State Constitutional Carry and its Effect on Reciprocity

[Dog Soldier]

The number of states with Permitless carry are developing so fast it is difficult to keep track. And of course the media reports the lowest numbers they can create. It appears we have 33 now final or pending. But I am no math genius. And I am for the better counts.

http://www.guns.com/2015/03/16/two-more-states-introduce-constitutional-carry-measures/

 

[RX-79G]

There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding CC freedoms. No state has dropped their CCW Permits after adopting Intra-State CC privileges. If you want a carry permit for travel or any other reason they remain available.
This is a privilege granted to the citizens of a particular state. This allows citizens to possess a handgun without unnecessary arrest during traffic stops etc.

Except that VT never had a permit, and CC states could certainly do away with the expense of keeping their own permits going.

CC and reciprocity are not especially compatible. No state that requires a license of its own citizens can give citizens of other states more rights than its own.

 

[danez71]

The number of states with Permitless carry are developing so fast it is difficult to keep track. And of course the media reports the lowest numbers they can create. It appears we have 33 now final or pending. But I am no math genius. And I am for the better counts.

http://www.guns.com/2015/03/16/two-more-states-introduce-constitutional-carry-measures/

Did you read the link you provided?

It doesn't say anything about 33 states.

It says:

The measures, seen in the Nevada Senate and Missouri House respectively, are in the early stages of the legislative process but should they succeed, could allow each state to become the six and seventh to adopt constitutional carry.

It's also more than a year old.


Can you cite anything that resembles your claim of 33 states?

 

[Dog Soldier]

Yes,Yes, you have my permission to post and challenge this. We are and have been working in the various states for approvals. I stated the News Media has as you are posting down playing our successes. Stay tuned we will surprise you. I hope. Note the link and the media, we had 21 states working in the past year. We need gun owners to support this cause. A positive approach attracts more sponsors.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/03/02/support-permitless-constitutional-carry-handguns-surges/

 

[RX-79G]

Yes,Yes, you have my permission to post and challenge this. We are and have been working in the various states for approvals. I stated the News Media has as you are posting down playing our successes. Stay tuned we will surprise you. I hope.

I'm not surprised by chickens, I just don't call eggs "chickens".

 

[danez71]

Indiana, a VERY gun and gun-owner friendly state, is considering Constitutional Carry. I believe we are doing it because we think it's the right thing to do and we also don't have a great deal of money to spend on the license program.

My question is this: If we get Constitutional and no longer need (or are issued) "License to Carry a Handgun" as we call it here, how will my reciprocity with my neighboring states be affected?

Currently I am sort of hemmed in, with no reciprocity in either Ohio or Illinois. However, I have said I am good North and South from border to border with reciprocity in Michigan, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida.

Will we loose that?

PS. For the record I am for Constitutional Carry at the national level. Barring that, I support nationwide reciprocity. I also would be perfectly willing, for the sake of the current reciprocity scheme, to see Indiana add a few more requirements for the License in order to pick up more states...namely Ohio and WV, with whom we do not today have reciprocity.

Back to the original question....


It really has to do with how your surrounding state laws are written.

If Indiana stopped printing permits, which as Sam pointed out none of the others stopped, the other states laws would have to be written to allow visitors from 'no permit offered because it's not needed' states to carry.

There's were your answer is. And it's doubtful they are currently written that way.

However, Indiana probably won't stop printing them.

When I lived in AZ, I continued to renew my permit because it did offer some benefits.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Yes,Yes, you have my permission to post and challenge this.....

Not he, nor anyone else, requires your permission to post and to challenge your claims.

It's apparent that your information is not accurate regarding the number of States in which someone may lawfully carry a gun concealed without a permit of some type issued by the State. And while legislation might be under consideration in a number of additional States to thus allow permitless concealed carry, those laws have not yet been enacted. Until those laws become effective, if they ever actually do, those States may not properly be counted as constitutional carry States.

Please don't continue to post specious information. In future you should provide evidence to support your assertions.

With regard to the actually number of constitutional carry jurisdictions, I'm inclined to accept the information Sam posted in post 24. He has over the years established his credibility.

 

[CapnMac]

My question is this: If we get Constitutional and no longer need (or are issued) "License to Carry a Handgun" as we call it here, how will my reciprocity with my neighboring states be affected?

As a matter of practicality the various states will likely keep issuing LTC/CCW to residents for the sole purpose of reciprocity purposes in other states. At least until some sort of universal reciprocity is enacted.

 

[CapnMac]

In an interesting development, bills have be pre-filed in the Texas Legislature to make the LTC a no-cost permit. There are rumors that CC will also be introduced. Both of those are welcom. Texas presently has one of the most expensive LTC ($140 with $70 renewals). Functionally Texas also has CC for all intents and purposes, anyway--the gray areas being the only reason we need it codified into law.

Now, the State Legislature wants to keep the LTC, if only as a mechanism for the associated perks of skipping NICS.

How that will dovetail with the neighboring states will have to worked out when it happens.

 

[Sam1911]

Couldn't the Feds say 'In order to continue receiving Fed funds for crime/police, the state must have an agreement to honor all other states CC permit and all states must go shall issue (no 'good cause' requirement)'?

Probably, if there are the votes to do such a thing. And, of course, states are then free to say, "No WAY! Keep your money. We aren't doing it." (As some have done with federal highway funds.) And which and whether would do what, no way to say.

 

[Cannibul]

Yes,Yes, you have my permission to post and challenge this. We are and have been working in the various states for approvals. I stated the News Media has as you are posting down playing our successes. Stay tuned we will surprise you. I hope. Note the link and the media, we had 21 states working in the past year. We need gun owners to support this cause. A positive approach attracts more sponsors.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/03/02/support-permitless-constitutional-carry-handguns-surges/

A bill in the hopper is barely worth the paper it's printed on. Until it gets voted on it's nothing more than unicorn farts.

 

[gsbuickman]

Hiya Guys . Here locally the great state of Idaho has always been an open carry state with reciprocity to a number of other states for ccw permit holders. After 6 years of putting constitutional carry legislation forward, we finally got a bill passed and signed into law becoming a constitutional carry state, with credit going to the Second Amendment Alliance of Idaho and Larry Pratt of the GOA, for coming out and standing with us a at our last big rally before the votes were cast.

I also have to say, shame on the NRA for coming to Boise and refusing to stand with and/or support us at our rally even though they were only 2 blocks away. It turns out they were busy cutting a backroom deal with the "IIdaho"secret gun committee" with a constitutional carry bill for the state of Idaho that they drafted using the language that they essentially stole from the bill we already had written up, approved by the Idaho Sheriff's Association and put forward in an attempt to take credit for the last 6 years of our efforts and for Idaho becoming a constitutional carry state for them damn selves, shame on you...

Before we were a constitutional carry state we were an open carry state but we could legally carry concealed anywhere in Idaho outside of city limits. In City Limits we could legally open carry but if we happen to throw a jacket on because it was a little cool or wet outside or something, all of a sudden we were breaking the law which seemed rather redundant . Now we can carry any damn way we please in or out of city limits with the usual exceptions like Federal buildings courthouses etc. Our neighboring state Wyoming is also a constitutional carry state and I think we might have reciprocity with them but I'm not positive on that. As far as traveling to other states goes, you still need to know what the other states laws are and abide by them unless you have a permit and we have reciprocity with them.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... Our neighboring state Wyoming is also a constitutional carry state and I think we might have reciprocity with them but I'm not positive on that. ...

It's my understanding the Wyoming is constitutional carry only for Wyoming residents. So visitors from other States must have a recognized state issued carry permit to lawfully carry a concealed gun in Wyoming.

 

[RX-79G]

It's my understanding the Wyoming is constitutional carry only for Wyoming residents. So visitors from other States must have a recognized state issued carry permit to lawfully carry a concealed gun in Wyoming.

Its funny to call such a law "constitutional". Not disagreeing or condemning, it just sounds odd that it sounds like a state could have constitution that delineates "rights" in an unequal way.

The law should probably be referred to differently.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Its funny to call such a law "constitutional". Not disagreeing or condemning, it just sounds odd that it sounds like a state could have constitution that delineates "rights" in an unequal way.

The law should probably be referred to differently.

It's not going to be. The term of art, "constitutional carry", has by now been so deeply entrenched that the likelihood of it changing is pretty much nil. So whether it's the best way to describe lawful concealed carry without a permit is a moot point.

Furthermore, the very favorable gun laws in Vermont, including the fact that no permit is required to carry a gun openly or concealed are the result of a 1903 decision of the Vermont Supreme Court (State v. Rosenthal, 75 Vt. 295, 55 A. 610 (1903)) applying the RKBA provisions of the Vermont Constitution. So in Vermont, it literally is "constitutional carry."

 

[w129]

Incorrect. Ohio recognizes all states' licenses/permits. I'm not sure what Ohio does if the licensee were under 21 years old (if there are states that issue to 18-21 yrs).

Last I heard OH and PA did not recipricate, because PA does not require any training, has this changed?

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, Ohio honors all other permits and licenses. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/ohio.pdf

 

[JohnBiltz]

Its only true Constituitional carry if the state's Constitution has been altered to allow this or was already like this. This generally also requires a vote of the citizens, I remember when Arizona did this. The term has been appropriated to mean you don't need a license to legally carry but its not strictly speaking correct. Altering the constitution of the state takes it out of the state legislature's hands.

 

[RX-79G]

Its only true Constituitional carry if the state's Constitution has been altered to allow this or was already like this. This generally also requires a vote of the citizens, I remember when Arizona did this. The term has been appropriated to mean you don't need a license to legally carry but its not strictly speaking correct. Altering the constitution of the state takes it out of the state legislature's hands.

Vermont's constitution doesn't say anything about carry. Another state that wanted to emulate that could simply repeal any concealed carry prohibitions in the state legal code and then have the attorney general issue a ruling that clarifies the lack of any carry law as defacto right to carry concealed, or pass a law that says the same.

 

[Sam1911]

Its only true Constituitional carry if the state's Constitution has been altered to allow this or was already like this. This generally also requires a vote of the citizens, I remember when Arizona did this. The term has been appropriated to mean you don't need a license to legally carry but its not strictly speaking correct. Altering the constitution of the state takes it out of the state legislature's hands.

Interesting take on that. I hadn't heard that before. I'd always figured that "Constitutional" carry sprang from the idea that the US Constitution's bill of rights included the "...and bear arms..." phrase and thus that should be enough of a permission to carry a firearm that any citizen would need.

Hence the hackneyed old slogan "The 2nd Amendment is my carry permit."

 

[Fiv3r]

As a resident of IN with friends in MI and in-laws in KY, I plan on keeping my permit active as long as they keep printing them.

 

[HoosierQ]

Incorrect. Ohio recognizes all states' licenses/permits. I'm not sure what Ohio does if the licensee were under 21 years old (if there are states that issue to 18-21 yrs).

Yes. I see that. When last I looked I was not permitted in Ohio and WV. Good news. Thank you!!!

 

[HoosierQ]

So, clearly, the actual implications of this are poorly understood. However, as long as I can choose to get a permit (and my state allows me to choose) I feel quite confident in my reciprocity.

 

[CoalTrain49]

No state is required to honor any other state's drivers license, though most do.
No state is required to honor any other state's license to practice law or medicine, or work as an engineer (etc.), and most do not.

Exactly.

This is a huge constitutional states rights issue. Probably the single most important hurdle for national reciprocity. I don't believe there is any desire in congress or the supreme court deal with it. I could be wrong however. The path to reciprocity is thru the states. There is no benefit to a permit system, only additional costs to taxpayers. When states analyse the cost/benefit they dump the permit system. Licenses are required to protect the public, they generally aren't there to raise revenue for the state and don't. A permit to carry protects no one. There is plenty of evidence to support that. Probably why there is no federal permit. They couldn't enforce it and they won't be able to enforce a nat'l reciprocity law.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Hmmm, trying to think what would happen if a state with major interstates running through it decided it would not honor other states drivers licenses. I don't think it would be pretty. I think interstate commerce laws would pound the state into pulp.