Sticker shock! Powder price

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IMR was originally and has always been a large supplier of powder for the military. IMR stands for Improved Military Rifle!

Just about every powder manufacturer has bulk grade powders and cannister grade powder. The cannister is made to sell at retail and is much, much more consistant than bulk grade. The bulk grade is sold to ammunition manufacturers, including military contractors, and each lot is tested and loads adjusted because of the amount of variation lot to lot.
 
Why are you getting so picky about this thread? You seem to be nit-picking and mincing words. And there's no reason to talk down to me and tell me what IMR stands for.

Have fun with this thread because I'm done here. Life is too short to play games with anyone... :rolleyes:
 
Why are you getting so picky about this thread? You seem to be nit-picking and mincing words.
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jcwit posted that he was buying non-surplus powder for $10-$12.50/lb. When asked where, he posts a crypic answer referencing surplus powders. When I ask about the descrepency, all I get an a smart-alec answer about using Google. I don't see calling surplus powders non-surplus as a nit-picky issue.

And there's no reason to talk down to me and tell me what IMR stands for.
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You specifically said that IMR powders weren't bulk surplus, when bulk military powders is what they built their business on. They even put it in their name. I told you what IMR stands for because it was directly relevent to your post.
 
jcwit posted that he was buying non-surplus powder for $10-$12.50/lb. When asked where, he posts a crypic answer referencing surplus powders. When I ask about the descrepency, all I get an a smart-alec answer about using Google. I don't see calling surplus powders non-surplus as a nit-picky issue.
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The powders I referred you to are "NEW", they may be "New Surplus" but they are new. This logic borders on what is surplus, I suppose surplus could be any product that the manufacturer needs to sell so it would be profitable to manufactur more product. Anyway in the end they are "NEW" you now know where to purchase them if you wish, or not if you so desire.

As far as what you claim is a smart alec answer, I gave you the names and suggested you google them yourself, just what is the problem with that, google has answers for most any question. Were you expecting me to completely lead you there, if so why?
 
Of course I wasn't expecting you to completely lead me there, but there is a big difference between bulk grade surplus powders and cannister grade retail powders. The powders you claimed weren't surplus, in fact are bulk grade surplus. I was trying to figure out what I was missing and got a completely useless answer.
 
What makes you think the 700X Russian and Russian 4895 is a bulk grade surplus powder?

What are you reading into the sellers description that he does not list?
 
So what you're implying is that ammo manufactures use a completely different powder than what is available to the reloader in 1 lb. bottles.

Why do I find that hard to accept?

Why are you getting so picky about this thread? You seem to be nit-picking and mincing words. And there's no reason to talk down to me and tell me what IMR stands for.
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Yes, I believe ArchAngelCD nailed it. Nit picking. We have an option for this.
 
Here in S/E MI our local gun shop is approx. $26 for any one # of powder.
$30 for 1000 cci 500 primers.
They last me a long time as we shoot .380 & 9MM most of the time.
 
jcwit said:
So what you're implying is that ammo manufactures use a completely different powder than what is available to the reloader in 1 lb. bottles.

Why do I find that hard to accept?
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I don't know why you find it hard to accept, especially since it is an absolute and undisputed fact. If you don't believe me then all you need to do is read the section on gunpowder that is at the front of virtually every reputable reloading manual that has been published in the last 30+ years. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your tone over your last few posts makes me think you're talking down to us without having all the facts.

There's a reason for the term "canister grade" in reference to smokeless powders. Google it or read your favorite reloading manual to understand why, or just read post #51 in this thread. There's a reason why canister grade powder is much more expensive than bulk grade. Mind you I'm not saying that newly manufactured bulk powders can't be a screaming deal and be very accurate, but I am saying that there's absolutely no guarantee that the burn rate between any two jugs produced at different times will be more than just loosely similar. WC 852 is a popular surplus powder that is often referenced as being from a 'fast lot' or from a 'slow lot'. Use the fast lot with data developed for the 'slow' one and you'll be lucky if you don't have serious overpressure problems. Canister grade powder doesn't come in 'fast' or 'slow' lots.

I stand by my assertion that canister grade powders are not available at $10 per pound from any reputable supplier I have found, but I would happily be proven wrong if someone woud share their source.
 
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So what you're implying is that ammo manufactures use a completely different powder than what is available to the reloader in 1 lb. bottles.

Why do I find that hard to accept?
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I just want to highlight this for anyone reading this. Keep this statement in mind when reading any of jcwit's posts in this thread. Check this against ANY available source you have for reloading data, and you'll see the problem with his entire argument. Maybe if he wasn't so rude in making his (false) points, this thread wouldn't have gotten so out of hand, but I could have handled it better as well. I apologize to the OP for my part in taking this thread so far.

Of course, jcwit won't be reading this post as he already informed me I'm on his ignore list.
 
Nothing like a good old internet whizzing contest. :uhoh:
 
It seems I might have possibly wrong regarding the canister grade versus bulk grade. However in going back to the site I referred to there is still nothing to claim for sure that the 700X Russian or the Russian 4895 is bulk grade, or that it is surplus other than "NEW" surplus, whatever that means

As reloaders we all know of the importance of working up a new load when using a new bottle of powder if not from the same lot numbers, seems to be the same whether using the supposedly "higher quality?" canister grade or the "lower grade?" "cheaper" bulk powders. So whats the big deal which is used, in both cases new loads are to be worked up.

Furthermore, more than 1 powder supplier started out as repackaging surplus "again whatever that means" military powders.

For general use I'll pick the $10.00 and $12.50 a lb. powders available and use the savings to further enjoy my hobby, & take the wife out to a steak dinner.

So tell me whats the problem using these socalled bulk/surplus powders?
 
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So tell me whats the problem using these socalled bulk/surplus powders?
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There is no problem with using them. And there's probably not an actual difference in quality.

The problem is that bulk surplus powers are cheaper for a reason, and that reason is lot to lot consistency. I have canister IMR 4831 powder in my stash from probably 10 different lots and I don't test, adjust or even think about the difference between lots when I finish an old can and start a new one. For that matter I don't rework my loads with ANY canister powder in ANY cartridge when I get a new bottle. I'm not loading anything to the ragged edge, and that lot to lot consistency is why canister grade is 'better'.

I've done this (against the advice of every powder maker and loading manual in the world) for 30 years now with not even a tiny little problem as a result. Do that with 'WCC 8XX' from the surplus store and you just might lose your hand and your eyesight.

The bulk surplus powders can be top notch performers, especially if new production and not from old pulldown rounds, but you had better be extremely cautious with using it. I bought a big jug of powder a few years ago from a gun store near Owensboro. Written on the jug in Sharpie are the words "use 4831 data". It was cheaper than 4831. Is it 4831? Which 4831 data should I use, Hodgdon or IMR? Is the jug sitting behind it on the shelf from the same lot, or is it entirely different stuff? I don't know...and that's why it's much less expensive.

And all this explains why I wanted to know where you were getting canister grade powder from that that price. I don't have a problem finding the other stuff: there's a guy selling it in 8lb jugs at practically every gun show I've attended over the last three years. But he isn't selling ANY pistol powders for that price.
 
Ok, back to the OT!

One LGS that actually carried a decent supply is always a little higher than I think he ought to be.

I wanted to try out IMR 8208 XBR And he had it in stock for 32.61(with tax) for one pound! This is why the only thing I buy from him is a pond to try out now and then. I got online and when you add hazmat, regular shipping and the price of a 8 lb keg it was around $21 per pound. If I add primers and other powders I'm simply way better off.

It's simple business, lower the price a bit and I would not mind paying a little more perp pound.

He is the type of gun store that refuses making $25 for simply filling out the transfer paperwork for gun sales when 2 other local will. Pretty stupid to me since he could make $25 for about 5-10 min of work but refuses out of greed. ESP when the guys down the road will. Anyhow, I guess that is a whole other topic!
 
However in going back to the site I referred to there is still nothing to claim for sure that the 700X Russian or the Russian 4895 is bulk grade, or that it is surplus other than "NEW" surplus, whatever that means
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I decided to address this in a separate post so I didn't create such a wall of text. I'm pretty confident those aren't canister grade powders just because they don't have their own product names. Plus, I'm not aware there even ARE any Russian companies selling canister grade propellants. I will admit this is purely conjecture on my part but I doubt you can walk into a gun store in Moscow and pick up a .5kg can with "Russian 700X" printed on it with a fancy label.

I came up with a really dumb analogy: when you buy Coca Cola you pay more than for the generic soda, but you can be assured that every bottle tastes exactly like the Coke you bought 10 years ago. If you save money and buy the house brand generic cola then it might taste different than it did just last year. Nobody's saying it can't be the most delicious soda you have ever tasted, but they are saying you can't count on the next bottle tasting the same.

And nobody sells generic Fresca (pistol powder) so if you drink a lot of Fresca you have to pay full price.
 
Elkins45, your reloading sounds exactly like mine, looks as if we do every thing the same way.

I will say my experience with gibrass AKA Jeff Bartlett, the jugs have always made note of lot numbers. Which is why when using his powders I do go to the trouble of working up new loads sometimes, however many times my loads are in the mid to low range and I don't bother. Has something to do with Arthur in the hands wrists and shoulder.

The 700X Russian is of course a pistol powder if you like/can use a flake powder. Some folks do not like flake powders because of the metering problem.
 
I came up with a really dumb analogy: when you buy Coca Cola you pay more than for the generic soda, but you can be assured that every bottle tastes exactly like the Coke you bought 10 years ago. If you save money and buy the house brand generic cola then it might taste different than it did just last year. Nobody's saying it can't be the most delicious soda you have ever tasted, but they are saying you can't count on the next bottle tasting the same.
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I understand where you're coming from or going "as the case may be" here. However I don't buy into it completely, I purchase store brand and use generic meds all the time with no problems. Just call me cheap, may partially come from being a procurement officer for at the time largest RV manufacturer in the U.S., for 20 years.
 
So tell me whats the problem using these socalled bulk/surplus powders?
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I don't see anything wrong with it, if it states "compare to ________ and load following ________'s data", and then I get a data sheet for that powder(which I see some of those sites you mentioned do supply), I would do it with no qualms.

My only problem is I don't have use for that much powder. :(

Even different lots of off the shelf canister grade powder can vary enough that one might have to change the load or adjust the volume on the measure. It isn't unheard of, anyway.
 
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jcwit said:
I understand where you're coming from or going "as the case may be" here. However I don't buy into it completely, I purchase store brand and use generic meds all the time with no problems.
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Almost everybody uses generic meds unless there isn't a generic equivalent, at least if their insurance company (or their own wallet) has any say in the matter. That's not a good comparison though, because there's a USP standard for those medicines. Lisinopril, or toporol or whatever has to be the same molecule regardless of who makes it. That's not the case with generic cola, or crackers...or smokeless powder.

About the Russian 700X--one powder does not a wide selection make. I want some H-110 equivalent, 2400 equivalent, Unique equivalent, Power Pistol equivalent...
 
You didn't ask for a selection.
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Doesn't everybody want variety? :)

It would be nice if there were a whole range of pistol powders available at surplus rifle powders, but that's highly unlikely because the military doesn't load all that much pistol ammo as compared to rifle. Talking about this does make me wonder what powder we use for all that 9mm ammo we load and why I never see US government surplus pistol powders like I do for rifles?

I have a jug of Promo that I've been using occasionally for cast bullet loads in 308 using Red Dot data, and I've also used it for some low power pistol rounds. It is very economical for a canister powder and seems to be a good performer, but I believe it's mostly used as a shotgun powder. It's a bit limited in that it's not suitable for full power 357 or 44 magnum loads because it burns too fast. Still, it's the best bargain in pistol powders available today. I wish all the new powers cost so little.

There's a powder from Hodgdon I believe that's called Titewad. i caught an 8lb jug of the stuff on clearance at a LGS and picked it up for about $75. I didn't know anything about it other than it was cheap and when I got home and looked it up I discvered it's even faster burning than Bullseye! That's why it's called Titewad--you can't use very much because it's so fast burning. It's mainly for 12 gauge target loads and they don't even publish pistol data for it. I'm not sure I'll ever get around to trying it in handgun loads and I'm not a shotgun reloader. I'm hoping I can trade the sealed jug for some other powder sometime.

So I guess the idea you and I have come to agree on is that there are still some good bargains to be had on smokeless powder, but only if your needs happen to coincide with the powders that are available at that given time.

It seems like nowadays there's always some sort of 50 BMG powder available.
 
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