Street Robberies And You - The Basics

[IllHunter]

by a friend on facebook, don't know if it's been crosslinked before. It's high value, low hanging fruit. Read & Heed.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html

 

[mortablunt]

Favorited, thank you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Street Robberies and You - The Basics, that arfcom post is called.

Definitely worth reading, I think. A bit more blunt and brutal that what's sometimes offered on the topic, but then we aren't talking about a garden party here. The realities of being on the wrong end of an assault on the street are pretty blunt and brutal too.

What we're about here in ST&T is working up to being able to deal successfully with those realities on the street. Training and practice in the necessary skillsets is part of it. Knowing the opposition - the enemy if you will - is part of it too. Most of us who wind up facing the threat of street violence at all will only have it happen once or maybe twice in our lifetimes, if the current statistics hold that is.

Street thugs practice violence and the threat of violence on a regular basis. It's what they do for a living. For the resource predators among them, the most common type of predator, you are just one more job of work, to be processed as quickly and efficiently as possible. Victimizing you probably won't even raise his heartbeat much if at all.

Of course, the process predator is different, YOU are payoff in the crime, not your stuff. That's the difference between a resource predator and a process predator. The resource predator wants your money and any of your stuff that is portable and worth easy money to him. He wants to get paid and get away to go on to the next payoff.

The process predator wants your body, your pain, your terror, and the pleasure he can extract from those things. He wants you, not your stuff. He wants to get you to a nice private place where he can have his way with you. He doesn't want YOU to get away, because YOU are the payoff. He expects to leave once he's good and ready, after you're in no position to resist any more. Resist anything. Ever.

Of course there is no reason to expect that there isn't crossover between the two predator types sometimes. A robbery might start out as a resource crime and shift to a process crime in mid stride. Making assumptions can be dangerous. If you're going to make assumptions about criminals, you're probably safer to assume the worst and react accordingly as events unfold.

The big issue with those of us who have no or little experience with street violence is successfully accessing the skills we have trained and practiced when we suddenly need them. The transition is not always easy or successful. I'd like to point those of you who are interested to a couple more posts that I think fit in well with the arfcom post linked in the OP on this thread.

Those two posts are at Rory Miller's blog, and you can find them at http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2012/02/first-3-to-5.html

and

http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2012/01/transitions.html

hth,

lpl

 

[WilleRupert]

That was a great article.

 

[xXxplosive]

Worked in Newark, NJ for over 20 yrs............this guy is right on.

 

[smalls]

Awesome article, thanks for the link.

 

[Al Thompson]

Be aware on another forum, couple of SMEs recommended against talking to the bad guys.

It may work for the OP as he has a lot of experience dealing with scumbags, but my experience is limited and I hope it stays that way.

 

[heeler]

What a breath of fresh air that linked post was from AR15.com.
Instead of all the lawyers guild hand wringging of "your going to be in trouble" etc. this guy just puts it out there the way it is.
Probably one of if not the best reads I have read here in S&T.
But as usual Ymmv.
And some will not approve of this message.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Talking to bad guys is like talking to LEOs - it needs to be done correctly and VERY carefully, if at all.

Many times bad guys will use some verbal stratagem in the course of approaching a prospective victim, in order to justify and conceal their approach. The prospective victim gets so wrapped up mentally in processing the bad guy's request (can I get a cigarette, do you have the time, do you have change for a dollar etc) that the intended victim doesn't grok that he's in the process of being attacked. Let's see. Why IS it that a complete and total stranger is approaching you in the parking lot? Could it have anything to do with you being THE ONLY OTHER PERSON in the parking lot?

Learn how to fend off verbal approaches from strangers in conditions and situations that should have all your spidey senses tingling. I just started a thread titled "He was robbing you when he asked you for the cigarette" for just this reason... see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642705 .

My suggestion is to follow Southnarc's MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts) approach when dealing with potential bad guys ( http://shivworks.com/?cat=14 ), and most of all keep your situational awareness peaked out as best you can.

 

[ACP]

I notice he didn't explicity endorse carrying a $1,400 custom-made handgun with the latest high-tech finish, titanium parts, figure 8 nightsights and $50 ammo. Just put three rounds between the collarbone and bottom ribs.

Great advice.

 

[Serenity]

An excellent article; I really liked the conversational "tone".

 

[1911 guy]

Very good article. It summarizes well some classes I took a while back.

 

[ChCx2744]

When you are confronted by a stranger that gives you a bad feeling in the street, like the author said, the answer is always no. To a stranger that gives you that bad feeling, in that moment, you are no longer a smoker, you are not a person who knows the time, you are not a person who lets people use your phone, you are not a map, you are not a taxi, you are not a loan office and you most definitely are not a victim.

I like his approach on when to draw and when to fire. Many people do not understand that there are situations where you are legally justified in drawing your gun. Most people are under the notion that they MUST WAIT until the MOMENT they are about to fire, just to draw their gun...That can get you killed.

 

[Bhpruett]

Additional Thoughts - Beware iPhones in public or talking on any cell.

The article was great. One additional bit of advice is to be very careful about showing an iPhone in public, because they are red-hot target for robbery. I read yesterday that the number 1 crime now in Washington D.C. is street thugs knocking people down and grabbing iPhones, because iPhones are very hot (so to speak) in the stolen goods market. I assume the same is true elsewhere. The police in DC are strongly recommending the use of extreme discretion in flashing iPhones on the street in public. In other words, while they don't approve of carrying a concealed gun, they highly recommend a concealed iPhone.

Of course, it goes without saying that it is nearly impossible to maintain awareness of your surroundings (not just bad guys, but curbs, other stationary objects, etc.) while talking on the phone, texting, etc., and the thugs know that, but doing so on an iPhone can make you a thug magnet.

I suppose walking down the street fiddling with a pistol instead of a phone might make one a less attractive target, but that is probably not a good idea either.

 

[sidheshooter]

^^^totally OT, but: Last December, I bought a new router from the apple store downtown. The sales guy actually cautioned me to stay alert when he gave me the apple logo bag; they've had enough folks mugged over carrying one to issue the warning.

Makes sense when you think about it, and good for apple for allowing their staff to bring up the targeting concern.

 

[CTGunner]

Not long ago I was walking through a big city downtown neighborhood after dark with 4 coworkers. We were headed back to our cars after a business dinner. We were all wearing suits, all men, none of us small guys. We weren't on our way more than a block before being approached by a man who wanted to engage us in discussion - "Hey what's up Fellas, what are you doing tonight...." There is no doubt in my mind that he was up to no good. We didn't allow him to get close, fanning out and moving quickly. He relented, maybe we were lucky.

What surprised me most was his level of boldness. I am cautious, almost to an extreme. I figured walking back with 4 guys we would have no problems...I thought who would want to engage a group of 5? But this guy was ready to run his game right then and there without hesitation.

 

[Marlin60Man]

About five or more years ago I was going to a pizza shop with a friend of mine. On the way in there were these two guys hanging around--didn't strike me as too odd as there are benches outside of the shop, but they just didn't seem like they were up to any good. One of them just asked if I had a light, and I said, "Nope," and we just walked inside to get our pizza. The whole time we were inside waiting for the pizza I noticed them still outside, and could swear they were watching us.

Anyway, long story short, I didn't say anything to my friend because I didn't want to seem like I was being paranoid. We walked out of the store, and the guy asked me again, "Do you have a light?" and I said, "I already told you no!" We walked a little bit past them and before I knew what was going on one of them had ran past my friend, taken the pizza, and my friend had pursued him into the parking lot about 50 yards away and was holding on to the pizza kicking at the guy's legs.

I just remember seeing the guy's friend closing in on my friend and I didn't want it to become a 2-on-1 affair and really didn't know what these guys' intentions were, so I pulled out a little pocket knife I had at the time and just started kind of quickly approaching, pretty much thinking, "Don't trip!" and not really knowing what I was going to do when I got up to the frenzy. In any case it never happened because the guy's friend saw me with the knife and said something that caused his friend to finally break off, and they both ran down the adjacent street.

I always go back and forth on whether it was really the best reaction or not... These days whenever I see something like that, I tell the people at the store, "Hey, there's someone shady looking hanging around outside." Sometimes they'll just say, "Oh, that's a customer they just finished eating," and that's fine, other times I've apparently gotten drug dealers and what not ran off. I definitely don't feel shy about saying something because I feel paranoid anymore.

In any case, I don't think that pulling the knife was the greatest move, but then again the guy fighting my friend for the pizza may have been just about to pull out a weapon of his own, so I will never really know. I do know that the guys weren't up to any good and didn't call the police to report being threatened with a knife (not really sure they ever even saw it honestly ), so just looking at it for what it was, it ended pretty well.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"What surprised me most was his level of boldness. I am cautious, almost to an extreme. I figured walking back with 4 guys we would have no problems...I thought who would want to engage a group of 5? But this guy was ready to run his game right then and there without hesitation."


Sure he was. Not so bold if you think about it. Four b usiness guys in suits, probably unarmed, and him with a Glock under his shirt. $ to 1 not bad odds if the 1 has a gun and the 4 don't.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Definitely a good read, though I'm not that paranoid. I can understand why he is, but out here where I'm at, when someone approaches asking about your dog, they really do just want to know about your dog. I've done it myself, ended up making business contacts in the process.

You need to adapt your strategy according to your environment and the corresponding threat level. Out here, be standoffish with people when they ask for a light or something, and pretty soon you'll have a reputation around town for being a jerk. Of course, in a small town, strangers with nefarious intentions stick out like a sore thumb; Trying to not garner attention in these parts will actually draw attention to you.

On the other hand, when I'm in the city, I do adjust my outgoing and friendly nature. I'm still moreso than the average urbanite, but then, I'm pretty good at judging folks and also not an ideal target for a number of reasons (Physically imposing, don't dress or otherwise appear as though I have cash/valuables, drive a 22 year old truck, etc.). I've only had one person I didn't know become hostile with me, and he changed his tune when I didn't back down and my build was no longer concealed with a bulky winter coat.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while everything the author of that post said has merit, I find it disheartening that some people have become so jaded and suspicious of their fellow man. I'm of the opinion that people are mostly good, and that we should try to be the friendly, social and helpful creatures that God intended whenever possible. That doesn't mean we should put a scruffy interstate hitchhiker in the minivan with our wives and children or give every bum on the corner all the change we have, but it does mean that we do better as a community, society and world if we try to give others the benefit of the doubt and treat them courteously and respectfully unless/until they behave in a manner undeserving of such.

YMMV.

 

[Dr Dave]

A couple of months ago I was out walking at about 11pm (my car was dead). I see across the street three young guys huddled together under a telephone pole. Something immediately didn't look right, they weren't 'hanging' they were huddled up. I didn't have a gun and all I had was my Ka-Bar, in a leather sheath on my hip, hidden under my untucked shirt.

I looked at them to let they'd know them I'd seen them but didn't want to stare them down. One of them immediately starts calling to me, 'hey dude, do you have change for a twenty?' They most definitely did NOT need change for a twenty; they were opportunistic predators looking for easy prey.

Now I do not know how to fight with a knife nor have I had any hand to hand training, so really all I had was a bluff, I'm sure they could have outrun me too. I looked hard at them, and just undid the clip on my leather sheath through my shirt. That shut them up. I wasn't scared till I got home, but I was fully prepared to die in the streets right there. All I had was a bluff. If they'd split up and come after me, I'd have drawn the Ka Bar, mustered the most serious face I could, and advanced towards them. After I got home, I got scared, and think about that quite a bit; it was close.

 

[Shadow 7D]

You meet all types in the service

I was once told by brothers from the hood, that I was probably one of the only white guys who could walk through Harlem and make it to the other side unmolested.

it came down to 3 thing
I'm oblivious
I'm happy
and I'm nuts (well psycho was tossed around a bit)

gist was, 'brothers' wouldn't know what to make of me (innocent, cop or a REALLY scary dude)
now, years later, I realize they are talking about victim selection and "interview"

 

[ZeSpectre]

The article was great. One additional bit of advice is to be very careful about showing an iPhone in public, because they are red-hot target for robbery.

The irony to that is that the instant a "reported" iPhone reconnects to a network...yer busted.

 

[MuleRyder]

That was a good article, but one variable in particular wasn't covered and it could be a big "IF". He covered when to draw and when to fire...good. What about when you draw your weapon and the BG still advances on you, but shows no weapon? In his article, he assumes that the BG will turn tail and run upon seeing your weapon. He then goes straight to firing when you see the BGs weapon.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Ryder,

There's some discussion of that sort of situation at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=643174&page=2 . The class is Southnarc's MUC, or managing unknown contacts, which is integrated with ECQC, or extreme close quarters concepts (see shivworks links below). It teaches the best approach I have seen so far to dealing with someone who approaches directly towards you but displays no weapon and verbalizes no ill intent.

See also:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/sn.htm

http://www.socnet.com/archive/index.php/t-79877.html

http://shivworks.com/ and http://shivworks.com/?page_id=881

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_9_19/2...e_Quarters_Conceps_Class__hosted_by_MDTS.html

etc.

This is why we emphasize training so much here...

 

[k-frame]

What about when you draw your weapon and the BG still advances on you, but shows no weapon?

Based on what I've been advised the fear of imminent danger and threat is the key. If you feel that you (or family) are in immediate risk of being badly harmed or killed - even by somebody apparently unarmed, you may use deadly force. In short, it's a judgement call.

In my case if someone younger than me, or even my age or older, or in better physical shape (which wouldn't be difficult but let's not go there) or even fat and flabby but is advancing on me even though I have a weapon in my hand then I have to assume he is not planning to give me a bear hug and a kiss on the cheek.

ETA: And from the state of Georgia:

GA 16-3-21
A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23, a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."