Strategies and Tactics

[sm]

Strategies and Tactics is what this sub-forum is about.

How to think and do when a situation comes up.
One is wise to consider prevention and practiced plans ahead of time.

Not everything is handled by a firearm, or edged tool.

So I am going to share some real life situations where Strategy & Tactics were used, and the firearm or edged tool would not have done a bit of good.

1. Six year old boy, visiting his grandparents.
He has been to the Fire Station and gotten to slide down that Fire Pole, and learn about Fire, and other "Fireman stuff".
His mom , a single parent, has parented the boy, and the grandparents have parented the boy about "life stuff" both at home, and at his grandparents.

He can dial 911, on the land line telephones, and he can do so on his mom's and grandparents cell phones.

Grandma ran up to the local store, leaving grandpa and grandson to get clothes off the clothesline.
Everything just smells and feels so nice, just off a clothesline.

Grandparents are in good health, young and fit. So the grandson is giving a small load to take into the house, and his chore is to start folding.
Grandpa has not come in yet.

Grandpa tripped over a sheet and fell. When he did, he cut himself trying to break his fall. He had made a clothespin holder from a bleach bottle.

Grandson goes to check and sees all that blood and grandpa is not moving and he is only six years old.
He is a little boy, scared, eyes wide, mouth open and he remembers the fireman said sometimes it it best to not move someone, as it might hurt them more.

He runs in, and pushed that button on that alarm pad.

"Grandpa fell, hurry, help, hurry!".

Grandma sees and hears the Fire Dept Rescue vehicle. Never in her wildest dreams did she expect it, to be at her home!
Her heart sank upon coming home.
All sorts of thoughts, her grandson, her husband, ...

Grandpa come to, and was checked out and he even agreed to getting checked out to make sure he did not hurt something worse inside.
He even got some small stitches, instead of just going with a butterflies with the cuts.

Why did the little six year old boy push that button?
It was the freshest thing on his mind.

He was stressed, scared and he had never had to call 911 for real before.

His grandparents did not want the alarm advertised on TV.
Instead, they used a local mom and pop alarm company. They already had this local mom and pop Lock, Alarm and Safe place, beef up door locks, assist with motion lights and all sorts of things.

They had an older alarm system, and when the technology improved, the mom and pop store suggested they wait a tad longer, as improvements were coming fast.

Semi Rural area, folks know neighbors, they keep tabs on one another.
They have taken steps to not look like easy targets.

This alarm is both land line and wireless. It has keychain remotes.
One feature neighbors have is a outside alarm. If one of the elderly falls down, and they can hit that button, that alarm will sound and a neighbor hopefull will come check.

The little boy was shown that feature on that neat key chain remote.
He was scared, afraid to move grandpa, and he did not know for sure if that remote was in grandpa's pocket.


Not everything is handled by a firearm or edged tool.

 

[sm]

1a. More about that alarm and Problem 2-





Now this Alarm gets his grandparents a break on insurance rates.
It also is a Time Stamp, for if more serious trouble should happen.
Just a simple, mom and pop alarm set up, which reminds one of the ads on TV.

- No duty to retreat in this jurisdiction.
- If a window breaks in the wee hours, it will set off an alarm. Time Stamp
- Calling 911, and/or Local Law - again Time Stamp.

Grandparents in this case, have practiced plans, and have cover, shooting lanes and firearms in the bedroom.
They are going to stay put.
If evil breaks down that door and they are in fear of life...

Time Stamps will back them up as far as Problem 2.

"What a prudent person would do in this situation"

Grandparents are not going to do a house clearing.
Grandpa has been there and done that in Vietnam.

Evil can steal whatever they want in the front room, they have insurance.
If Evil decides to do harm or worse, they will have to come to grandparents.

All this time Time Stamps from Alarm, 911, Law are clicking.
If grandparents have to stop that threat, before the Law shows up, everything is documented.

 

[Treo]

I like the story and I understand what you're saying SM, but this is a firearms forum and because of that that's kinda where people are going to gravitate.

 

[conw]

True treo, but "Strategies and Tactics" is the name of this subforum...

Lots of times when I look closely at sm's writing I see more than originally met the eye. In this post, in particular, it's apparent to me that (and this is a usual theme of sm's) lots of people don't cover the basics, whether that's elderly provisions, motion lights, or other things.

These people have guns and all that, but what possibly saved the man's life was his grandson and a generic piece of advice. He could have died...despite the fact that by our standards he was "well prepared."

Being dead is being dead, and I would prefer not to die soon from a car wreck, fall, or being shot.


Kind of like how this one fitness writer I really like gives the advice to "floss twice a day" before you get into a serious exercise program. The idea being that if you don't have the discipline to floss twice a day (and with this simple regimen benefit yourself), you definitely don't have the discipline to train four times per week and eat six times per day.

sm seems to be saying "first things first."

 

[Fred Fuller]

Treo,

The mind is the weapon. All else is but a tool.

The material in the OP is completely appropriate for S&T. Nowhere in the name of this forum is there anything about firearms. Most of the rest of THR specifically addresses firearms, for anyone who is interested.

lpl/nc

 

[Treo]

I was not in any way trying to say that SM's thread wasn't appropriate for S&T, if I came off like that I apollogize. I was responding to the tone of we put too much emphasis on weapons here. I agree W/ it in a way but again this is a gun board people don't come here to talk about pool sticks.

 

[Jeff White]

There is so much more to Strategies and Tactics then weapons. I can teach any reasonably intelligent person to be a good enough marksman to defend him or herself in a few hours. What takes time is learning to manipulate the weapon so you can use it under stress, and what sometimes takes years of learning, often the hard way, is the mindset you need to avoid the confrontation in the first place and if that fails, the mindset needed to win the confrontation.

Mindset is the most important part of the combat triad of Mindset, Marksmanship and Manipulation. It's also the hardest part for some people to learn.

sm's posts most often address mindset. I wish we had more members posting things like his post above.

I'd like to see topics like verbal judo and other deescalation skills here. The best way to win a gunfight is to be somewhere else when it happens. The second best way is to deescalate the conflict or just leave.

Unfortunately too many people in the gun culture, many of them members here want to focus on something that most of them, even if they carry a firearm for a living will never be faced with, winning a gunfight.

The problem with that is, you can't train to win a gunfight on an internet forum, or learn how from a book or video. You have to do that hands on. What you can train on here is mindset. An internet forum because it is interactive is a good medium to train on mindset if people will open their minds to it and get away from the shooting focus.

Jeff

 

[springmom]

First of all, thank you, SM, for posting. I know you probably had to think twice about my request. I'm glad you did.

Second, I wish everybody could find these posts on their screen before they enter the S&T forum, to get a reminder that this is about software, not hardware. But maybe it could end up as a sticky when it's complete.

indset is the most important part of the combat triad of Mindset, Marksmanship and Manipulation. It's also the hardest part for some people to learn.

The mind is the weapon. All else is but a tool.

And without that as the prime directive, we are more likely to screw up and shoot the wrong person, or not shoot when we should have, than to get it right.

Software.
Not hardware.
Every. Single. Time.

Which is NOT to say that hardware doesn't matter. It's just not THE answer, as is so often (too often) the apparent assumption.

Thanks again. Keep it coming guys.

Springmom

 

[camslam]

Jeff: With all due respect to you and Lee, because you guys do a great job moderating and adding pertinent and relevant information, I have seen this type of comment more times that I care to when reading posts in S&T.

I'd like to see topics like verbal judo and other deescalation skills here. The best way to win a gunfight is to be somewhere else when it happens. The second best way is to deescalate the conflict or just leave.

Unfortunately too many people in the gun culture, many of them members here want to focus on something that most of them, even if they carry a firearm for a living will never be faced with, winning a gunfight.

It seems most times I read interesting stuff in S&T, it has someone thowing this into the mix. While I agree that the mental side of things makes up about 95% of whether or not you will be prepared for a fight and come out victorious, at the end of the day, none of us plan to be in a fight, but sometimes a fight comes to us. For those members here on THR that repeatedly make us all aware that THEY would never be caught in that type of situation because they are too aware, too smart, don't hang out in bad places, wouldn't get surrounded, etc... etc..., blah, blah, blah; I just get tired of hearing that all the time.

It is like I tell people regarding carrying a concealed weapon and the likelihood of ever having to use that weapon. I tell them I only have to be right ONE time, those that are unarmed have to rbe right ALL of the time. There is no margin for error because they will not have a way to defend themselves should they find themselves in a situation where they need it.

So while I agree wholeheartedly that there needs to be more mental and physical training should a person be involved in a lethal situation, the end result is a person or poster here on THR may

be faced with, winning a gunfight

And if they are and verbal judo and the like have not worked to de-escalate the situation, it will come down to using a weapon to defend or resolve a situation. I guess I just get tired of all the people that are just smarter than the rest of us and never ever face a bad situation because of their superpower sense of awareness and smarts.

Just venting a bit, hopefully it makes sense I wrote.

 

[K5mitch]

Slightly OT with regard to SM's post, but most of his posts read like poetry.

Seriously now, just the overall structure feels like poetry, especially when there's a story to be told by SM.



Back on topic:

I don't do much posting, but I do a lot of reading. I too would be interested to see scenarios/accounts of non-firearms S&T "verbal judo" is incredibly useful.

 

[sm]

Compressed Air Horn.

These are found in the boating/marine/ fishing sections of big box discount stores and franchised sporting goods outlets.

These things are loud! Sound travels and one can be in a situation where they need to communicate.

2. The young lady was born blind, and she had a seeing eye dog.
One of the nicest persons one could ever hope to meet. She worked a government job, and used the shuttle for employees to get to and from work.
She assisted kids, at the Blind School and used their shuttle for getting groceries and other errands.

She had practiced plans, and had trusted neighbors where she lived in a ground floor apartment.

She and that dog were so close, and knew each other so well.
Still a seeing eye dog, has to go to the Veterinarian.

Evil picks the most easiest time for them to prey on folks.
Evil saw the dog being picked up, and it was not difficult to find her utility boxes for phone, and power, out back of the Apartments. They were numbered with the Apt number.

It gets darker sooner in the wintertime and with rain and clouds it was darker that day.

She was not expecting company.
She thought nothing of her radio going off, as she figured it was weather related.
Then a knock on the door, and these folks, did not reply when she asked whom it was.

No dog.
She is blind, young, and attractive.
Everyone that knew her, knew codewords and passwords.

She asked again, and again no answer, but her sense of hearing was very good, and her gut said "trouble".

She hit that Air Horn, and boy did she!

Neighbors knew the code, and how many blasts she had hit.
Evil took off, both of them, when folks ran out and down to her place.
Codewords, passwords and she let trusted folks in.

US Marshalls lived nearest her, and these ladies arrived first.
Undercover Sheriff Deputy took off to observe and report on the punks.
I called Police direct and gave them information as it was reported to me.

One punk was caught, and he gave up his buddy.
One had been in trouble with the law, and his idea was to take advantage of a blind gal, steal her money and jlry and pawn it.



Note: She had a gun and she could shoot it.
She went out with these US Marshalls, Sheriff Deputies, City Cops and State Police, myself and others to a private range.
Her dawg, a German Shepard, like all of us.
She got lessons, and had uncanny hearing.
It is said when one loses a sense, they enhance other senses.

She had never had sight. Still we let her teach us, how to help her.
She learned on a .22 revolver.
She liked "blue" guns as they felt pretty and nice.

She chose a snub nose, S&W, J frame in 32 caliber, as it felt pretty and nice.
Her deal was contact shooting.

Seriously she had never had sight, and we set up little cow bells and "tinker bells" as she called them.
She could be "spotted" ( getting set up) and ring a bell and shoot balloons about 6" in diameter.
Then she went to tin cans.
Ring a bell, and she shot the can under it, from 3 to 5 yards.
She got to where she could shoot further out.

The gun was just in case some evil got past other measures and she had to use it. All the legal was shared with her.

She hit that air horn that day.
What the two punks did not know was she had her "pretty and nice" snub nose revolver, and she had shot one tin can after another in a row, from 3 yards, to 5 yards, just hearing a little bell.
German Shepard with his goofy grin so proud of his "momma".

Air horns are great communication tools, when the power is out, and phone service is out.
One does not have to be blind to see this air horn as another tool in the toolbox.

 

[Fred Fuller]

camslam,

Well, here it is again, from one of the still-practicing masters of the art (bolding is mine):

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html

19 Mar 03

Layers of response:

Years ago, Jeff Cooper delineated the "Color Code" and the "Principles of Personal Defense" in an effort to provide us with a logical model for one's thinking on the subject of mental preparedness. I'd like now to go to the next step and apply the same logic to the issue of personal appearance and demeanor, as we all agree that, in the domestic defensive environment, avoiding a fight is preferable to winning one.

Layer One: Nonattendance. The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms. Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.

Crowds of any kind, particularly those with an agenda, such as political rallies, demonstrations, picket lines, etc are good examples of "stupid places." Any crowd with a high collective energy level harbors potential catastrophe. To a lesser degree, bank buildings, hospital emergency rooms, airports, government buildings, and bars (particularly crowded ones) fall into the same category. All should be avoided. When they can't be avoided, we should make it a practice to spend only the minimum time necessary there and then quickly get out.

"A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

Layer Two: Functional invisibility. We all need to practice to art of "being invisible." It is in our best interest to go our way unnoticed, both by potential predators and by the criminal justice system alike.

Whenever I travel, particularly to foreign countries, I endeavor to be the one that no one notices; no one recalls; no one remembers. I silently slip through the radar, leaving no trace, a nameless, faceless tourist. When in any public place, I try to be clean and well groomed, but I never wear bright colors, any kind of jewelry, or anything shiny. I smile a lot, but talk softly and as little as possible. As we say in the law enforcement business, "Courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one."

Loud talking, bright colors, Rolex watches, etc will consistently accumulate unwanted attention. On the other end of the spectrum, tattoos, poor grooming, loud and offensive language, a slovenly appearance, etc will also garner unwelcome notice.

Layer Three: Deselection. Any successful predator has the ability to quickly screen potential victims, focusing in on the ones who look as if they will make good victims and rejecting those who either (1) look too strong for expedient victimization or (2) don't conveniently fall into any particular category.

When invisibility fails, we need endeavor to be consistently deselected for victimization. We do this by making it a habit to appear alert, uninviting, self-confident, and strong. At the same time, we never loiter or appear indecisive. We are always in motion.

"Weakness perceived is weakness exploited!"

Layer Four: Disengagement: Our best interests are not served by any kind of engagement with potential predators. Successful disengagement involves posturing, bearing, verbalizations, and movement. It is in our best interest to disengage at the lowest reasonable force level, but we must simultaneously be prepared to instantly respond to unlawful force with superior force.

Potential predators, as they attempt verbal engagement, should be politely dismissed. Bearing and eye contact should always project strength and confidence. We should continuously be moving off the "line of force." We should be observant in every direction, giving potential predator duos and trios the distinct impression that they will not be able to sneak up on us.

When predators are confused, they are unable to focus sufficiently to carry off their victimization. Therefore, never let a potential predator seize the agenda. Don't answer his questions, and don't stay in any one place very long.

Disengagement, separation, and exit are our immediate goals when we have been selected or are being seriously evaluated by predators. However, if there is to be a fight, the best one is a short one. If a predator menaces me with a gun or a knife, I know that, before it is all over, there is a good chance that I will be shot or cut. However, within that prison of circumstance, I also know that the faster I can end the fight, the less hurt I'm going to get! If there must be a fight, I must explode into action, moving smoothly and quickly, in an effort to confuse and overwhelm my opponent before he has a chance to process all the information I'm throwing at him.

Ultimately, we must "have a plan." Potentially dangerous encounters must be thought about in advance. Decisions must be made. Skills must be practiced. Confusion, hesitation, and vacillation will always attract the attention of predators and simultaneously stimulate predator behavior.

/John

=========================

That would be John Farnam. Ever train with him or see him at work? I have. I like what John does and how he does it. I should be as good as he is, in every aspect. I wish...

Here's a more recent post from John. Take a look at it too:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/13June08.html

Instructors

13 June 08

During this current election year, there is no shortage of commercial Small-Arms Instructors. I'm hearing of new names in this Industry nearly every day. It has been my honor to know and influence some. We are indeed blessed with this enthusiastic, new generation of aspiring Instructors, and I surely hope we in the existing/fading generation are serving them as well as we need to.

Americans are nervous, and should be! Fuel costs are slowing world commerce, and we all know that, when goods don't move across international borders, armies will!

The knowledge and skills we do our best to pass on have been gleaned at great price, over many decades, indeed many centuries. Our Art must not only be preserved, but refined and advanced as we all sit on this precipice in world history. America, indeed all of Western Civilization, is in desperate need of competent Gunmen/Operators. We can't have too many!

Retail gun sales are way up, but those subsequently seeking respectable, serious training still represent only a minuscule minority. Gun manufacturers are providing us with superior products, yet, even among these people, practical knowledge of the way their products are carried, trained with, and used is scant.

Practical, true weapons skills reside in an expanding Priesthood, both in-and-out of law enforcement and in-and-out of the Military. Oftentimes however, the bigger the institution, the more uninspired and out-of-date the training.

That is the reason devoted, private-sector consultant/trainers constitute the core of our Priesthood. Small deeds done are better than great deeds planned! We are able to move faster and more boldly than anyone else, and we are not constrained, nor even influenced, by inane political agendas, nor internal squabbling, nor sterile, irrelevant competitions. We have the honor of Leading the Way!

For one, I prefer eccentricity, driven by a passionate pursuit of excellence, over mediocrity, driven by a banal pursuit of money. When true to our Art, our training is neither "fun," nor "entertaining," nor "relaxing," nor " safe." It is strenuous, dangerous work. Anything less, and we're kidding ourselves, and defrauding our students.

I know serial cynics who try to entertain their students, and, yes, some of that is necessary in order to maintain their interest, but we can never lose sight of the importance of what we're doing and of our Place in history. We are on the Forward Edge of the Battle Area for the survival of this Civilization!

When listening to some, for whom I have scan[t] respect, I'm reminded of The Pirates of Penzance:

"I am the very model of a modern Major-General I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral I know the Kings of England, and I quote the fights historical From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical

I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse

... ad nauseam"

Well, as Hubert Humphrey said, "The 'right' to be heard does not automatically imply a 'right' to be taken seriously!"

Never forget that "what you are" says more about you than what you profess to believe. What you believe is more important than what you've managed to acquire, and whom you inspire will go forth and do far more noble deeds than will those you impress.

Follow me!

/John
=========================

We can at least try to live up to that. It isn't asking too much, IMHO.

lpl/nc

 

[TallPine]

Layer One: Nonattendance. The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms.

That's my "strategy"

But then folks hereabout (thr) say that I'm a "sheltered hermit"

Honestly, I hate cities and I hate crowds. Almost everything I want or need is right here where I live, with the exception of various supplies and food. Once or twice a month trip to town is more than enough for me. (did I mention that I hate spending money, too? )

If trouble "comes", it is almost certainly literally going to have to come way out of its way to come to me. The trouble (there's that word again) is that you can't always run away from trouble no matter how far you go. Trouble sometimes literally comes knocking at your door. It has come to ours, though so far without escalating to violence.

 

[EHCRain10]

thats a great idea about the air horn, even in the boonies theres almost always a house within hearing range plus i have seen at least two different sizes one not much bigger than pepper spray

 

[camslam]

Lee: I'm in complete agreement with what you are saying and posting. It IS best to not be present when bad situations happen.

However, you know as well as I, that there are situations that happen every day around this country and world that people are not "expecting" to happen.

I have always told people when they ask why I carry a concealed weapon and say, "are you expecting to need your gun?"

To which I usually reply, "If I thought I was going to need my gun, I sure wouldn't bother going to the place."

But that doesn't change the fact that despite all you can do, you may still end up being in a bad situation. What I get tired of is the people on this forum that play Monday morning quarterback every day of the week when assessing situations others have been in and have an attitude that they are too smart, too aware, and too prepared to have gotten into a situation like the poor sap they are critiquing.

I don't care how aware you are, how alert you are, how prepared you are, at some point you may be in a situation that goes south quickly. My comments were made to point out that the mental aspects are great and as I mentioned, are about 95% of a successful engagement, but at the end of the day you may still be in a gun fight and you will need to be able to use your weapon appropriately.

I think we are all pretty much on the same page with this, I'm just tired of all the supermen, superwomen, and super heroes that will never allow themselves to be caught off guard.

 

[springmom]

Camslam, I'd take it one further and say I'm tired of any exaggerated posturing on these topics. This is not Call of Duty IV and when mom calls you for dinner you don't get a do-over the next day. These discussions are all about putting a round of very hot metal, going at very high speeds, into body parts of living humans who, at one point, someone looked at with pride and said "My son" (or daughter). It is a grave exercise our minds and our bodies, and it is not...EVER....a reason for the exercise of oneupmanship or chest thumping machismo (or machisma, for us ladies).

Yet the ease with which people discuss taking on 12 guys at once...wow. It never ceases to amaze me how many phenomenal martial artists and gunfighters we have on this board. Just ask them.

At least folks who are tooting their horns about being able to look invisible have the right idea, if too forcefully expressed.

Springmom, who's probably too forceful by half herself most of the time

 

[camslam]

Springmom: You are exactly right, the internet makes some people really invincible, doesn't it?

To me the difference between the two extremes you mentioned:

Those that have the super powers of knowing all things, being aware of all things, and never being caught in a bad situation - They have the unique talent of talking down to people and DISMISSING the odd, random, unfortunate events that can and DO happen to people all the time.

Those that have the ability to take on 12 plus assailants and take them out with a combination of judo, karate, knife play, and guns if they need it.
Those don't bother me as much because for the most part they are harmless, because most likely they will be soiling themselves if they actually had that type of encounter.

I guess it comes down to the dismissal of bad fortune that happens to people. Can you avoid most bad situations? If you are prepared, alert, and aware, most likely. But that doesn't mean you aren't going to have a bad day at some point, regardless of what super powers you have. So I would hope people would quit dismissing the misfortune of others.

 

[sm]

Note: This was before 911 and cell phones.

Seventeen year old high school gal, is asked to be a bridesmaid.
She lives in a bedroom community and the wedding is being held in a new part of a bigger city.

She hates all the traffic in the big city anyway, and with all the new developments, she and her parents gripe about landmarks being removed, everything looks different and it is pretty easy to get turned around.

Her mom insists she take her car into the bigger city for all this wedding business , instead of her "high school beater car" she uses in the smaller bedroom community.

She attends a simple dinner after some planning one evening and is headed home about 10pm.
She has called her parents to let them know she is headed home.

At the stop light, those boys are acting a bit crazy, and talking dirty and displaying beer and all.
She made 3 right turns and these boys followed her.

She looked first, still ran a red light and sped past a seasoned cop, sitting on a parking lot of a business.
Off course he watched her run the red light, and hit the "Cherry on Top" and was in pursuit when she watched traffic, still it was not the most "legal" entry into Fire Station where she hit the brakes and laid on the horn!

She had a Cop, and Fire Dept Folks wondering what the heck was going on.

She told them and did not get a ticket.
Her parents were called, informing them she was going to be a bit late, not to worry and explained everything.
The seasoned cop followed her out of the big city, and then the local bedroom community cop contacted and met, followed the young lady home.



Time passes... and this ladies daughter is now the one in a bigger city and gets that creepy feeling at a stop light one night.
She too heads for a Fire Station.

She had a cell phone, just she remembered her mom and what she did, and never even gave the cell phone a thought.

 

[Jeff White]

camslam,

It's not dismissing the misfortune of others to point out what they could have done to avoid the situation.

No one here is trying to discourage anyone from defending themselves. But one thing I learned in 22 years as a police officer in rural America is that people tend to bring trouble on themselves with the poor decisions they make. The TV news gives most people a very skewed view of what life is really like. The old, "it bleeds it leads" school of journalism has most of the American public thinking that it's a jungle out there.

The facts don't prove that though. The dirty little secret of our society is that violent crime is mostly between members of the criminal class. If you don't lead a criminal lifestyle, or hang out with people who do, your chances of being a victim of a violent crime are pretty small. Does that mean that I advocate not taking measures to defend yourself if need be? No! It just means it's more productive to learn to recognize a violent criminal actor and avoid him then it is to strap on your sidearm and go on his turf.

Good people do get caught up in bad situations from time to time. For one thing, we only have the luxury of choosing our friends, not our family. So you must be ready to defend yourself.

You can't learn to shoot on an internet forum. You can't learn how to efficiently manipulate your weapon here either. But you can learn mindset. and mindset is the most important to skill to have.

If you don't know how to recognize the threat coming at you, you are going to be on the ground bleeding out with your pistol in your holster, wondering what happened. Recognizing the threat coming at you gives you time to avoid it or if that's not possible, act.

I absolutely hate the cavalier attitude that the internet gun culture has towards the use of deadly force. I would guess that for many of those members that if they were ever in a fight it was in the third grade and they are just being brave online because our society doesn't really permit a person to test himself these days. I imagine most of them would be on their hands and knees puking their guts out if they ever saw the aftermath of a violent death first hand.

Most people who surf in and out of here are never going to train. Training is expensive, it takes time away from other things, and it's hard work. My experiences as a trainer in the Army, on the PD and lately with open classes for private citizens has reinforced my view that many suffer from what I like to call American Male Syndrome, it's a disease that convinces them that they left the womb knowing everything there is to know about shooting, fighting, driving and sex. And if they were to train, it might be embarrassing if they didn't perform to the standard they think they should, or heaven forbid, someone show them up and do better.

If we just talk about shootouts, we're going to be like every other gun forum on the internet. It's our goal to make the Strategies and Tactics forum more then that.

The level of discourse on Strategies and Tactics has dropped to such a low level that most of the good discussions only take place on private, invitation only forums. We're trying to bring that level of discourse back to THR.

Jeff

 

[SomeKid]

Jeff, I agreed with the vast majority of your last post, however...

I imagine most of them would be on their hands and knees puking their guts out if they ever saw the aftermath of a violent death first hand.

I am curious, what makes you think that? Assuming most posters are reasonably honest with their lives and are who they say they are (Example, you say you are a cop, I assume you are being truthful, I say I am a nursing student, you accept that truth), quite a few of the posters on this forum don't sound like coddled children. So, what makes you think most people would be so frightened?

 

[Fred Fuller]

camslam,

Please go to http://www.shivworks.com/ and look around a bit. That's the web home of a young working street cop known as Southnarc. He still does UC work, thus the pseudonym.

His 'take' on the continuum of defensive distance is much broader than most who essay to teach others how to defend themselves. Southnarc assumes from the getgo that at some point his students' awareness will fail. His phrase is often repeated in class- "when your awareness fails."

People DO get surprised sometimes. Even the most highly trained, the most focused, the most aware. It DOES happen. That's why his POIs (programs of instruction) include ECQC and other training aimed at teaching self defense at 0 yards.

People who are "gun-centric" tend to think overwhelmingly that the gun is the solution to all defensive problems. It isn't, unfortunately. A gun will not always repel evil to a safe enough distance that it can be engaged without having to put hands on it.

But that doesn't mean you can't try to prepare yourself to salvage the situation that arises WHEN your awareness fails. That doesn't mean you can't carry more than one weapon, and have a weapon easily accessible to your support hand if your shooting hand is pinned by an unforeseen attack.

Gunfights don't all start at 7 yards. Some of them take place while in contact with an attacker. I've known two trainers so far who worked hard at developing and teaching counters which allow a defender to make room to get a gun into play while at contact distance with an assailant, and not shoot yourself in the process. Southnarc is one, the other is John Holschen, who was when I knew him an active duty Special Forces soldier at Fort Bragg (now retired and teaching at InSights).

I too am tired of folks in S&T who "know it all." The only reason to be here is to try to learn something useful, and anyone who knows it all already is wasting their time here.

lpl/nc

 

[Jeff White]

somekid asked;

am curious, what makes you think that? Assuming most posters are reasonably honest with their lives and are who they say they are (Example, you say you are a cop, I assume you are being truthful, I say I am a nursing student, you accept that truth), quite a few of the posters on this forum don't sound like coddled children. So, what makes you think most people would be so frightened?

In my experience the people who boast the loudest about their personal prowess have the least experience with these things and often are unable to function when confronted with a violent situation. That's not always true but most of the time it is.

Jeff

 

[TallPine]

It seems like about 80% of the violent crime that I read about in Montana occurs at/near bars or out on the street between 11pm and 4am. That's a good time to be locked inside the house safe in bed

Most of the remaining 20% is domestic violence.

 

[sm]

I had my CCW, and had a shotgun, behind the seat of the truck.
Just out running errands, and had picked up the shotgun from someone that had borrowed it.

I pulled off the main road into a strip center to get smokes.
Just as I pulled into the parking place at the front of the store, a fight erupted.
One second, nothing. The next I have two youths with a 3 rd youth down on the hood of the car I have pulled next to.

Okay...I hit reverse, I mean I don't need to buy smokes here, especially since trouble just showed up.

Strip center, front door parking, then there is an area for folks to park in the midst of the center. So one has to watch traffic, as one does in a parking lot.

Now I have not pulled all the way in, when this trouble showed up, and I have to watch backing up...
Out of the corner of my eye, I see "guns!"

The youths on the hood has pulled a gun, the other two jump back and one youth cannot get something out of his pocket (gun?) and he takes off.
The other one does get his gun out and the fella just off the hood is coming at him with his gun...

Screw it, I have eased my door opened and I am backing up hoping I do not hit anyone, as I am down and watching parking lot along drivers side.
I hear a scream and cussing!

This youth that was on the hood, is nowat my hood pointing his gun at my windshield and pulling the trigger!

Screw it, I am backing up, even if I do have to hit someone!
I get backed up, go forward and ease on down the lot and get parked (sorta) alongside a SUV. Head down and just peeking through my cracked drivers door.
I have cover and a ball point pen and my skinny butt is observing and reporting and writing down tag numbers.

Vehicles take off!

Now I missed some of what went down, as my skinny butt was evading.
Trouble showed up. Fine. I will leave.

Folks are on the sidewalk watching. On the sidewalk while guns are out and nobody got behind the big friggin' columns. Just stand there with mouths open and hands to face , frozen out in the open.

Store employees froze, including one pregnant lady, at the glass door, and glass window no more that 3 steps away from all this.

So I get up, hear my engine running, shut it off and I have parked really bad. Screw it.
I ease over and I have frozen folks just standing there.
I enter the store and without asking, I just grab paper cups and "call the <expletive> <expletive> Cops!

One car decided to pull in and I holler "back up and stop!"
I was not in a very good mood.
I just decided to take charge of matters until the Cops showed. So I have a fella curse me and I curse back there has been "guns" I do not want him messing up the crime scene.
Me cussing back and saying "guns" shut him up. I proceed to put paper cups over spent ctgs.

This youth had kept tripping trigger at me , the gun would not go bang, so he kept racking out ctgs and trying again.
According the folks in the store watching.
So all these paper cups covered all those ctgs he racked out of his gun.

Cops showed up and see these paper cups, they approached me, and I was making damn sure the youths did not come back and I was protecting my paper cup handiwork.

I show them my hand, where I wrote down tag numbers and they write down license plates, another officer looks at my CCW license and DL.
No problem with me having a gun, they did not care I was standing there with it on my person.
These two Cops were super nice.
One bought me a Coke and I gave them the descriptions.

They called in tags and descriptions and then I gave them the run down of what I saw.
They got witnesses to share what they saw.

Then I was informed how that one youth kept trying to shoot me.
He stayed right at my hood, , and actually followed my backing up, trying to shoot me, until I was clear enough to drive forward.
One officer ...the seasoned officer...had a "chat" with the folks in the store about just standing there.
He also had a chat with the sidewalk gawkers.

So I drink my Coke, and the Seasoned officer asked me what I would have done had I not been able to evade as I was blocked from the rear.

So in the store I said " I would have put the truck in gear and hit the gas pedal and run over his arse!"

Seasoned officer and his partner smiled.
Employees sorta freaked at the idea of a youth with a gun coming inside through the glass with a truck following.

I have a right to stop a threat if I am in fear of my life in my jurisdiction.
I had a legit fear of my life, and in a court of law, if I had gone forward to stop a youth from doing what he was doing with a gun at the hood of my truck, Problem 2 , "hopefully" would have gone a lot smoother.

I never put my hand on my CCW that I can recall.
Evading, getting distance, observe and report was on my mind.
Followed by assisting with anyone down or injured after the fact until first responders showed.
This was not my first rodeo, and it has not been my last.

 

[conw]

sm, glad you're okay.

Boxoftruth has a really good breakdown of S&T, based on their primary research, for cars.

Past "don't be there when it goes down," there is 1) if possible lay down cover fire get the heck out of there 2) use the car as a weapon or 3) get out of the car and run (as according to their secondary research people tend to keep shooting cars for some reason even after people inside leave them).

I know this sounds like an armchair quarterback talking, but I think I would have gone straight into "Drive" and run him over. Then again if it was a small parking lot and he had friends it may have been less effective.