Strength/longevity of various 9mm pistols.

[tbob38]

I wonder why so many are stuck on FBI requirements for ammo. Very few of us are FBI agents. The Border patrol has far far more experience than all the other federal agencies in gunfighting, combined, and they seem to think that much more than 12" penetration is undesirable.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Why are we even discussing ammo in the Autoloaders sub-forum?

The OP's question was about relative strength of various 9mm pistols. This ammo drift has gone on long enough, lets try to get back on track to addressing the question asked in the OP

 

[mavracer]

Any ammo over standard pressure is going to standard put more stress on the gun than a standard pressure load. What effect that will have on a gun depends upon the construction of the gun. No one can reliably answer the OP’s question because there is no comparative data tear on gun wear and tear from different pressure ammo to support an accurate answer.

I am taking a different stance on the topic of +P+ ammo. I did a lot of research and test firing before deciding on 95 grain Underwood Extreme Defender ammo for my PPS M2 with its 3.18 inch barrel. Below are the stats on that ammo according to pressure rating.

Standard: Velocity = 1400. Energy = 395 ft. Lbs. Penetration = 15 inches
+P: Velocity = 1475. Energy = 435 ft. Lbs. Penetration = 16 inches
+P+ Velocity = 1550. Energy = 480 ft. Lbs. Penetration. = 17 inches

The three rounds all meet the FBI penetration specification of 12 to 18 inches. The +P+ does penetrate the deepest and it has 85 more ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy. That is a 22% increase. However what is the net gain of that extra energy in a handgun used at CQB distances. Answer is that there is no conclusive testing to rely on for the answer. Theory is all we have to go on. So consider the following.

To be good defensive round it should penetrate 12 to 18 inches in organic gel covers with 4 layers of denim. This is from a description of the FBI ammo testing.

Penetration depths between 14.0-16.0 inches in the gelatin blocks are rewarded while under-penetration and penetration over 18.0” are penalized. Given that the FBI Protocol came to be due to an otherwise fatal hit that failed to stop one of the Miami shooters, due to under-penetration, bullets that penetrate less than 12.0” are penalized heavily …………………​

So it seems that 14 to 16 inches of penetration are preferred by the FBI. Fo my ammo Standard and +P meet that parameter. My round falls between the two depths. A good read with more info on FBI testing is at: http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI Ammunition Protocol/FBI Ammunition Protocol.html

Higher velocities generally serve to make JHP ammo expand more reliably. Too much expansion will slow the bullet down inside the target. Too little or no expansion will cause JHP to act like FMJ and over-penetrate. So the benefit of over-standard pressure round is generally deeper penetration and more reliable expansion. But compare the difference between +P and +P+ in the comparison I made above. +P+ is 75 ft/sec and 45 ft. Lbs. more than +P and offers an unnecessary 1 inch more penetration. That is practically meaning less in a gunfight.

If you do the research I believe you will find that the eight of JHP bullet is more important than velocity when it comes to making a more damaging wound. At least that was what I found when I went to 9mm from 40 SW and from a 4 inch to a 3.18 inch barrel. I settled on Federal HST 147 grain JHP. It is lethal and meets FBI specs out of a 3” barrel. I do not need rounds that are greater than standard pressure to defend myself.

About a year ago I switched to Underwood Extreme Defender 95 grain ammo at standard pressure. It is a expanding, monolithic (solid copper) bullet that create wound cavity by fluid transfer rather than expansion. It is more effective than JHP so I no longer concern myself with expansion. It also offers barrier penetration that puts JHP duty ammo to shame. I have no need for + type ammo.

Have you chronographed those thru your PPS. From the test I saw they must use a 5"+ barrel to get their advertised velocity.
In my experience I'd guess you're under 1200

 

[TonyAngel]

Wow, this thread has gone off on a tangent.

Anyway, I had a road day today and as I usually do, I started thinking about stuff that doesn’t make me any money but costs me money.

Well, probably not as many as some, but probably more than most...I’ve owned and shot over 200 handguns in my lifetime. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I’m not a collector, I’m a shooter and really take no pride in ownership. For me, guns are a means to an end.

As I thought about it, I developed a subjective opinion...polymer guns are better than all metal guns. That is, guns that are made of all metal. Better in the sense that they transfer less subjective recoil and are tougher.

I know I’m inviting some flaming here, but I’m thinking back and realized that over the years I’ve had problems with stainless galling, cracked frames, bent slide releases, etc and all with all metal guns. The only thing that all metal guns have on plastics is the trigger and that gap is closing.

I’ve never had a failure of those sorts with plastic guns. Honestly, if I was told that the zombies were coming and I have to choose one pistol to survive with, it would probably be a Glock 34. My rifle would be an AR in 9mm that takes...Glock mags.

Ever get curious and google “lifespan”...of any particular aluminum or steel framed pistol? What you find on some might surprise you.

 

[mjsdwash]

your CZ will be fine. I have a friend that shoots a 75 a lot, and lends it out to a group that can afford ammo, but cant afford a firearm, it was shooting 20k per year, for a while, and last I saw, at round count 30K+ it looked near new. Same with Glocks. Not the same with Aluminum frames. +p+ doesn't really mean much. I got some Ranger LE +P+ that chronoes right there with my middle of the road 9mm, pushing around 32000 PSI with Bullseye, below max charges. For some generally interesting info search the internet for "metalurgical fatigue limits" to see why Poly and steel so heavily outperform aluminum/zink/brass

 

[1942bull]

Have you chronographed those thru your PPS. From the test I saw they must use a 5"+ barrel to get their advertised velocity.Many years late
In my experience I'd guess you're under 1200

:

No, I have not chronographed any round ever. While velocity is a factor I know from experience that accuracy is the most important factor of self defense shooting. I helped clear building for two weeks in the battle for Hue City in 1968 in Nam. I did it with my primary weapon, a M1011 A1 pistol. This is why I learned. The relatively slow velocity and heavy weight 45 ACP bullet would not stop an enemy with a shot to the arm, but a shoe to the face killed him. Acurcy is the most important factor in a gun fight. Let me out it this way: a 22 LR in the eye will stop an attacker more reliable than a 45 ACP in the shoulder when the CQB distance is under 50 feet. So for me I want the round with the best barrier penetration and most damaging wound channel at 25 feet that I can get, and I do not give a damn how fast the bullet is traveling.

I have a CT green Laserguard on my PPS M2. I have sighted it with a bore sighting laser with a red dot. My CT laser dot now overlaps the red dot of the bore laser at 25 feet. I took it to the range and shot groups of five FMJ in a 1.75 inch circle. So ai do not care how fast the bullet traveled. All I care about is was my POA and POI as close as I could hope for, and whether penetration and wound cavity would likely incapacitate, At the end of the day stats mean nothing and result mean everything, If you can hit an enemy in the eye with a 22 LR at 25 feet you can win the gun battle. Accuracy is always the major factor,

 

[Rock185]

tbob38, I don't think there is any way to definitively rate strength and life of your CZ or other pistols with +P+ ammo use. I think it might be informative to note that Illinois State Police used +P+ in alloy framed S&W pistols for years, without reports of excessive wear or catastrophic failures. Some of those pistols reportedly fired thousands rounds of +P+.

FWIW, I'll share my humble experience in using more than a little Winchester and Federal 9MM +P+ and equivalent handloads over a period of years. Not including the thousands of rounds of +P, NATO, etc. used. I have used 9MM +P+ in S&Ws, Colts, Dan Wessons, HKs, SIGs, Rugers, Glocks, CZ75s and an STI. I've not used +P+ in Beretta 92s or Walther P38s, and only sparingly in FN/Browning Hi Powers. I didn't run any torture tests, but I've not been able to detect any excessive wear or damage in any of the pistols I've used +P+ in. In chronographing many types of 9MM in different barrel lengths, I found it interesting that factory CorBon 9MM ammunition, rated as only +P, often generated velocities equal to or higher than Winchester and Federal +P+.

I still sometimes carry the Federal 9BPLE. I'm not quite as old as you, but I think I'm really going to have to step it up if I'm going to wear out any pistols by using 9MM +P+ ammunition