OK guys, maybe you can teach me something here since my responses are "utter non-sense", and I believe in "magic". If you will be so kind, please answer a few direct questions that will help me understand where you are coming from. I will also be glad to respond to any of your direct questions. In simple terms, lets get to the rat killin'.
Sean said:
If a .40 S&W and a .308 were anywhere NEAR each other in terms of "stopping power," you might could have a point. But they aren't, so you don't.
Except for the part that you leave out: on planet Earth, the rates are nowhere near each other.
... "the facts" being that the handgun round was superior than the shotgun round. Except, of course, that isn't true in real life.
You must have some absolute knowledge about "stopping power", "rates" on "planet earth", and what is true in "real life". Let's see.
Question 1
Exactly what facts do you base YOUR OPINION that a pistol round and a rifle round cannot possibly come within a few percentage points of 100% stops with one shot to the torso?
IF you have no facts, you have no point. Marshall and Sanow looked at 306 ACTUAL SHOOTINGS where IMI .308 ammunition was used and only one shot was fired. Out of all the instances they investigated where only one such round was used, they stopped the perp 98% of the time. Marshall and Sanow looked at 523 ACTUAL SHOOTINGS where Federal 125gr JHP ammunition was used and only one shot was fired. Out of all the instances they investigated where only one such round was used, they stopped the perp 96% of the time. Now if they M&S lied and just invented all those numbers, then there figures are of course meaningless. NO ONE HAS EVER PROVED THEY INVENTED THEIR FIGURES. Let's see your proof.
Question 2
How many ACTUAL SHOOTINGS have you investigated? (Or do you know of anyone else who has investigated that many similar shootings and come up with significantly different results)?
Please cite the study you base your knowledge of "real life" "stopping power" on (either your own or someone elses.) If your knowledge is not based on actual shootings then it is merely a guess of what might happen in an actual shooting. Quite frankly I am not interested in your GUESSES or anyone elses, I can guess myself. I really don't expect you to answer these two questions directly because it would show that you are just spouting off with nothing to back up what you say, but maybe you will surprise me. I have been wrong before.
Or do you really believe that any .40 S&W pistol cartridge has comparable "stopping power" to a .308 rifle? If so, you are simply too ignorant of objective reality to make your participation on this topic meaningful.
If you mean do I believe that a 40SW round (or a 357 round) could stop the same perecentage of people with one shot to the torso as a 308 round, then the answer is YES I DO BASED ON THE 829 ACTUAL SHOOTINGS MENTIONED ABOVE. I guess in your estimation I am "simply too ignorant of objective reality to make your participation on this topic meaningful." Quite a bold statement. Any fool can make bold statements, and most of them do. It will be interesting how to see IF and HOW you answer these two simple, direct questions. I am waiting to learn FROM you or ABOUT you, depending upon your response or lack of it. Let's see how "objective" your "reality" is.
So explain again how can a study to compare "stopping power" between cartridges have any value if it cannot discriminate HUGE differences in stopping power?
I have seen no proof, objective or otherwise, in this thread or elsewhere, that there is any "huge differences in stopping power" which are not expalined by M&S. Therefore I disagree with the premise of the question. Your direct answers to the two questions above (or lack thereof) should prove very enlightening to us all.
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Gabe,
You have asked some honest questions and deserve some direct answers.
But if we are attempting to draw a conclusion from data, as you are, doesn't it make a difference whether the methodology is sound?
Just because I said the data was not a "scientific experiment" does not mean I said the methodology was not sound. I believe that the methodology of M&S was sound for comparing the stopping ability of different rounds, notwithstanding comments of firearmstactical to the contrary.
Please address Sean's questions directly and explain how his argument is 'straw man' in respect to the topic.
I did address Seans questions directly above. Let's see if he answers mine. As for his straw man argument, let me explain. His basic point was:
"The study can't reliably detect EXTREMELY LARGE differences in stopping power. .308 rifle cartridges and 12ga slugs produce virtually the same OSS % figures as many handgun cartridges."
He never proved that there were any EXTREMELY LARGE differences in stopping power, period, nor that they are unaccounted for in M&S data. His "Straw Man" is his unproven ASSUMPTION that there are these extremely large differences in stopping power that M&S did not account for. His answers to questions one and two should shed light on this.
As I said: comparing rounds. The database compares rounds against each other re: their ability to 'end a gunfight'. If we don't agree on that, what is it exactly that the M&S data does again?
I said I DO believe that the M&S data is useful for comparing rounds.
Here is the point: the M&S database is worthless as a means of comparing the terminal performance of ammunition.
Question 3
Why is it worthless to look at every instance where one shot is fired and document the performance of that round under those conditions? That seems useful to me.
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Shawn,
The facts are that evaluating what the results were in hundreds of cases where one shot was fired is an extremely useful measure of what a round will and will not do with one shot.
FACT:
Out of 523 times that only one shot of Fed. 125gr JHP was fired at an attacker, the attack ceased in 96% percent of the cases.
FACT:
While that does not prove that round will stop someone 96% of the time (as you so ably point out on your site) it does prove that the 357 round is about 5 times better than a round where one shot only stopped the attack 20% of the time in hundreds of cases.
FACT:
Therefore M&S is not worthless bunk if it demostrates that a single shot of a 357 round will stop someone the same percentage of the time that a single shot of a 308 round. WE KNOW THAT IS TRUE IN 829 ACTUAL SHOOTINGS.
Question 4
Do you say that the results of these 829 shootings are worthless bunk when comparing the 2 rounds involved? If yes, explain.
Hankb
It is not just DIFFICULT to prove they are wrong without their data
I T I S I M P O S S I B L E ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Without such proof, all your other points are pure conjecture.
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Well it will be intersting to see what kind of answers we get.
Best Regards,
Roll Tide