting about there, at least with the heavier rounds.

Anyway, I'm new to looking into this round, but those are my concerns.

Here is some brilliant info provided by a poster on this fine forum named Trent:

Let me ask you this - would you want to get hit by an AR 15 in the chest at 300 yards?

NO! Of course you wouldn't!

Now, consider this.

If you fire the EXACT SAME .224 55gr projectile, and it hits you at 100 yards from a P90, or 50 yards from an FN FiveSeven, in the same place, it will do the exact same thing to your insides. Once that projectile leaves the weapon it doesn't matter WHAT weapon fired it, or what chunk of brass it was expelled from.

The same terminal effects can't be said of a soft lead 22 rimfire.



Why doubt the experts? Let's just all run around the internet, parroting whatever they say, and accept it all as gospel. By that logic we should throw all of our guns in the furnace, because there's been a lot of irrefutable evidence that suggest that guns kill a lot of innocent people.

The 5.56 NATO cartridge has a universally accepted maximum point effective range of 550 meters, with consistent yaw at 300 meters sufficient to cause fragmenting of a standard M855 projectile. It's been in service for over 50 years and has sent a lot of enemy armed combatants off to the great beyond.

I'll repeat my previous statement - the same, exact projectile, fired from a P90/PS90, has the same energy at 100 yards as an AR-15 has at 300 yards. The FN Five Seven matches pace at 50 yards. There is more than enough energy, at those ranges, to get the job done.

We, as civilians, can purchase and use projectiles which are highly volatile. The initial 5.56 NATO cartridge - the M193 ball round, was considered to be inhumane because the tissue damage was so severe. So they went with the SS109 M855.

Quoting the same source used on the Wikipedia article:
"International Legal Initiatives to Restrict Military Small Arms Ammunition W. Hays Parks∗ Copyright 2010 by W. Hays Parks International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) page 1–18" (Which list International Committee of the Red Cross, Austria, Argentina, Belgium, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cyprus, Germany, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mauritius, Mexico, Romania, Samoa, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. as parties that consider the 55 gr M193 round to be inhumane) "

In addition to the M193 ball ammunition, civilian shooters have HUNDREDS of projectile types which they can load in to a 5.7x28mm casing. Any .224 projectile 55gr or under makes a suitable candidate. Many of those are light-skinned, highly-frangible hollowpoint projectiles which essentially detonate on impact with soft tissue. 100% of the kinetic energy is transferred to the target, and each fragment creates it's own unique wound channel through the target.

Your chances of cutting major blood vessels and disrupting central nervous system function are massively increased with multiple crushed impact tracts.

Your venerable doctor (he's talking about the dentist) makes the assumption that projectiles remain INTACT after impact - and this point is very clear in his research where he posts cross sectional comparisons of an INTACT sidelong .224 40 grain FMJBT projectile next to a 9mm which has mushroomed out.

Every single one of the 5.7x28 .224 grain projectile I have ever managed to recover has been fragmented. These projectiles - quite literally - detonate when they impact soft targets. The crush zones for tissue destruction are amplified in a cone shape interior of a couple inches from point of impact as the projectile passes through the target. They do NOT make one wound channel as 9mm/45ACP/etc will create. They make MULTIPLE wound channels as they traverse the target, each one of those channels capable of inflicting arterial or nerve damage.

In addition to permanent crush cavity, supersonic temporary cavitation cavity, and multiple wound channels, there is significant laceration capability as the jacket and core are separated and mangled upon impact. This laceration capability, while not of primary benefit to direct incapacitation, will serve to sever more muscle tissue and blood vessels than an intact projectile will.
 
We are still waiting on the link to the 3 doctors statements and your secret videos that will shock and awe and make us chuckle at the idea of carrying anything else. That's pretty much all anyone wants to see from you at this point. Thanks
 
I too would like to see these "secret videos" that will blow our untrained eyes and that makes you "chuckle" at the thoughIt of carrying anything else. Please share your vast knowledge with us simple folk. And a link to the "doctors" statement you like to refer too.

Unfortunately some of the videos I have seen on the issue are private and I was advised not to share them publicly. Considering the subject matter in the videos would provide substantial ammo to the gun-haters/banners of the world, and this is a relatively major public forum, I will not share the videos. I will tell you that some of the ballistics testing involved armor penetration and that is why the issue is sensitive. I am perfectly happy if people want to call B.S., it's probably better that way and I really shouldn't have brought that material up in the first place.

As far as a link to the doctor's statement, I will not provide it publicly at this time. The person that originally requested it is an ardent detractor of the 5.7 platform and really has no interest in learning. The study involving the quotation in my signature is readily available via Google and I think Mr. Kachok or whatever is name is, needs to go find it for himself. I will be happy to PM it to a few people in this thread who are genuinely interested in learning.

The study involved past and present members of NYPD, Harris County Sheriff's Office and Pennsylvania State Police (with a combined two centuries of experience on the streets), as well as a host of civilians ranging from experts in mathematics to trauma surgery. Test medium was everything from ballistic gelatin and body armor, to car doors, windshields, cinder blocks, and bags of steak staggered with bags of ribs. The rounds tested were a restricted Mil/Leo-only round that is in fact not available to the public (unlike SS190), and S4M (which is what I carry).
 
We are still waiting on the link to the 3 doctors statements and your secret videos that will shock and awe and make us chuckle at the idea of carrying anything else. That's pretty much all anyone wants to see from you at this point. Thanks

Who's we? You got a mouse in your pocket? Oh, I know who "we" is, "we" is the small group of Five-seveN haters that frequent every thread on the subject only to cause problems. No thanks, "we" can just enjoy the information I am willing to share. The videos are way too sensitive to be put on a public forum. It would be irresponsible and damning all at the same time. As far as the study involving the surgeon quotes... Have at it!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Five-seveN
 
If you shouldn't disclose the source publicly, you shouldn't disclose the information from the source publicly. Otherwise you hurt your cause more than help it. If it is readily available on Google, then it shouldn't be an issue to post a link here.

I'm a 5.7 supporter, but you're not helping.
 
The whole issue is if the thing can end fights.

Since the only thing that "ends a gunfight" is either a hit to the CNS or the threat deciding that entering the gunfight wasn't such a bright idea; yes, the Five-seveN has very little recoil allowing extremely fast follow-up shots on target -- it can surely end a fight. Modern rounds offered provide substantial tissue disruption as well as sufficient penetration to reach the vital areas on a human.

the ammo availible to civilians is not a "cop killer". So we don't have the armor piercing thing going on with this round any more than other SD rounds.

Incorrect, there is ammo available to civilians that penetrate all soft body armor out there. That is all I will say on that. As far as "cop killing"; bullets don't kill cops, people do... and they do it with knives, sticks, and rocks as well.


So the issue then is how it does against flesh and bone, and you can see my concerns above.

There are many threads on this subject with massive amounts of data showing bones crushed, and tissue destroyed. You should do a search and read through all the old threads. I can perhaps repost some of it again in here if I have time.

Also, you need to read about the Fort Hood incident. Just about anybody that was shot center mass died. The survivors were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas. Everybody that rushed Hasan -- and several people did with tables and chairs -- were stopped immediately and either killed or incapacitated (one person was shot in the hip shattering it and he dropped straight to the ground and out of the fight). Remember, Hasan was using watered-down factory ammo -- the stuff I carry is MUCH hotter. But it doesn't matter, shot placement is everything and a strong suit of the Five-seveN is shot placement.


However I'm concerned that we're just misusing something made to be used in an entirely different way by the military, and if you wanted a low recoil high capacity SD round maybe you'd be better off with .25ACP.

The Five-seveN pistol is a legitimate self-defense choice with either the watered down factory ammo or juiced up EA ammo. It has proven to knock big things down fast.

As far as the .25ACP comment... c'mon man.. :confused::rolleyes:

A 22 magnum is worlds beyond a .25ACP...


In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, the 5.7x28mm EA loads produce about three times the muzzle energy of the .22 Magnum.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm


The Five-seveN pistol still has more velocity/energy than the .22 Magnum even when the WMR is fired out of a 24in barrel. If we take into consideration bullet behavior, any comparison trying to be made between the two weapon systems starts to look silly. One behaves like an ice-pick, and the other a 5.56 NATO round.

Out of the PS90, depending on the grain of .224 projectile used, we are talking about a velocity range of 3,000-3,400 fps, and energy range of 670-700 ft-lbs with either fragmenting, expanding, or tumbling rounds. Of course all will penetrate armor and some rolled steel.

HHps0.jpg

gcR1D.jpg
 
If you shouldn't disclose the source publicly, you shouldn't disclose the information from the source publicly. Otherwise you hurt your cause more than help it. If it is readily available on Google, then it shouldn't be an issue to post a link here.

I'm a 5.7 supporter, but you're not helping.

I don't have a cause and I'm not concerned about hurting my "image". I shouldn't have mentioned the video, but I guess I got a little over-excited in my attempt to get the haters all frothed up. I post and cite plenty of information.

I chose not to make the link readily available because the haters need to do some work as well. All they do is sit there from there PC and cast stones at legitimate, verifiable data. If they want to bash everything, let them dig some of it up. I surely have done my homework and dug up my information on the detractors.

Send me a PM and I will be glad to share the study with you, but I cannot share the private videos. :(
 
I should add that many less savvy consumers pay upwards of 1200-1300 for a Five-seveN. I watched a guy at a gun show pay 1200 for a previously fired Five-seveN. I just walked away shaking my head. At that price you could buy 3 brand new XDm's.

Let's be honest, ..

Really, 3? How about two? Let's be honest about retail pricing. If you receive a discount it's only fair to disclose that fact.
 
What I find to be very interesting is that our friend G|0cKbYtE seems to have "gone silent" after being asked to provide a citable source for his signature line by those of us here (three of us so far, including me, by my count) who would like to see the context in which such a bold statement was attributed to those three physicians.

Until now G|0cKbYtE has been forthcoming with all sorts of sources, but seems to have suddenly found better things to do when asked to provide a source in support of the claim made in his signature line after making the statement:



The jury is out on the veracity of the claims made (both in his signature line and that a verifiable source for it actually exists) until such time that G|0cKbYtE can provide what he claims he can provide.

I'd ask again and kindly, that he provide the source that he claims to possess in support of the claims made in his signature line.

Gone silent? Am I supposed to be living on this forum? Do you know how much time I have contributed to this thread already? I have addressed your request for the link providing the quote in my signature. Seriously, do you even know how to use Google? You could find it in three seconds... Copy, paste, search...
 
All right, enough of the bickering. Surely there's enough info posted at this point for everyone to go make their own deteminations of whether they like this gun. And right now we're heading for someone saying something they shouldn't. Let it go.

By the time we're arguing about who's going to google what, the cause is lost.

Three points for all to ponder:
1) If you have secret info -- shut up about it. Secret info is ... drumroll please ... secret. Shhhhh!
2) If ANYTHING you say is said to "froth up" anyone else, go find some other forum in which to stir the pot.
3) Lots of rounds penetrate armor, steel, and other things. This is not a big secret. The "formula" for making a round that will is pretty simple and common enough. The Russians figured it out almost 100 years ago. This is not a mystery of the universe known only to a few.
 
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