Stars & Stripes:Poll of troops in Iraq sees 72% support for withdrawal within a year

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Is there some reason why this should be of concern to gun owners in particular?

That is a good question. The way I see it, success in Iraq is very strongly coupled to the fate of this administration and the political look of the country in Nov 2006/2008. A win by gungrabbers would have very direct and deplorable consequences for 2A rights.

Realgun, I think you are catching flak not so much for what you said, but for the consistency with which you raise such questions in threads that are clearly damaging to the admin. If you do the same in threads going the other way, then other posters would not have the grounds for their reactions. Then again, that may be hard, since most threads these days do go against the newest deed/undeed/misdeed by the usual suspects...
 
Realgun, I think you are catching flak not so much for what you said, but for the consistency with which you raise such questions in threads that are clearly damaging to the admin. - Cannoneer

I raise the question in threads that are off topic. If that means spurious excuses for Bush bashing get stomped on, that suits me fine.
 
Realgun...

So, take your ball and go home...we don't need it.;)
Relax, you don't have to read it.
Biker
 
Is it just me, or does anyone else notice how everyone gets all riled up about "statistics" and never bothers looking at the actual numbers?

Set aside that soldiers inherently bitch about wanting to go home.

944 soldiers were interviewed? Out of how many? How do you think they chose those soldiers?

It's no secret that all statistics are is getting numbers to lie for you. If you find the right grouping of people you can eventually find the answers you want.

I guarantee that if you interviewed patients and visitors at a hospital with guys missing limbs and friends, you would get a high percentage of people crying to go home.

I'm not going to join the whole argument over whether we should be in Iraq or not. I have mixed feelings. (one hand- all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, other hand- work on our own faults first before fixing the world?) But stop trusting everyone's statistics.
 
Rumsfeld is not incompetant. He has a plan, and that plan is to transfer as much of the personal budget of DOD into the hands of General Dynamics, Boeing and United Defense Technologies. A little thing like the Global War on Terrorism isn't going to get in his way.

In the 1980s we started putting the force that was gutted by Vietnam and the neglect of the Nixon, Ford and Carter administraions back together. We built the most effective fighting force the world had ever seen. The generals who built that force were all young officers in Vietnam. They hung in there throug the bad years of the 1970s when the all volunteer military was going through it's growing pains.

Then in 1989 the Cold War ended. Bush I began making the plans to dissassemble the force and spend the so called Peace Dividend. The first Gulf War intervened and the drawdown was temorarily postponed. But starting in the last years of the Bush I administration we began the hard process of taking apart the finest force ever. The Clinton adminstration continued with Bush I's plans and generally neglected things like the Carter administration did.

Bush II campaigned on the promise to rebuild the military. "Help is on the way!" he proclaimed at campaign stops on military installations. Yet that help wasn't forthcoming once he got into office. Budget proposals continued to show cuts in the force. Help was coming all right, to the stockholders and CEOs of the American defense industry. But that's ok, tell a soldier you care about him and it goes a long way. He doesn't expect or demand much more then that.

September 11 2001 came, and the nation was plunged into a war of unknown duration against an ill defined enemy. So did the Bush II administration conduct a total mobilization and expand the forces to the size they needed to be to meet the global commitments of this war? No, that would have been going against the master plan. The plan that came from the think tanks, from the students of military history like William Lind and people in the Rand Corporation. Lind and many of these experts who were deciding the future of warfare had never worn a uniform. Not one day did they spend with the straps of a 90 pound rucksack digging into their shoulders while they trudged through the muck to an assault position at 0230 after they'd averaged 3 hours sleep a day for the past 10. These posers who were too good to wear their countries uniform and live a soldier's life decided in all their wisdom and verified with their computer simulations that were were entering the age of network centric warfare. Electrons on a CRT were to replace steel on target and men pulling reserves of strength and stamina from their guts as what would win battles.

Many of our finest warriors died in Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan to prove that netcentric warfare worked. All those electrons and cathode ray tubes let the commanders watch from their tactical operations centers as our nation's finest fought and died on places like Robert's Ridge. Those electrons were unable to put steel on target in support of our warriors. And when it all shook out, nobody had the nerve to stand up and admit it was their decision to leave the artillery at Ft Campbell. Les Aspin at least had the decency to resign after Mogadishu.

Iraq was to be the perfect testing ground for that theory. A fifth rate army from a region that hadn't produced an effective army of it's own since Saladin during the Crusades. The soldiers who knew better were dismissed out of hand. The Chief of Staff of the Army was given the indignity of having his successor named a year before his scheduled retirement because he dared to offer an opposing view on how many troops would be necessary to win the war.

Fourth Generation warfare worked just as the computer models predicted. Of course the Iraqi army didn't put up much of a fight, so perhaps that wasn't a good test of the theory. But nature abhors a vacuum. You can't go in, take over a country (that if left to it's own devices would really be three countries) and then expect everything to be ok once you remove all it's government.

Now in March of 2006 we've got a ground force (Army and Marines) that is seriously overworked. We've broken the reserve components of the Army by mobilizing them for year tours, standing them down and turning around and repeating the process.

The proposed defense budget contains more personnel cuts. We have significantly reduced capability then we had in January of 2001 when Bush II took over. We have more dangerous times ahead. Our enemies grow bolder, it's no coincidence that Iran is ramping up it's nuclear program just now.

Jeff
 
John Zogby, CEO of the polling company, said the poll was funded through Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, which received money for the project from an anonymous, anti-war activist, but neither the activist nor the school had input on the content of the poll.

Yeah, and I'm a real big believer in the tooth færie, too.
 
Rumsfeld is not incompetant. He has a plan, and that plan is to transfer as much of the personal budget of DOD into the hands of General Dynamics, Boeing and United Defense Technologies. A little thing like the Global War on Terrorism isn't going to get in his way.

Bingo, give the man a teddy bear.
 
Jeff, thank you for that post. I'd heard bits and pieces of this before, but that was the best, most concise synopsis of the situation that I have ever read.
 
I'll tell you what my qualifications are. I was right and he was wrong. Simple as that.

During the buildup to war in 2002 I thought long and hard about this. I kept coming back to the Russians in Afghanistan. It became clear to me that while a military victory would be easy, an extended occupation had no possible outcome but to devolve into chaos, perhaps even civil war. Ultimately we would leave in shame and a regime extremely hostile towards the U.S. would take over Iraq's oil fields.

I say I'm qualified to judge Rumsfeld incompetent if for no other reason than that I, a simple transportation journalist, was able to predict the outcome of invading Iraq, while he, with all his experience, could not figure this out.

Of course he was obeying the directives of his masters, Bush and Cheney, but even beyond that, when he began firing generals who were giving him what I thought sensible advice about the required troop levels for the invasion and the need to maintain order and restore services immediately after the invasion, Rumsfeld proved himself criminally incompetent.

The fact is that the secretary of defense should be correct and some doofus in Minnesota should be wrong about such weighty matters. When that situation is reversed, the secretary of defense is truly incompetent.
 
Lemme see here. Zogby Poll. Run by John Zogby who just happens to be the brother of James Zogby. James is President of the Arab American Institute.

There is no doubt about Zogby's credentials but I find the poll's findings tempered by the fact the poll was published in the Stars & Stripes, an official publication of the U.S. military:

"Stars and Stripes is a Department of Defense-authorized daily newspaper distributed overseas for the U.S. military community. Editorially independent of interference from outside its editorial chain-of-command, it provides commercially available U.S. and world news and objective staff-produced stories relevant to the military community in a balanced, fair, and accurate manner. By keeping its audience informed, Stars and Stripes enhances military readiness and better enables U.S. military personnel and their families stationed overseas to exercise their responsibilities of citizenship.
— Revised DoD Directive 5122.11"

http://www.stripes.com/webpages.asp?id=97

If the DOD doubts the credentials of the Zogby poll, then why was the poll published in an official newspaper of the U.S. military?
 
When was the last time the media exercised caution about the results of a poll. When was the last time the media critically analyzed the structure of a poll. When was the last time a poll was conducted for the purpose of gaining meaningful information. Hint: If media sponsors the poll, its purpose is to create news.
When was the last time all polls were published. I will bet you a steak dinner at the waffle house that plenty of polls never get air because the results don't match expectations.

My practice is to ignore polls unless I get to see the entire poll including sample demographics, questions and cross tabs and I sure as hell don't trust any highlight about a poll in the media. I know too much about polling and surveys to believe anything I read in the popular media. And that includes Big Media, Little Media, Print Media, Internet Media and smoke signals. :scrutiny:
 
When was the last time all polls were published. I will bet you a steak dinner at the waffle house that plenty of polls never get air because the results don't match expectations.

My practice is to ignore polls unless I get to see the entire poll including sample demographics, questions and cross tabs and I sure as hell don't trust any highlight about a poll in the media. I know too much about polling and surveys to believe anything I read in the popular media. And that includes Big Media, Little Media, Print Media, Internet Media and smoke signals.

I'd have to see an actual example of a poll that was supressed because it conflicted with media bias before I believed such a thing has ever occurred. The fact is, the media is biased towards earning money, and anything that sounds sensational sells papers, advertising, etc. Whether or not the "media" agrees with the poll is not only irrelevant, it is a non-question, since the media is comprised of tens of thousands of individuals with as many opinions and biases as sphincters. They commission polls that generate flamboyant headlines; whether or not any individuals in the media agree with those headlines means nothing as long as they sell papers, advertising, etc. They wouldn't waste the money to commission a poll and then not publish it because the headline generated was too controversial, especially when that controversy will earn the media outlet even more money.

As for not paying attention to polls, that is sort of like not listening to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Sure polls are raw data and that data can be manipulated in any number of ways, but to me, not paying attention to that data is simply a method of making yourself useless. View polls critically, yes. Examine the biases in the wording of the questions, which is the primary method used to manipulate polls. But at least view them because the more information you have, the more effective you will be. By just listening to those who share your point of view, you relegate yourself to being a pawn, a tool.

Edited to add: Please don't think I'm accusing you of being a tool, Waitone. I've read enough of your stuff to know that you use wide and varied sources of information and view that information critically.
 
Let's see, most soldiers over there think that we should get out.
Most Iraqis think that we should get out, and in fact support attacks on coalition forces.
Most Americans oppose the war and think it was a mistake.

The only people in favor of our war are Bush and an ever decreasing circle of flag-waving neocon neanderthals who think that Saddam was behind 9-11.
 
"I didn't know the Republicans were still using that old mantra "because they would rather fight the enemy overseas than at home.” "

Maybe you need to get out more and hang with a more diverse crowd. ;)

John
 
Don't let my disatisfaction over how the war has been conducted be construed as support for pulling out. I support the war and our objectives 110%. It's the flawed execution that has me steamed.

Jeff
 
This poll shows that the soliders know they could win if given the chance but do to the incomptance of the adminstration, and major screw ups over the last three years in Iraq, the soliders know now they can not win. It is best we get them out now and still have some face left. Iraq is already a lost cause, and is now base of operations for the Terriosts. The sooner we realize that Bush made the "war on terrisom" impossible to win due to the invasion of Iraq, the sooner we can admit defeat and get on with our lives. Let the muslims sort out there own problems.
 
The Buckley article was excellent and thought provoking: admit that the underlying premise of our foriegn policy doesn't work in the Middle East but that it works in other parts of the world, or cling to the fallacy that the underlying premise does work in the Middle East and risk it's utter disintegration worldwide.

If he's right, and I think he is, we're going to have to deal with the fallout from engaging in a failed act of aggression. It's going to make it damned hard to deal with countries like Iran, North Korea, and China.
 
This whole thing [a land war in Asia] was a bad, bad idea...

at least not as bad as going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

haha I love that movie...

anyhow.

the soliders know now they can not win.

Quite the contrary. I think the soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors from the poll have seen such improvement in iraq in the past 3 years that they think they aren't needed anymore.

just my 2 cents
 
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