Straw purchase law has me concerned.

[Art Eatman]

Best I could find right now having to do with straw purchases, specifically, comes from this press release I found at the ATF website:

"US Attorney Charlton added: "Often, people who are prohibited from owning guns try and get around the law by having friends or relatives purchase the guns for them. This is a straw purchase. Illegal firearms traffickers often use straw purchasers to buy guns for them so their own name is not recorded in gun store records. Then they resell these guns to criminals. So when a person is asked to buy a gun for someone else, they must understand that they are being asked to commit a federal felony. When a person makes a straw purchase, they are not just risking prison time; they are arming gang members, felons, and illegal aliens."

Notice that he's speaking to cause--prohibited from owning guns--and the intent to evade the law. He's not talking about the father/son thing. Neither Rugerdude nor his father are prohibited persons insofar as gun ownership.

 

[rugerdude]

Agent Schmukateli can do what he pleases if he really wants to track down my "dangerous felon straw purchasing" behind and prosecute, I really hope he's got something better to do. I'm not going to hide something in fear of the G-man finding out. I'm not trying to sound tough or anything like that, it's just that I don't believe I have anything to hide.

Oh well, if they do catch me (I'm in my super secret bunker plotting to destroy modern civilization) some of you can come with me to court for conspiracy!

Am I the only one that thinks it's messed up that this law is so unclear to the people on here who are the very people who SHOULD know it.


Okay, riddle me this: I used to be on a competetive skeet shooting team where all of the people were under 18. How are the shooters supposed to get a gun for themselves if their parents don't magically know what "gift" to give?

 

[Zundfolge]

Art, watch the little training video I linked (or click the link under it and read the transcript ... but you'll miss the groovy music) ... it covers the law more broadly than the press release.

Am I the only one that thinks it's messed up that this law is so unclear to the people on here who are the very people who SHOULD know it.

Read my sig.

Okay, riddle me this: I used to be on a competetive skeet shooting team where all of the people were under 18. How are the shooters supposed to get a gun for themselves if their parents don't magically know what "gift" to give?

Read a catalog ... go to the gun shop on Friday, point out the one you want ... dad goes back on Saturday and has them gift wrap it. Just don't give dad the cash, walk in with him, point at the one you want and then have him lie on the 4473.

I understand the intent of the law, but for the most part the law is stupid ... As far as I'm concerned the only time a straw purchase should be illegal is if the "straw purchaser" is buying a gun for a prohibited person.

 

[Art Eatman]

rugerdude, we're all sorta writing and posting nearly at the same time. Go back and read some of the prior posts.

You have no problems at all, as near as I can tell from all this reading of ATF stuff--which is what I said in my very first post.

 

[rugerdude]

and if dad wants Jr. to be responsible and pay for it using the money that Jr. worked hard for?

 

[waterhouse]

Okay, riddle me this: I used to be on a competetive skeet shooting team where all of the people were under 18. How are the shooters supposed to get a gun for themselves if their parents don't magically know what "gift" to give?

When I was 6, my mom brought me in to try on a baseball glove. I didn't have any money, because I was 6, but we needed to make sure the glove fit, so I had to go try it out. Then she paid for it, with her money, and gave it to me.

If the same exact thing had been done with a gun, it would have been fine. You can go pick out the gun, fondle it, whatever. But when the buyer buys it, they have to use their money, and then they have to give it to you as a gift. It is when your* money enters the equation that things become unlawful. [this example is strictly based on straw purchase rules and does not take into account any laws concerning the transfer of a gun to a minor]

*as mentioned, in the case of a minor, it is possible that there is no such thing as your money.

and if dad wants Jr. to be responsible and pay for it using the money that Jr. worked hard for?

I never said it was a good law, but it is the law, and if dad wants Jr. to be responsible and not commit a felony (even though it is a stupid felony) he will find some other item that Jr. also wants (like, perhaps, ammo, or a scope, or a reloader, or any number of other items that don't involve a 4473) and have Jr. responsibly spend his money on those items.

 

[Zundfolge]

One thing that really sucks about the way the straw purchase law works is that if I go into a gun shop with a friend of mine that doesn't know a lot about guns and I say "You should buy that one" and he tries to buy it, there's a lot of clerks that will smell straw purchase and refuse ... even though I'm just a consultant, not the end recipient of the gun.

Again, Art, I respectfully disagree ... I don't think its clear from what I've read from the ATF site that rogerdude is 100% in the clear ... I suspect he and his father will be left alone, I also suspect that a cleaver lawyer could weasel his way around it ... but a staunch anti ATF agent and a slimy anti gun DA could make some serious trouble for them over this, and there's no guarantee they'd come out on the happy side of it.


Anyway, I really wish El Tejon or one of the other actual lawyers on the forum would weigh in on this one.

 

[rugerdude]

Ah the "justice" system.

If onlyI were rich and famous I could just go buy illegal machineguns while the kid who is doing something more responsible than just being given a gun has to worry about prosecution.

 

[waterhouse]

To be fair, even if you were rich and famous* the ATF gets upset when you buy illegal machineguns

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=309123

*I had never heard of the guy, so the famous part is certainly debatable.

 

[Art Eatman]

Uh, rugerdude, go check out today's http://www.ajc.com and read about the rapper, IT or TI or some such name. He's rich and famous--or, used to be rich...

Midnight, Eastern Time Zone. I'm gone to beddie-bye.

, Art

 

[waterhouse]

Well Art, even when we disagree, we find a way to agree.

 

[Zundfolge]

He's rich and famous--or, used to be rich...

He's got kind of a baby face too ... he's gonna be famous where he's going

 

[rugerdude]

Yeah, I was referencing that. Hope he gets what he deserves.

Well, thank you guys for your input. I need to sign off now, but I'll check in again tomorrow and let my father know of this.

 

[mp510]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/ltright.htm

See specifically:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/transcripts/ltfour.htm
It's a pretty easy to understand cartoon that helps educate the viewer on straw purchases.

 

[rdhood]

Now in the case of the OP, he's a minor child and as such has zero right to property (unless he's been emancipated by the court) ... so "his" money is actually his parent's money ... so by way of that technicality, his father used his own money to purchase the guns and therefore is the "actual purchaser".

Yep.

 

[nezumi]

I'm in a similar situation (although for a silly reason).

My wife and I are buying a gun. She doesn't have a driver's license or state ID, therefore can't be run through NICS. Can I buy her a gun with our shared money?

Related, I like seeing numbers saying 'x number of people own guns'. If I gift it to her, is there any paperwork I can do to make sure she's counted as a female with a gun when they get those demographics?

 

[Rumble]

Nezumi -

I am not a lawyer - I'm just a Google searcher. But it looks like you can gift firearms to your spouse, parent, child, or sibling (etc.) in MD. However, the recipient must send an application to transfer/purchase a firearm to the Secretary of the Maryland State Police within 5 days of receiving the firearm. (I found this info on http://www.mdgunsafety.com/mspfaq.htm)

I don't know what that form looks like, but I assume that it would require the recipient to show residency via DL or something similar. Therefore, my guess is that you cannot purchase a handgun and gift it to your wife, if she can't provide the necessary documentation to complete the application.

But I could be wrong.

 

[joab]

My wife and I are buying a gun

There is only one buyer on the 4473
There is no space for a co owner, so you buy the gun and it is also hers by community property laws

 

[Art Eatman]

Looks like to me that the best way to deal with it is that whatever gets bought is owned by the purchaser, but is used as a family gun. Son/daughter/wife is the most-often user.

Helluva note when honest folks gotta play mind games and word games to avoid trouble with Big Nanny. However, it's been that way for several thousand years...

Art

 

[Sistema1927]

Isn't it sad that we even have to have this thread?

The BATF, creating criminals since 1934.

All those gun control laws, and no impact on crime. Heck, I am old enough to have taken my lawn mowing money down to the Western Auto store in order to buy myself my own .22 rifle AT AGE TWELVE. Seems to me that violent crime was much less in those days.

 

[kludge]

I think it's kinda obvious that when an adult buys a Savage Cub, or a Chipmink, or most youth models for that matter... it's not for him/her.

 

[waterhouse]

I think it's kinda obvious that when an adult buys a Savage Cub, or a Chipmunk, or most youth models for that matter... it's not for him/her.

And there is nothing illegal about that either. There is no straw purchase if a father or Aunt or friend of the family buys a GIFT for a son or nephew or brother or anyone else.

 

[nezumi]

Well, in that case, since I have a boy who will be old enough to shoot in another 9 years, I can say it's a 'family gun'. If I didn't have kids though, it might be tough to say it belonged to anyone other than my wife or the cats.

I'll have to ask my local gun shop about that form. Hopefully they'll understand these stupid laws better than I.

 

[Crunker1337]

I believe there is an exception if your parent/guardian bought it for you.

 

[rugerdude]

Well I've slept on it, and here's my conclusion:

My dad bought/is going to buy the gun. He has full rule over it regardless of whether or not I chip in. If he ends up having little interest in it and allows me to shoot it, well that's fine with me. His birthday is actually on the day of the show, so say I give him a few hundred dollars for being a good dad.

Nothing to prosecute, not worth the trouble anyway as I'm in no way affecting anyone else (oops, forgot that that doesn't matter).

I over reacted a bit with this thread and had lost sight of the fact that the guns really are his. For me to shoot, but belonging to him. There is really no further issue here.

Thanks guys.