Stop the bleeding
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I use them to keep my cookies fresh. A fresh-baked plate o' cookies is always handy in case you need to bribe someone to give you first aid. ; )
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bogie
Member
IMHO, wrong on tourniquets...
Get the sucker on, get stuff under control, then loosen it. Just takes a minute or two. You don't always have a fast medevac.
It's a LOT easier to deal with something when the victim isn't freaking over blood squirting all over the place, and you've got a relatively clean, and non-squirty, area to work with... T's are fast to implement, and also fast to remove.
My gun club has a pretty good trauma kit in a wire-locked cabinet next to the phone. GPS coordinates are on the phone. We've got everything from quickclot through big field dressings. Maybe even some duct tape. And it hasn't been used...
Note to self: remind el-presidente that it is time for some first aid courses.
Get the sucker on, get stuff under control, then loosen it. Just takes a minute or two. You don't always have a fast medevac.
It's a LOT easier to deal with something when the victim isn't freaking over blood squirting all over the place, and you've got a relatively clean, and non-squirty, area to work with... T's are fast to implement, and also fast to remove.
My gun club has a pretty good trauma kit in a wire-locked cabinet next to the phone. GPS coordinates are on the phone. We've got everything from quickclot through big field dressings. Maybe even some duct tape. And it hasn't been used...
Note to self: remind el-presidente that it is time for some first aid courses.
rainbowbob
Member
This may be the dumbest question in this thread but...I'm a revolver guy.
Do semi-autos regularly - or even irregularly - discharge when dropped on the floor with a round in the chamber?
Do semi-autos regularly - or even irregularly - discharge when dropped on the floor with a round in the chamber?
No one is probably gonna see this but some Marines apparently do not have a very high opinion of the quickclot:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000458.html
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000458.html
Riss
Member
Had a local guy near here have an AD whilst out shopping. Struck his femoral artery. Dead on the spot. Poor guy bled out before ambulance could travel 1 mile to get to him. Quick Clot or other clotting agent and an Israeli bandage is as good as it gets. Guy would have lived, maybe, had it been tied off with a tourniquet or with some quick clot. BUT, most likely he would have lost the leg. Beats the alternative though.
rainbowbob
Member
Ok...does that mean most (all?) semis that have a safety are "drop safe"...and those that don't - arent'?
No not all semis whether they have (or do not have) a safety are drop safe.
Quality auto pistols--relatively speaking of course--such as Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, etc. will all be "drop safe". Even so, I do not recommend testing this for the heck of it of course.
As firearm enthusiasts likely know better than most, man made implements are prone to failure.
And, yes any semi without a "drop safe" safety design cannot be (relatively speaking of course) safely dropped. Lest you were to drop it into molasses or something.
I could be misunderstanding your question though.
In my opinion you will (generally) only run into auto pistols that are not drop safe that are low quality (cheap/POS as in $200 or less)--This isn't the rule, but again, this is only generally speaking.
I'm sure others might have different opinions than mine. And, whenever I give an opinion I recommend no one take it as gospel and continue to further research on their own in case I inadvertently dispense incorrect information. But that's stating the obvious.
Quality auto pistols--relatively speaking of course--such as Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, etc. will all be "drop safe". Even so, I do not recommend testing this for the heck of it of course.
As firearm enthusiasts likely know better than most, man made implements are prone to failure.And, yes any semi without a "drop safe" safety design cannot be (relatively speaking of course) safely dropped. Lest you were to drop it into molasses or something.
I could be misunderstanding your question though.
In my opinion you will (generally) only run into auto pistols that are not drop safe that are low quality (cheap/POS as in $200 or less)--This isn't the rule, but again, this is only generally speaking.
I'm sure others might have different opinions than mine. And, whenever I give an opinion I recommend no one take it as gospel and continue to further research on their own in case I inadvertently dispense incorrect information. But that's stating the obvious.
19-3Ben
Sucking chest wounds. If you do not close the wound with an airtight bandage air can and will enter the thoracic cavity this will result in a collapsed lung, this is known as a bad thing. You also want to leave the bottom corner open as this will act as a flapper valve and keep air from a punctured lung from becoming trapped in the thoracic cavity causing a collapsed lung. This valve will open with exhalation and close with inhalation. Plastic wrap and or aluminum foil work very well for this. Remember folks the ideal is air goes in and out and blood goes round and round. ANY deviation of the aforementioned is considered a BAD thing and needs to be corrected pronto. That was the opening line for paramedic class 15 or so years ago, If you think about it that is all medicine is, trying to keep the air and blood doing what it is supposed to.
BTW Richard Dean Anderson and the character he played were both anti gun. I am not.
Len
Sucking chest wounds. If you do not close the wound with an airtight bandage air can and will enter the thoracic cavity this will result in a collapsed lung, this is known as a bad thing. You also want to leave the bottom corner open as this will act as a flapper valve and keep air from a punctured lung from becoming trapped in the thoracic cavity causing a collapsed lung. This valve will open with exhalation and close with inhalation. Plastic wrap and or aluminum foil work very well for this. Remember folks the ideal is air goes in and out and blood goes round and round. ANY deviation of the aforementioned is considered a BAD thing and needs to be corrected pronto. That was the opening line for paramedic class 15 or so years ago, If you think about it that is all medicine is, trying to keep the air and blood doing what it is supposed to.
BTW Richard Dean Anderson and the character he played were both anti gun. I am not.
Len
ashtxsniper
Member
Another good item to go in your kit with the quick clot is an Israeli Bandage................. Edit to add:crap Riss beat me to it
rainbowbob
Member
You did not misunderstand my question and I appreciate the info. Even though it may seem like a dumb question for you auto guys - I actually think it is the most important question on this thread because that is what caused the problem in the OP's story.
Anyone else have a definitive answer on this? As I said I am a revolver guy with very little auto experrience. I have always told my squeemish family members that my j-frame can't go off if I drop it. I want to be able to say the same for autos. It sounds like the answer is "maybe" and has to do with the quality and design of the auto in question.
Believe me, if there is ever a story in the news about an AD from a dropped gun - I'll be hearing ALL about it. And I'll need answers.
un_lucky
Member
what are you baseing this on?
SMLE
Member
tourniquets...
The idea that placing a tourniquet automatically means loosing the limb is just not true. They use tourniquets in surgery routinely and have found that they can remain in place for >4 hours. Except in extreme wilderness situations, you can get a patient to an appropriate medical facility in a lot less that 4 hours.
The current Pre-Hospital Life Support (PHTLS) teaching on tourniquets is that if Direct pressure does not work, go directly to a tourniquet and leave it there until the casualty reaches the trauma room/surgeon. This change is based in military experience in Iraq & Afghanistan.
Personally, I haven't yet had to deal with bleeding that pressure wouldn't stop, but I have added a military tourniquet to my personal SHTF bag.
The idea that placing a tourniquet automatically means loosing the limb is just not true. They use tourniquets in surgery routinely and have found that they can remain in place for >4 hours. Except in extreme wilderness situations, you can get a patient to an appropriate medical facility in a lot less that 4 hours.
The current Pre-Hospital Life Support (PHTLS) teaching on tourniquets is that if Direct pressure does not work, go directly to a tourniquet and leave it there until the casualty reaches the trauma room/surgeon. This change is based in military experience in Iraq & Afghanistan.
Personally, I haven't yet had to deal with bleeding that pressure wouldn't stop, but I have added a military tourniquet to my personal SHTF bag.
Fish828
Member
when i mentioned tourniquets, i meant it as an absolute last resorter, though i failed to mention that. what i mean to say was if you were in a situation where help was a ways away and a main artery was hit and there is a very good chance that the injured person could bleed to death. please, everyone, do not think that i meant that one should use a tourniquet in any other situation.
The Army taught for years that tourniquets were an absolute and extreme last resort , but trained you how to construct field expedient ones (stick/cravat, belt, etc.). We were also taught and tested on proper "wrapping and tucking" of the tied cloth tails on battle dressings (to provide neat seals over wound which would prevent infection from debris & dirt).
It was all BS. An inordinate amount of time was spent screwing around worrying about possibilities which would only come into play if the patient managed to survive evacuation to a treatment facility. It was like worrying about water damage to property while fighting a house fire. Duh...put out the fire first...then deal with water.
Todays Soldiers are ALL issued and required to train with purpose built tourniquets and modernized pressure dressings, all of which can be applied one handed (with practice).
Worrys about future infections, amputations, torniquet complications, etc. have become obsolete in a battlefield trauma situation. Tourniquets are seeing daily use in Iraq/Afghanistan, applied by non-medical personnel and with good results. The previously maligned tourniquet has experienced a renaissance; it now routinely saves lives on the battlefield.
You can't develop an infection or get a surgical amputation if you are dead from having bled out 45 minutes before arriving at the ER or Surgical Unit.
ABCs. Air goes in and out. Blood goes round and round. Anything else is very bad.
It was all BS. An inordinate amount of time was spent screwing around worrying about possibilities which would only come into play if the patient managed to survive evacuation to a treatment facility. It was like worrying about water damage to property while fighting a house fire. Duh...put out the fire first...then deal with water.
Todays Soldiers are ALL issued and required to train with purpose built tourniquets and modernized pressure dressings, all of which can be applied one handed (with practice).
Worrys about future infections, amputations, torniquet complications, etc. have become obsolete in a battlefield trauma situation. Tourniquets are seeing daily use in Iraq/Afghanistan, applied by non-medical personnel and with good results. The previously maligned tourniquet has experienced a renaissance; it now routinely saves lives on the battlefield.
You can't develop an infection or get a surgical amputation if you are dead from having bled out 45 minutes before arriving at the ER or Surgical Unit.
ABCs. Air goes in and out. Blood goes round and round. Anything else is very bad.
un_lucky
Member
I'm not trying to start a fight, but I'm still not sold on the tourniquet. In the spring of 2005 I responded to a farm accident were a large man had been stabbed through the right thigh with the grapple forks on a loader tractor. Before we got to the site his brother had pulled out the fork (bad idea) and tried to use his belt as a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. The mans thigh was very large and muscular and as tight as they pulled the belt they could not stop the bleeding. We stopped the bleeding with pressure points and clotting agent(and lack of volume). The man died in route to the hospital. I have to think that a simple "c-grip to the femeral artery may have been more effective.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Pretty much any modern .45 wouldn't have gone off if dropped on the floor, due to redundant passive safeties.
Most modern semiautos and most modern revolvers are completely drop-safe, unless you grab for it and accidentally pull the trigger or something.
Older revolvers without a transfer bar are not drop-safe if they fall on the hammer, and some older-design semiautos are not drop-safe if the safety is off (the Walther PPK and clones, e.g. Bersa .380's, come to mind--the instructions explicitly say to leave the safety ON if the gun is not firmly in your hand).
Glocks, 3rd-generation and newer Smith & Wessons, Ruger centerfires, etc. are all drop safe regardless of whether the safety is on or off (if a manual safety is present).
Librarian
Member
Notice the article is from June 2003.
Apparently QC is another tool in the toolbox; Z-Medica appears to recommend a pressure bandage on top of the treated wound, which makes sense to me.
Dksimon
Member
what is an israeli bandage?
Everybody is awfully confident about not needing a tourniquet. I have had a good bit of first aid training over 14 years of military service and I keep a tourniquet handy. I need to order Quik clot and some chest seals too. The folks posting that tourniquets are not needed are civilian EMTs, who have access to medical back-up on their ambulance or where it is going.
I live 60 miles of mountain road from a hospital. I am around guns, hunters, and heavy equipment. Folks here have a better chance of survival, or at least golden hour care if they are messed up enough to need a helicopter ride. Volunteer EMS can be up to 1 hour response. Cell phones don't work in the majority of the county to call for help. You might not be close to a landline. If I have an arterial bleed that I can't immediately control I want Quikclot or a tourniquet fast. I'll worry about the limb later. My biggest fear of my own injury is being to out of it to self aid and get a tourniquet on myself, apply quik clot, or a compression dressing.
I live 60 miles of mountain road from a hospital. I am around guns, hunters, and heavy equipment. Folks here have a better chance of survival, or at least golden hour care if they are messed up enough to need a helicopter ride. Volunteer EMS can be up to 1 hour response. Cell phones don't work in the majority of the county to call for help. You might not be close to a landline. If I have an arterial bleed that I can't immediately control I want Quikclot or a tourniquet fast. I'll worry about the limb later. My biggest fear of my own injury is being to out of it to self aid and get a tourniquet on myself, apply quik clot, or a compression dressing.
bogie
Member
No heavy training - just a lot of dealing with people, reading, etc... Grew up on a farm too...
One thing to remember is that a LOT of folks can quickly become unraveled... IMHO, the primary objective is to prevent panic and shock. If you can control the mental component of shock, you can handle the physical components. Lots of folks die because they think they are gonna die. Lots of other folks live, after worse stuff, because they don't think they're gonna die.
In addition, pressure bandages, clotting, etc., tend to "start to work" better if blood isn't actively flowing. A temporary tourniquet won't cause any harm, other than bruising. Ever had your leg go to sleep? Or have your ol' lady decide to nap on your arm? Same basic thing...
If you have someone get stuck with something, and it's still in them, that something has now become known by a different name: The Plug. Do NOT pull the plug. Cut it off if it is attached to something, and it can go for an ambulance ride too. This is what God made bolt cutters, hacksaws, compressors and cutoff wheels for.
If you have blood spurting, and a conscious patient, you have a reason for them to maybe panic. No blood spurting means less panic. Stop the bleeding, then assess the situation, and if you can clean/clamp or deal with a pressure bandage, then go for it. By now, you should have the chopper on the way... 15 minutes with a tourniquet isn't going to cause any problems. 15 minutes of spurting and flailing... Well, maybe 5-10 minutes...
If you've got longer to to, and get nervous about the tourniquet, you can loosen it every so often. Just try to not let the patient drain out with it loosened.
One thing to remember is that a LOT of folks can quickly become unraveled... IMHO, the primary objective is to prevent panic and shock. If you can control the mental component of shock, you can handle the physical components. Lots of folks die because they think they are gonna die. Lots of other folks live, after worse stuff, because they don't think they're gonna die.
In addition, pressure bandages, clotting, etc., tend to "start to work" better if blood isn't actively flowing. A temporary tourniquet won't cause any harm, other than bruising. Ever had your leg go to sleep? Or have your ol' lady decide to nap on your arm? Same basic thing...
If you have someone get stuck with something, and it's still in them, that something has now become known by a different name: The Plug. Do NOT pull the plug. Cut it off if it is attached to something, and it can go for an ambulance ride too. This is what God made bolt cutters, hacksaws, compressors and cutoff wheels for.
If you have blood spurting, and a conscious patient, you have a reason for them to maybe panic. No blood spurting means less panic. Stop the bleeding, then assess the situation, and if you can clean/clamp or deal with a pressure bandage, then go for it. By now, you should have the chopper on the way... 15 minutes with a tourniquet isn't going to cause any problems. 15 minutes of spurting and flailing... Well, maybe 5-10 minutes...
If you've got longer to to, and get nervous about the tourniquet, you can loosen it every so often. Just try to not let the patient drain out with it loosened.
WayneConrad
Member
The Israeli Emergency Bandage (PerSys Medical). Don't miss the training video on the left.
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