Straw purchase law has me concerned.

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rugerdude

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Okay, I'm 17 years old with no criminal history at all and in no way prohibited from posessing a firearm. My state allows me to posess a long-arm by myself and a handgun under special circumstances or under adult supervision/parental consent.

Now, I just read the ATF definition of straw purchase. I had previously believed that it was only a straw purchase if the actual recipient was prohibited from owning that gun. The law states that even if they were perfectly fine to go buy it themselves, it is still illegal.

What concerns me is that because I am 17 I have to be gifted a gun, as was the case with 5 of my guns, but the other 5 were bought with my money for me to shoot.

I still live with the purchaser of these guns (my father), they are kept at his house and he does have full authority over them, but I'm the only one who uses them because he's just not into the sport.

Is this illegal?

Is this going to look illegal at a gunshow if I'm haggling and holding then my dad pays the price with my money? In 4 cases including the purchase of a handgun, the situation was just like the one I described above, but nobody cared (FFL and Academy sports were the sellers) even when I handed him the cash.

Any clarification ont he law would be great.
 
I hate to rain on your parade, but... if he used YOUR money with the intent of purchasing the guns for YOU, its a straw purchase.

Its a stupid law, but its the law.
 
A LOT of us bought their first gun at an age when Dad had to sign for it.

IANAL, but unless the son/daughter becomes involved in something criminal, I think the BATmen would have an incredibly difficult time successfully prosecuting a parent for buying their child a gun, or letting Junior use his own money to buy one while they fill out the paperwork. Especially if both keep their mouths shut about whose money is being used. (Heck, maybe the son was just holding Dad's money for Dad, and did the haggling for practice under the father's direction - a little unusual, but let anyone outside the family PROVE otherwise.)
 
It takes seemingly forever to get up to 18 (or 21 for a handgun, or buying a beer, for that matter), doesn't it? ;) But trust me, the years will fly by after that. :D

But until you do, your father will have to buy the guns under his own name and gift them to you. There is no law against that.
 
18 is the legal age to buy a handgun private purchase

Everyone knows that!
 
You are a minor child. Legally that puts you in about the same situation as a slave in colonial times. Your guardians can take the money, the guns, even your clothes away and you have no recourse. In that context it's hard to defend the idea of this as a straw purchase. It's not legally your gun no matter what you and your parents call it.

Now... when you hit 18 you enter another phase. At that point you are a quasi-citizen. You can vote, own firearms (in most states) and so on but we still don't trust you. No drinking, no buying handguns, no buying handgun ammo. At that point if you give mom $500 to buy that nice pistol you think you need you've got a genuine straw purchase.

What a world. :(
 
IANAL, but unless the son/daughter becomes involved in something criminal, I think the BATmen would have an incredibly difficult time successfully prosecuting a parent for buying their child a gun, or letting Junior use his own money to buy one while they fill out the paperwork.
Click to expand...

While I would normally agree with you 100%, since it has always seemed to me that intent is a hard thing to prove, it won't be that hard to prove when they hit the Print Screen button and bring the printout of him admitting it into court.

While I try not to fall for most of the tin hattery, admitting that you and your father have committed a felony on a public internet forum doesn't seem like a great idea. It's entirely up to you, but you might want to edit your post.
Is this going to look illegal at a gunshow if I'm haggling and holding then my dad pays the price with my money?
Click to expand...

Not only will it look illegal, it will actually be illegal (at least if the seller is a dealer and not a private party.)

If it is your dad's money, and he bought it as a gift for you, everything is legal. If it is your money, and you ask him to use your money to buy you a gun, and he fills out ATF From 4473, he is being dishonest on question 11.a (Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm . . ?) and the gov't frowns on that.
 
The federal law/regulation specifically allows a parent to give a gun to a minor child. All the stipulations about "control" and all that do apply, but that has nothing to do with the purchase, itself. (Different states have different laws so I won't make any effort beyond federal law.)

Okay: You gave the money to your father. Fine, it's a gift. He bought a firearm. He gave you the firearm as a gift. That's fully legal.

A straw purchase is one where the buyer knowingly buys a firearm for a person who is legally restricted from owning firearms. "Legally restricted", primarily a felon or a nutzoid. It would apply in the case of an adult who buys for an underage minor who is not his family member, possibly.

Art
 
If you have your dad buy you a gun, it's probably best not to be present when he does it.
 
A straw purchase is one where the buyer knowingly buys a firearm for a person who is legally restricted from owning firearms. "Legally restricted", primarily a felon or a nutzoid.
Click to expand...

Art, this is not the case. A straw purchase has nothing to do with the criminal or mental history of either party. A straw purchase is simply one person buying a gun and filling out the 4473 even though someone else will actually own the gun, with the exception of gifts (real, actual, gifts, not "I give you this money as a gift, how about you go buy me a gun and give it to me as a gift.")
 
"...with the exception of gifts."

If such were the case, the intent of the strawman law would be totally wiped out, as all such purchases would be declared to be gifts.

Somebody search and cite. It's been posted before...
 
I will search and cite, as I have done many times in the past. The myth that a straw purchase must involve criminals who cannot otherwise purchase firearms continues to live on. That is one case of a straw purcahse, but not the only case.

First, there is no actual "straw purchase law." You won't find it in any law book. The crime is, I believe, perjury, and is a felony. If you are not the actual purchaser, and you write YES on question 11.a), you have lied.

I would guess that this is normally hard to prosecute, as they would generally have to play both the "follow the money" game and the "what was the intent of the purchaser at the time of purchase" game.

But the OP clearly states that his dad had no intention of buying a gun for himself, and that his dad did not purchase it as a gift, but instead took the OP's money and purchased it for the OP.

Here is what the Federal Firearms Regulations Guide has to say on the subject, emphasis added:


16. "STRAW PURCHASES"
Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases
from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to
acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser
to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the
actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used
because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That
is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other
prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a
resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises
is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw
purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee.
In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is
prohibited from acquiring the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's
residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the
straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or
caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm
under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware
of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual
purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the
licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the
licensee.
An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks
Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law
by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also
violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the
making of false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of
the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the
true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above
example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr.
Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form
4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of
straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the
actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the
dealer's records.
Click to expand...

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/geninfo.pdf , page 25 of 32

I am aware also of US vs. Charles Ray Polk. No. 96-40836, Fifth Circuit, which seems to say that if you are both legal to own a gun you will be OK, but the ATF doesn't seem to agree with this, and they will be the ones prosecuting.
 
All you have to do is read the back of 4473

A straw purchase is when you use someone else's money to buy them a gun
It doesn't matter if they are prohibited or not

The intent of the law was to eliminate one way prohibited persons could obtain firearms, but the reality of the law is that it prevents me from picking up a gun at the show for my perfectly legal LEO BIL when he can't get off duty

Theft is against the law plain and simple
Some people steal to support a drug habit, which is also illegal
Some steal because they are desperately poor, which is not illegal

As with straw purchases the reason behind the act is not what makes the act illegal the act itself is illegal
 
A straw purchase is one where the buyer knowingly buys a firearm for a person who is legally restricted from owning firearms. "Legally restricted", primarily a felon or a nutzoid.
Click to expand...
No, a straw purchase is when the person filling out the 4473 has to lie to say "Yes" to the question; "Are you the actual purchaser of this gun?"

Doesn't matter if the "actual purchaser" is a supreme court justice or chief of police, if the person filling out the 4473 is not the "actual purchaser" BAM its a straw purchase.

Basically a "Straw Purchase" as a form of Perjury.

Now in the case of the OP, he's a minor child and as such has zero right to property (unless he's been emancipated by the court) ... so "his" money is actually his parent's money ... so by way of that technicality, his father used his own money to purchase the guns and therefore is the "actual purchaser".

But I wouldn't want Agent Schmuckatelli to stumble across this thread on a slow afternoon. :uhoh:
 
You are a minor child. Legally that puts you in about the same situation as a slave in colonial times. Your guardians can take the money, the guns, even your clothes away and you have no recourse. In that context it's hard to defend the idea of this as a straw purchase. It's not legally your gun no matter what you and your parents call it.
Click to expand...

Now in the case of the OP, he's a minor child and as such has zero right to property (unless he's been emancipated by the court) ... so "his" money is actually his parent's money ... so by way of that technicality, his father used his own money to purchase the guns
Click to expand...

Interesting point that I hadn't thought about, thank you both for that perspective.
 
Art Eatman and Ed Ames are correct it is not a straw purchase if you are under age. When you become of age it would still be a un winnable case for the BATF because of the father son relationship.
 
From the ATF website as to the parent/juvenile (juvenile = under 18) arrangement. The key is "consent of parent", and as long as the juvenile has the written permission on his person during legal activities, he's golden.

"The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in
pertinent part as follows:

18 U.S.C. 922(x)

(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or
otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to
knowingly possess--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to--
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or
to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the
handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile--
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or
farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the
permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities
related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice,
hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a
handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or
guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from
possessing a firearm, except--
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in
a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at
which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and
transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked
container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place
to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in
clause (i) a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with
the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian
and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal,
State, or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's
possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the
juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in
the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a
handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in
defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the
residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an
invited guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred
to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in
violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent
confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile
subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile,
but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or
ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of
investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term ``juvenile'' means a
person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court
shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal
guardian at all proceedings."
 
As far as anyone knows, your father, the purchaser, is also the owner of the guns. He lets you use them, which is perfectly legal as long as you are not running afoul of any adult supervision rules when doing so.

Just make sure that your father knows that if anyone asks, he is the "owner" of the guns, because he is, right? Who's to say otherwise? When you turn 21, they are "gifted" to you and you become the legal owner. What's the problem?

K
 
As far as anyone knows, your father, the purchaser, is also the owner of the guns. He lets you use them, which is perfectly legal as long as you are not running afoul of any adult supervision rules when doing so.
Click to expand...
Until you post it on an internet forum ... then EVERYONE knows you gave your dad money and he bought you the guns. :uhoh:


The likelihood of actual prosecution is pretty slim here ... but not impossible. I do believe a good lawyer would get your father off, but I wouldn't want my future staked on the whims of the court.

And Art, maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where any of the part of the law you quoted allows "straw purchases" by fathers for underage sons.

Where the hell is El Tejon when we need him?
 
I agree that there is no law against a father giving a gun as a gift, the child owning it "with consent" and written permission, etc.

I still maintain that any time Person A gives money to Person B so that B can purchase in place of A, it is a straw purchase.

Ed Ames and Zundfolge both point out that it isn't technically the child's money, but the father's, and therefore the child can't give it to the father to make the straw purchase. I wouldn't trust the same loophole to work with an Uncle though.
 
I also wouldn't want to rely on that technicality either.

Common law traditions don't seem to hold up in court these days unless they are reinforcing the power of the king.
 
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